General newbie request for handgun experience, opinions

[Deus Machina]

Fewer things for a new shooter to screw up. I've seen many new shooters forget that they had a safety and have a mild panic moment when their gun didn't go bang when they expected it to. Also seen them forget to put the safety back on before holstering. Both of those things can range from mildly unsafe to fatal, depending on the specific circumstances.

Exactly. The opposite is true, too, without safety in mind. "Glock leg" is a term for a reason. Your finger comes off the trigger before you holster the gun.
I'm good about that. I prefer trigger discipline before the chance to forget a step in an emergency.

The CZ 75D is a great pistol, but it's basically the same size as a Glock 19 (apparently the OP was unaware of that when he wrote his list) and it's going to be pretty much impossible to find one in the $500-$600 range, at least as far as I can tell.

Yeah, that's the range they were when I got mine a couple presidents and a plague ago. IMO they're worth it, but they haven't been 'cheap gems' for a long time. If something else works just as well, you can end up with a gun and some good range time for the same price.

If in doubt, test the Glocks. Not much to go wrong there if they fit. End up with a Glock and a good day at the range for the price of a CZ in stock. Less than one they have to order.

 

[beagler]

Hard to beat a p365xl. I have small hands and it feels great!

 

[westernrover]

It's a good thing you're taking seriously the responsibility for your security and that of those in the mantle of your protection.
Since it would appear you don't have a handgun at all, you might consider getting one specifically for training purposes.
Some people recommend 22 LR pistols like the Ruger Mark IV or Glock 44 for practice. A 22 LR pistol is inexpensive to shoot and it allows you to focus on fundamentals like sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger control without being disturbed by heavier recoil. One drawback is that these pistols are not often used in training classes. I'm talking about classes like those at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Rogers Shooting School, Sig Academy, ITTS, and more.
By jumping in with a capable defensive pistol (like a 9mm), you'll have access to all the training that's available. You'll have to start out dealing with more recoil, but the kind of pistol you choose will have a big effect on this as well as the cartridge it fires.
Choosing an ultralight polymer concealed carry pistol in 9mm, or just a lightweight polymer pistol in 40 or 45 risks making the process of getting up to speed on skills all that more difficult. You can choose a steel pistol, or maybe a larger aluminum pistol in 9mm to keep the experience tame.
If you should ever find yourself in combat with an adversary, you want all the advantages in the fight. A few extra ounces of weight saved is no advantage in a fight. On the other hand, if the gun weighs so much you won't carry it, it won't help you when it's miles away at your time of need. Getting an ultralight gun so that you're willing to carry it even though you can't shoot it well is not the best solution. Instead, get the gun that you will be able to shoot the most proficiently. Get training. Validate your skills. Be determined to deal with the weight until you're ready to attempt to transition to a lightweight gun and have validated your ability with it has not degraded.
I'm advising you from personal experience. I started with what I was willing to carry: very lightweight guns that were hard to shoot well. When I first tried a gun that was easy to shoot well, I became determined to carry it in spite of the weight. Since then, I've used it in about 100 hours of training classes. I haven't "graduated" to the plastic guns yet. I still want the advantage. I will say though, the polymer guns are generally a lot cheaper.

 

[Ethan Verity]

I have the M&P 9mm Shield, it's an excellent gun and you can't go wrong with that choice!

Are you sure something like a Glock 19 or M&P 9mm is too big to hold? They come with different size backstraps to fit all hand sizes, I would see how an M&P 9mm feels in your hand, with a size small backstrap installed. For home defense where carry isn't an issue, I personally would want a full size 17+1 9mm or at least 15+1 compact for home defense, rather than a smaller 10+1 micro-compact Shield.

 

[Ignition Override]

gunny2: It appears that you've not had a chance to handle any of the CZ 75 series, which I'm fairly sure would all have similar ergos, other than minor difference in stock trigger feels.

