"Ghost guns" story on NBC news

[danez71]

Then I did an awful job of writing because that's totally not my point, or even close. I had though I had been clearer.

My point is something you touched on, but I think are not giving enough weight. You said, "they all see the story on their hand held devices ... shared by various trusted ...," but that's not an entirely complete analysis. First of all, the link wouldn't be passed on if it couldn't be used to reinforce the preexisting bias of the reposters. You aren't going to post links you don't care about, or links that undercut your own deeply held beliefs. Second, people don't just pass on the links, they also add spin.

So if you take five kids, three of whom have connections to "conservative" voices, and three having connections to "liberal" voices, you will have two kids that, if they see that video at all, will encounter it prefaced by a clockwise spin ("MSM attacking your rights again!"), while two will only encounter it set up with a counterclockwise spin ("look how evil the NRA is!"). The fifth kid will listen to both sides only until one side annoys her, then she'll block it, leaving her only receiving information from one side. On average only just over half of the kids would be able to tell you if the linked video came from NBC. None of them would have watched more than was needed to verify that it confirmed their world view.

World views are deeply intertwined with social networks. That's why so many people see schools as a tool for change. Schools remove the ability to edit out undesired social links (you can't unfriend the teachers) and so force social connections that wouldn't otherwise exist. As social animals humans have a natural desire to be normative. If you take a kid from an X-biased social network and surround her with new connections that espouse Y views, 9 times out of 10 she will switch to the normative Y views.

Your idea that people will watch a video like that in order to be informed on the subject just doesn't line up with reality. If kids want to know facts they go to Wikipedia.

I get what you're saying and I think I'm giving it proper weight.....

But it's the bold part that I don't think you're giving ANY weight to.

You say that it doesn't match up with reality but the fact of the matter is I personally know, and am very close to, 9 kids that are the reality that counters your claim and that you say doesn't exist.

Obviously, it does exist.

My 1st hand personal life knowledge of this can't be unique..... and if you apply that to just a small % of your 75 million people claim, that translate to a couple million votes come next election.

 

[Drail]

This is where the whole slippery slope thing comes into play. If they truly believe that they can ban "ghost guns", then next up on the chopping block will be drill presses, drill bits, grinders, hacksaws, Dremel tools, files, stones, any kind of tool that can cut, shape, drill metals or polymers, etc., etc. right up to and including the idea that we can't allow people to be taught how to read a blueprint because they "might" use that skill to commit some unspeakable crime. That's not in my Constitution........

 

[Ed Ames]

But it's the bold part that I don't think you're giving ANY weight to.

That's correct. You and I perceive those kids and the stories shared with them differently. You see unbiased minds being influenced by NBC because NBC published a story. I see the social network (not NBC, but parents, grandparents, friends, teachers...everyone those kids have a social connection with) using bias-confirming sources to share their (not NBC's) views, knowing that kids strive to be normative and will therefore likely internalize the same bias.

There are "news" stories confirming every view you can imagine. Actually the only view that is hard to find represented is the objective "these are the facts, you figure out what it means" view. For every ghost guns story there is one about ... Animate Guns? I don't know what the opposite would be, but that. Which stories those kids are exposed to is determined by their social network, not by NBC et al.

 

[Decoy80]

Born in the 60's I started school at 5 as I would turn 6 before the first of the year. We had no kindergarten. 67/68 when I started was the first year Iuka Schools were fully integrated. I never remember a time when Black folks didn't have the same opportunity for education I had. My father, now 86 told me that the Internet was evil and an instrument used by the Devil. I didn't laugh out loud and just told him that I thought it was half good/half bad and not to be biased before reading all about something on it. NBC aired the Black Gun special. BTW I won't have to worry about them trying to take my guns. I probably will just need to be buried. They will get the same results when they come for my tools. My lathe, my anvil being the most prized. Education about guns and the arming of our teachers and even the janitor is the best deterrent to School shootings. I will admit being wrong if proven so. Have at it.

 

[MachIVshooter]

This thread has drifted quite a bit, but to get back to the OP and other questions:

-"80%" is not an official designation for incomplete receivers; it is one we came up with. ATF examines the partial receiver and determines that it either is or isn't a firearm. From a machining standpoint, "80%" receivers are more like 95-98% finished.

-Home building has always been a legal activity in the USA, federally. If you may legally possess a firearm, you may legally build one, as long as you conform to title I regs or have an approved form 1 to manufacture an NFA firearm. Only machine guns are completely prohibited for non-licensed manufacture.

-Contrary to popular belief, it is not illegal to sell home builds, and they needn't be serialized or otherwise marked. What is illegal is to manufacture with the intent to distribute.

Now, as noted, these alarmist "news specials" do give the impression that finishing out incomplete receivers is easier than it actually is. Yes, if you have proper tooling, they're a snap. But it ain't a matter of drilling a couple holes and then assembling. All "80%" kits involve either fairly substantial (and precise) material removal, bending of sheet metal "flats", or a good bit of welding (sometimes two or all three of those). I would wager there are several times as many never finished or totally butchered "80%" AR lowers as successfully completed ones. It's not as though street thugs are buying them up and building rifles out of them. No. Criminals are still overwhelmingly buying illegally or stealing handguns.

Unfortunately, the relative popularity of unfinished receivers did make enough of a splash a few years ago (namely the CNC "build parties") that ATF issued 2015-1, which does make it more difficult for many to complete them. You can no longer rent equipment and tooling (not even fully manual equipment) to finish them. Which means that for those who do not own milling machines, the prospect of doing an 80% lower is several times the price of buying a finished lower.

 

[coloradokevin]

Was just watching the nightly news on NBC and they ran a story about "ghost guns" claiming that there is a loophole allowing criminals all over the country to buy kits which are showing up in crimes everywhere. I am not up to the laws on this and dont know much about the AR platform. I thought that to be legal the lowers couldn't be complete. Were they outright liars, just disingenuous or can you legally buy ready to assemble kits that dont need any machining, just assembly ? They said these guns dont have to be registered either. Clue me in guys and gals.

You are correct, the lower can't be complete to a degree that the ATF considers it to be a firearm. The 80% lowers that are being legally sold are hardly just a "throw-it-together-and-it's-done" item. Basically, you're buying a partially finished receiver blank, that hasn't had the trigger group area milled out. It isn't considered a gun by the ATF because it isn't a gun. Actually turning the 80% lower into a gun requires milling and drilling, and the typical builder is going to use a jig to guide this process, along with a drill press, milling machine, and/or router.

And, I find the claim that these "ghost guns" are showing up in crimes everywhere to be spurious at best. Most guns used in crimes are stolen, not built by the criminal. I'm a career cop, and I've yet to see an 80% lower during the performance of my job, period... let alone one that was used in a crime.

 

[Spats McGee]

If you had some posts vanish, it's because I deleted them. This is a perfectly good thread. Let's not ruin it with senseless bickering.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

"Really the video could be a scene by scene reshoot of Rocky with cats instead of actors for all most of the people who have commented on it know."
An interesting social experiment would be to post some fake "outrage" message with a link to a video of a tabby cat playing Rocky Balboa and analyze the responses. Might even make a good sociology class dissertation.

You can't reduce complex issues to a bumper sticker (even if it's fun, it's shorthand to people who already agree with you).
You can't reduce complex debate to 140 characters either.
But mind-numbing propaganda can be reduced to "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength"; if George Orwell wrote "Twenty Seventy-One" today, dictator Big Brother and rebel Goldstein would communicate to the masses by Twitter.

http://thefederalist.com/2017/02/06/16-fake-news-stories-reporters-have-run-since-trump-won/
2 Feb 2017: A critical Tweet that Pres. Trump eased sanctions on Russia to allow US companies to work with FSB (KGB) got ~6,500 retweets; the follow up Tweet clarification it was an Obama admin planned technical fix got ~250 retweets. CNBC, CBS, NY Daily News ran with the anti-Trump version. Chicago Tribune commented: "in the hyperactive Age of Trump, something that initially appeared to be a major change in policy turned into a nothing-burger."

The problem there was not the Age of Trump: it is the Age of Public Discourse in the Twitterverse.

On the Ghost Guns story and millions of tweets: there are 300+ million people in the U.S., ~200 million voting age adults.