My PO1 had the same trigger feel as my CZ PCR (75D). Many guys send them to Cajun Gun Works for an improvement of the double-action trigger, but for me it's a decent stock trigger.

If you belong to a gun club or sometimes frequent an indoor range, you could probably find out who owns a 75.
You could leave your phone number with staff, so that you might meet up with somebody willing to let you handle their CZ 75D or very similar model.

Maybe my style of persistence isn't very common. This might not be for you. A member of THR with a 75.... near you --who reads this -- could take a little personal initiative.....
You're probably not in west TN, otherwise I would contact you to try out two of my handguns.

 

[illinoisburt]

Rather than stating some choice of mine is the best for you, my suggestion is to visit a range with rental facility and try shooting a variety of handguns to see which is most comfortable and natural for yourself. It's generally not much for than the cost of the range fee and in house ammunition to do so.

 

[Tallball]

A heavier pistol is much easier to shoot than a light one.

My polymer CZ75 compact clone is a very nice shooter. I think it would fit small hands. The magazine holds around 12 and the trigger is very good. I've owned two of them and have been impressed. They're made in Turkey and are inexpensive. The design is about 50 years old now, so you could say the bugs have been worked out.

My small single-stack 9mm Ruger LC9s pro and Glock 43 are both very adequate. My friend has a 43 also.

The small doublestack 9mm pistols like the 365 and Hellcat are extremely popular right now.

Lots of good choices. If you lean towards something heavier and as large as you can hold comfortably, it will be easier to shoot, but annoying to try to CC.

SAR B6C 9mm

• Tallball
• Jul 27, 2019

 

[WisBorn]

Welcome to the THR....
You have a great list of options. I would stick with a 9mm. The 5.7 available ammo options are not enough for someone starting out as a new handgun owner.

I would find a rental range near you and try as many of the guns on your list that you can. There is one that you will like more than the others.

Glock, Smith, Springfield, Ruger, CZ, and many others are all well made. Shooting them is the best way to decide.

If no rental range near you! Go to a gun club or public range. Shooters love to share and give new Shooters an opportunity to try new guns. Just ask them questions about there guns ....

 

[JTQ]

- I want a smaller gun as I have smaller hands (so for ex. the Glock 19 and similar are out). Smaller and lighter is better.

Realize for most with small hands, trigger reach is the issue and not the length (top to bottom)/height of a grip. The trigger reach on a G17, G19, G26 will all be the same. Most will find a G17 more comfortable and easier to shoot than the smaller guns.

Also, as several have mentioned above, full size guns are usually easier to shoot than little guns.

I always recommend those new to shooting pistols start with a full size/duty size pistol. They will be easier to shoot accurately, have lower felt recoil, and in general, the shooting experience will generally be more pleasant. If this is a home protection gun, there is no advantage to choosing the little gun as you don't need to conceal it, you don't need light weight for all day carry, and the full size gun will also have full size capacity.

What you need to do is find a full size/duty size gun that you can comfortably reach the important controls. Comfortably reaching the trigger, and if it has a manual safety, such as a 1911, Hi-Power, or CZ75B (not that I'm recommending those guns) are important controls to reach. Most people need to shift a gun in their hand to reach the mag release or slide release/slide lock.

I often share this Shannon Smith video when we are talking expectations for reaching controls. At the 2:05 mark he talks about the mag release and 7:45 the slide release.

 

[JTQ]

The full size S&W M&P and Beretta APX are two duty size guns that are small hand friendly and may be worth trying.

 

[FL-NC]

Of what you listed, I can vouch for the S&W shield. I carry one. I would def. advise choosing one in 9mm- more effective than 380, cheaper to fire, and a better selection of ammo in ball (practice) and hollow point.

 

[dweis]

I suggest that you consider the 9mm Security 9 Compact for several reasons. I am a smaller guy with smaller hands. Getting a good grip on. Some pistols can be difficult. The pistols 1.02 inch width and grip angle make it easy to get a good drip.the 3.42 inch barrel is more than adequate shooting out to 50 yards. It weighs 22 ozs unloaded with a 6,5 inch overall length and 4.35 height with the flat based magazine. The height increase with the magazine with pinky extension, but the extension makes for a grip. It comes with two 10 round magazines, It also accepts 15 round magazines, which I prefer for additional grip surface and added capacity.

The pistol is my everything gun: EDC and home defense. I have shot over 1200 rounds in the 20 months I have owned it. I have only experienced one failure (to feed), and that was because I limp-waisted the gun. No other failures of any type.

Ruger has excellent customer service. Their guns do not have warranties. Ruger just fixes any gun it made id something goes wrong. It is my fourth Ruger over the past 15 or so years. I have never any repairs needed on any of those guns. The pistol has received rave reviews on the Internet and on You Tube. It is budget priced, with a new street price of about $325. That’’s a bargain for a fine pistol from a great gunmaker.

Of course it might nor be the pistoll for you, but I encourage you to consider it. It might just be a good choice for you as it is for me. The photos show the pistol with the 15 and 10 round flat base magazines.

 

[Spats McGee]

Welcome to THR, @gunny2!

Looking to buy a handgun for home defense. I've fired guns before (veteran here) so not totally clueless and have been doing research and watching some videos; also went to a gun shop to handle a few. Where I'm at:

- I want a smaller gun as I have smaller hands (so for ex. the Glock 19 and similar are out). Smaller and lighter is better.
- I'm pretty set on getting a 9mm, though for the right gun I'd be OK with a .380.
- I don't care if one gun is a bit more than the other, but not looking to go much over the $500-600 range.

Here's my short list right now:

CZ 75D
Glock 43X
Sig Sauer P365
S&W MP9 Shield
S&W MP Shield EZ
Springfield Hellcat

The Ruger 57 also intrigues me as a different kind of option. It's a little bigger and heavier than I'd care for, but the 20 rd mag and very low recoil are appealing.

A couple of people have noted that actually shooting a gun is a good way to help you make the decision. They're right. Holding a gun, looking down the sights is one thing. Learning how it behaves under recoil is a little different. If you have the opportunity to rent or borrow guns, do it. It will help inform your choice.

I would describe my hands as "on the smallish side of medium." IOW, I'm not a Tommy Tinyhands, but a G19 is just a smidge too fat through the grip for me. I have to slightly rotate the pistol in my grip to hit the mag release. The Shield line of pistols is a whole 'nother ballgame, though. There are Shields in 1.0, 2.0, and Plus. I've had 3 Shields and still have 2. I got a 1.0 right before the 2.0s came out in 2017 (I think it was). 8 rounds of 9mm, fantastic ergonomics for me, and 100% reliable. Not 99.9%. 100%. It fed, fired and ejected every round that I put in the mag. Granted, that was only 750-800 rounds, but I sold it to my buddy, who says it's still going strong. I only sold it because I upgraded to the Plus, and a good friend needed it more than I needed it in my safe. Right before the Plus came out, I grabbed a 4" PC Shield 2.0 in .45. It's had some feeding issues, but some of that might be my error. When the Plus came out, though . . . . ooh, la, la! Thirteen rounds of 9mm in an almost identical package to my 1.0. How could I pass that up? It took 100-150 rounds to settle in, but it's been 100% reliable after that. It is quite likely the last belt-carry CC pistol I'll ever buy, and it goes in the nightstand for HD duty at the end of my day.

You have a good starting list, but this is a Golden Age of pistols (especially carry pistols). There are more high-quality pistols than you can shake a stick at these days. Obviously, I have way more experience with the Shield line than with the others on your list, so I'll suggest a Shield Plus (which isn't on your list, but should be, IMHO). However, the inclusion of the Ruger 5.7 tells me that you really do mean home defense, and concealed carry probably isn't on your horizon. That being the case, S&W makes a 4" PC Shield Plus. I don't have one (yet), but @Shipwreck does, and he's pretty fond of it. I think it would serve you well for HD and transition pretty well to CC, if and when that time comes.

@armoredman is one of our resident CZ experts, and I feel certain that CZ has one or more models that would suit your needs. Hopefully, he'll be around in a while to help out.

Good luck on your search!

 

[sgt127]

Being cursed with dainty (but strong) hands. I’m weird for single stacks.

I carry a P239 in 9mm or 357 SIG.

Both, out of production.

I’ve owned several Kahr Pistols. The K9 has plenty of weight to be an absolute joy to shoot.

I need to add another one to my stable.

Basically a flat 8 shot revolver with a really good DA trigger. About as simple as one can get.

 

[film495]

go handle them all at a shop, find a couple that you like the way they fit your hands, and find a range that will let you try some of them. most ranges will rent for range sessions from what I've seen.

 

[21H40]

I find the Springfield XDM to have significantly better geometry and more comfortable grips than Glock 19 while being less expensive than the CZ's. I recommend adding some version of the XDM to your list - it shoots well in the mid-size and full size versions. Even my teenage daughters handle the full size version easily.

I also like the extra capacity.

 

[jstert]

may i be the first to suggest a revolver? how about a s&w or similar, 4”, six-shot, k-frame chambered in 38sp (or 357mag)? why?
-digests a wide variety of mild to wild ammo.
-accepts easily swapped grips out to meet an infinite variety of hand sizes.
-is legal just about everywhere.
-can be run a bit fast with practiced speedloaders (that are cheaper than pistol mags) or accurately slow in single action mode.
-it goes bang every time the trigger is pulled.
-intuitive manual of arms so anybody at home who needs to use it in extremis can pretty much do so.

there are certainly many modern, faster, larger capacity, excellent, semiauto pistols that shoot the cheaper 9mm round. however a decent 357/38 revolver is timeless. if you don’t like it you can keep it secured forever or sell it for a decent price. my only firearm for 25 years, due to my work/living locales, was a taurus 85 (brazilian-made clone of a s&w j-frame) 38sp, five-shot, steel, snubbie revolver. i felt well-protected.

please don’t neglect trying a revolver when you rent some handguns at the shooting range.

 

[Jim Watson]

True, a K frame (S&W 6 shot .38 or .357) is a serviceable weapon, simple to operate, takes some effort to master the double action.
But a J frame (S&W 5 shot .38 or similar like jstert"s Taurus) has the same fault as those small autos, smaller is not friendlier in a pistol.

 

[Atavar]

? No safety? Why would that be a desirable feature?

When the adrenaline is pumping and you are in the fog of war a safety is an easy thing to fumble and wonder why the gun didn’t go bang.
The whole purpose of a defense firearm is to go bang each and every time you pull the trigger.
The whole purpose of a safety is to keep the firearm from going bang.
Do you see the dichotomy here?
For a carry or defense firearm the best safety is don’t pull the trigger until you want to kill something.

 

[hdbiker]

I bought one just because I didn't have a small auto. Ruger LC9S PRO, 7 in the mag one in the chamber of 9MM plenty for any emergency. I amazed at how much fun this gun is, reliable and accurate as you'd expect

 

[westernrover]

It may be obvious or maybe not, but some of the reasons pistols have different grip sizes is to fit the magazines that have cartridges stacked in them various ways.


There are a lot of ways to stack cartridges in a magazine, and there are quite a few different width and length cartridges too. The two simplest ways to stack cartridges are :single stack" and "double stack," but there are also staggered columns that are in-between single and double in width, and double-stack, single-feed where the column is double-stacked at the bottom but narrows to single-stack for a longer portion at the top to allow a narrower grip.

Single-stack magazines and the guns that are designed for them to fit into generally hold fewer cartridges, but they can hold larger cartridges like 45 ACP or 50 AE without the grip being absurdly wide. Of course there are a few people that can be comfortable with a double-stack 45, but the most popular 45 pistol, the 1911 is single stack.

Single-stack 9's can be very slim like the Glock 48. A higher capacity magazine adds (lead) weight to the pistol so long as it is filled. That weight has inertia that can decelerate the recoil making the shooting experience milder. The difference in the weight between a full magazine and the last shot is more dramatic with higher capacity magazines, and if the remainder of the pistol is especially lightweight, this difference will be more noticeable to the shooter and can affect their results. In other words, as the pistol's magazine is emptied, the weight can be dramatically lightened and the recoil can go dramatically up.

The width of the cartridges (from narrow 30 Super Carry to wide 45 ACP) and the way the cartridges are stacked in the magazine (single, double, etc.) have a big effect on the pistol grip size and shape. The other thing that affects this is the construction of the magazine itself, the grip frame, and any grip panels. Traditionally, magazines were made with sheet metal, inserted into a hollow steel grip frame, and wood grip panels were screwed to the outside. Your hand would wrap around all those things. The sides of magazines and the grip frames of pistols are sometimes made out of polymer. Polymer might have to be thicker to possess the same stiffness as sheet metal. Polymer grip frames are solid rather than hollow so the solid panel is definitely thicker than the empty space in a hollow grip frame, but the polymer grip frame does not need grip panels (traditionally wood). Some metal frame makers have opted to make solid metal grip frames with machined textures that also forgo grip panels -- a good example would be the Wilson Combat SF (solid frame) series. There are no construction methods that will always result in a narrower grip. It depends on how they're implemented, and often times a method that might be used to produce a narrower result will only be used to compensate for a wider cartridge or double-stack so the end result is a combination of many factors.

Bear in mind that a narrow grip feels good when you're just holding the pistol. When you're firing it, the recoil is going into that narrow "blade" against your hand. A fat grip distributes the recoil over a wider area. For a similar reason, a taller grip distribues forces over a greater area than a very short grip (ie. Glock 48 vs Glock 43).

 

[westernrover]

The merit of manual safeties, that is safety devices that the shooter must activate or deactivate with their hands to disable or enable the pistol to fire, have been debated for more than 100 years. Early detractors like William Fairbairn were having the manual safeties of Colt M1911 pistols pinned permanently in the fire position for issue to the Shanghai Municpal Police. They were to carry the guns with an empty chamber and effect the deactivation of this safe condition by racking the slide. One of the reasons the double-action revolver remained entrenched in US law enforcement for over a century and wasn't really replaced until the 1990's was the bureacratic and administrative aversion to manual safeties. As it was already mentioned, manual safeties can inadvertently be left on or off, disabling the pistol when it is most needed, and enabling it when it is least desired.

Proponents of the manual safety argue that the difficulties can be overcome and are mostly a matter of training and procedural memory (sometimes called "muscle memory"). The benefits of the manual safety would be greater protection against unintentional discharges (provided it is used correctly) and they could possibly prevent an unauthorized person from firing the pistol if they're not familiar with its operation.

Note that pistols like the 1911 and the S&W EZ use both a thumb lever safety and a grip safety. Many other pistols have only the lever safety.

Walther introduced the Double-Action/Single-Action (DA/SA) pistol to the world in 1938 in the form of the Walther P-38. It was produced for the Wehrmacht in Nazi Germany. After the war, the design of this action was adopted for the Beretta 92 that would become the standard US service pistol known as the M9, all the DA Sig pistols like the P226 etc., and the CZ75 and all its descendents and imitators. The innovation of the DA/SA pistol is that the hammer can be cocked with the pull of the trigger similar to a double-action revolver. Because the hammer is not kept cocked, there is no need to lock it with a manual safety. The pistol will be ready to fire as soon as the trigger is pulled, but the first pull will be a long and heavy double-action pull that somewhat secures it against unintentional discharge. Because the slide moving rearward during recoil cocks the hammer, every subsequent trigger pull will be single-action. The DA/SA pistol addresess the predicament where the shooter urgently needs the pistol to fire but has inadvertently left it disabled by the manual safety. The DA capability ensures the pistol will fire. However, the DA/SA design does not avoid the need for the shooter to render the pistol safe before re-holstering it after firing. They shooter must de-cock the gun using a lever to lower the hammer and return the gun from single-action mode to double-action mode. Failure to do so would result in the shooter holstering a cocked gun with no safety engaged.

Consider that there are two aspects of the trigger itself that can affect its ease of use and also its ease of misuse: the pull length and the pull weight. There are other trigger qualities like smoothness and reset distance that can affect its ease of use but I'm going to address the two aspects that are most pertinent to safety, the length and weight of the pull. The length is how far back the trigger has to be pulled. The weight is how much force the trigger must be pulled with to break the sear and cause the gun to fire. Single-action pistols tend to have the shortest and lightest trigger pulls and can be the easiest with which to master trigger control. The short, light pull also demands some additional method to secure them against unintentional discharge. Double-action triggers like those on a revolver Double-Action Only (DAO) pistols like the Kahr, or the first shot of a DA/SA pistol, tend to require long and heavy trigger pulls (8 to 14 lbs). These long, heavy pulls secure the guns against unintentional discharges, but they take the most to master trigger control. Striker-fired guns like Glock, some late model Sigs (P365, P320), and H&K do not have hammers, but strikers, so rather than cocking the hammer, the designs tend to feature a striker that is partially pre-cocked with the slide. The triggers tend to be longer than a single-action hammer-fired trigger (like a 1911), but are often just as light (4 lbs). Is the little bit of additional length of pull enough to secure a 4 lb. trigger against unintentional discharge without a manual safety? The Glocks are very popular, but I can tell you I choose not to carry one. I might feel more secure about carrying that type of action in a duty holster, but not concealed. The masses clearly disagree with me though.

Trigger discipline and muzzle control are certainly the most significant factors in safety. All modern handgun designs are intensely engineered to avoid the possibility of firing without the trigger being pulled. If they fire, it's almost certainly because the trigger was pulled. It can sometimes be pulled by an object or clothing being caught in the trigger guard or it can be pulled by a finger. Safety is overwhelmingly affected by keeping your finger off the trigger when you're not in the process of intentionally firing. This can be effected with careful and intentional training. Trigger discipline is a training issue. There are some unconscious factors that make this harder in some circumstances that we might not be aware of. Research has identified a few reasons why people put their finger on the trigger without even being aware of it and may even pull it without intending to do so. Research has shown that even highly-trained persons will subconsciously perform "trigger affirmation" under stress. There are other factors that can cause us to pull the trigger when we don't want to: startle response, contralateral contraction, and sympathetic grasp reflex. If you've ever realized that you were clenching your teeth when exherting yourself to lift a weight, you can understand that our bodies sometimes just do stuff.

 

[DR505]

I have a Glock 43X with the Shield Arms 15 round magazines (and steel mag catch). So my little 43x holds 16 rounds. It is a good shooter and i got it for less than $500 last year.

 

[gwpercle]

Too bad you're stuck on a 9mm luger .
One of the best home defense / night stand guns is a 357 Magnum revolver ... S&W K-frame .
Model 19 , adjustable sights , handles 38 special , target and +P and 357 magnum .
I like a 3" or 4" barrel ... no safety , no magazine , no feeding issues ...
Think About It !
Gary

 

[bearcreek]

Too bad you're stuck on a 9mm luger .
One of the best home defense / night stand guns is a 357 Magnum revolver ... S&W K-frame .
Model 19 , adjustable sights , handles 38 special , target and +P and 357 magnum .
I like a 3" or 4" barrel ... no safety , no magazine , no feeding issues ...
Think About It !
Gary

No feeding issues? At all? Ever?