"Ghost guns" story on NBC news

[danez71]

Here is the NBC piece.

Chuck Schumer is now driving the push on a national level.

The only mileage this will get is to make the Republicans look bad and keep their base fired up.


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...als-buy-untraceable-ghost-guns-online-n719121

 

[Ed Ames]

The only mileage this will get is to make the Republicans look bad...

Only to the partisans. That's the nice thing about politics nowadays. The sides are so polarized that most of the people talking are just confirming their biases instead of thinking. A Republican could say it's raining and 17 newspapers will point out that it was a lie because it isn't raining in some corner of the Mojave desert. A Democrat could say that the sky is blue and there would be Republican op-eds about how the sky is actually red everywhere because sunsets sweep the planet daily. The only people who will think it matters are the ones who are only looking for another reason to hate people who don't agree with them.

 

[JeffG]

Ghost guns? Like Operation Fast 'n Furious?? I'm more worried about the untraceable terrorist refugees.

 

[danez71]

Only to the partisans. That's the nice thing about politics nowadays. The sides are so polarized that most of the people talking are just confirming their biases instead of thinking. A Republican could say it's raining and 17 newspapers will point out that it was a lie because it isn't raining in some corner of the Mojave desert. A Democrat could say that the sky is blue and there would be Republican op-eds about how the sky is actually red everywhere because sunsets sweep the planet daily. The only people who will think it matters are the ones who are only looking for another reason to hate people who don't agree with them.

I largely agree except.....

There is always some that can be swayed one way or the other; 'fence sitters' as some say. They are still out there with most every issue.

Also, people are born every day and at some point start watching news. There's millions of impressionable 14+ year olds that that have come into their own convictions yet that will be 18+ years at the next election. Headlines like this are also meant to groom future voters

 

[barnbwt]

The segment showed an ATF agent using a fixture and a drill to complete an 80% lower receiver. They made it look deceptively easy, and suggested it was something anyone could do.

Thanks, ATF, now everybody knows. If the ghost guns are so blasted dangerous, why are you publicizing how easy they are to complete? (Because if they actually were easy to complete, you'd have already banned them, like open-bolt semi autos or any number of previous 80% AR recievers)

So I guess this is another knock against Mr. "1:1000 80%s are completed" Yeager?

Also for old times' sake, the Gun Gimp from that ridiculous Vice documentary (he's the guy who makes all the Ghost Guns for California syndicates ). That's right; shades, balaclava, bandanna, indoors, with a voice modulator, lol

TCB

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I saw a ghost gun once. The gun it self was incorporeal but it was wearing a linen barrel shroud. I suspect it was hung from a string because the should thing kept going up.

Mike

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Thanks, ATF, now everybody knows. If the ghost guns are so blasted dangerous, why are you publicizing how easy they are to complete? (Because if they actually were easy to complete, you'd have already banned them, like open-bolt semi autos or any number of previous 80% AR recievers)

So I guess this is another knock against Mr. "1:1000 80%s are completed" Yeager?

Also for old times' sake, the Gun Gimp from that ridiculous Vice documentary (he's the guy who makes all the Ghost Guns for California syndicates ). That's right; shades, balaclava, bandanna, indoors, with a voice modulator, lol

TCB

They really did "bring out the gimp".

Mike

 

[BrocLuno]

Around Nor Cal - say near Covelo, you can get some semi-retired Hells Angles to finish all the 80% lowers you want. No markings, no fingerprints, no nothing. Hand them over with cash, come back a week later pick them up. All CNC machined.

I suspect there are locations in the South Land where you can do this too... Matter of fact I'm sure it can be done in any State in the Union...

Some more cash, and they will have full selective fire capability. Krooks don't care about AFT and DOJ laws. All they want is what they want. Why file off serial number when you can get a frame w/o one. No way to raise it with acid etch, nada.

This is very old news. Bad guys have had access to custom guns for a l-o-n-g time ...

 

[Ed Ames]

...Also, people are born every day and at some point start watching news. There's millions of impressionable 14+ year olds....

Except for the detail that a 14 year old growing up today is as likely to start watching NBC news as they are to have an 8-track music collection. People today get their news from Facebook, Reddit, ETC..

 

[Gun Master]

I think this new old news paranoia but anyway...

Crimes being done by thugs!!! how is that possible?
So when the cartels send over the drugs, minors for prostitution or illegal labor, firearms and whatever else from who knows where how do we tackle that?
How is the war on drugs and cartels going?

Everyone conveniently avoids talking about any of that!

Does this attached video indicate ATI and RIA are part of the "Ghost Gun" saga ?

 

[Slotback]

Just another agenda driven hit piece by NBC. Nothing new here.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Back when my county had local option prohibition of alcohol, I was aged 5 to 20 (1953 to 1968). I became aware of a lot of this "Ban X to Reform Mankind" rhetoric. Alcohol, guns, comic books ... I grew cynical. Bad guys in my neighborhood considered guns stolen from the military or police to be status items: let's nip that source in the bud! The only home made guns I saw were .22 blank guns converted to fire .22 Short or zip guns (car aerial, wood, nail, rubber band).

As far as crime guns recently, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Firearms Use by Offenders,
2004 Source of firearms possessed by state prison inmates at time of offense involving use or carry of a gun.
The "other" might include "ghost guns", but that would be a fraction of a fraction.
11.3% Retail Purchase or trade
7.3 - Retail store
2.6 - Pawnshop
0.6 - Flea market
0.8 - Gun show
37.4% Family or friend**
12.2 - Purchased or traded
14.1 - Rented or borrowed
11.1 - Other
40.0% Street/illegal source
7.5 - Theft or burglary
25.2 - Drug dealer/off street
7.4 - Fence/black market
11.2% Other source
** Family or friend of a felon is often a criminal themselves.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

If the gun banners have their way, we'll end up like the borderland between Pakistan and Afghanistan, local small shops turning out handmade guns, and no resemblance of gun control at all, except which do you prefer, faux Pachmeyer or fake Hogue?

 

[1stmarine]

Does this attached video indicate ATI and RIA are part of the "Ghost Gun" saga ?

I don't know. I just know this is just one small part of a larger documentary on how the cartels send illegal firearms along with the drugs and who knows what else.
And we know the cartels have infiltrated every major city in the US and run gangs like multinational organizations run sales territories.

 

[danez71]

Except for the detail that a 14 year old growing up today is as likely to start watching NBC news as they are to have an 8-track music collection. People today get their news from Facebook, Reddit, ETC..

You dont think that gets shared on facebook?


Besides, every news media outlet has a social media presence and and you can rest assured that the Elizabeth Warren's, Clintons, Pelosis, Bloombergs, Sanders etc of the world will make sure their media team blasts it out to their followers.

Their followers share it with their friends.... some of which are even younger than 14.

Even the phrase 'ghost gun' is catchy enough to intrigue kids to click on it on their own just out of curiosity.

 

[Ed Ames]

You dont think that gets shared on facebook?

No, not in the sense you mean. What gets shared on Facebook is the spin. When that video came out 1,000,000 people posted using it as evidence in support of their biases. NBC is anti-gun, the NRA is evil, whatever. All those posts were filtered into channels so that each of the 75,000,000 people who read those posts mostly/only saw those with spin that aligns with their views. People around here saw more "NBC is lying" spin, those whose social graph leans more in the HuffPo direction saw the "see how insane the NRA is" slant. Most of the people reading and commenting about that video will never watch it. Why bother? It only confirms what they already knew.

About 372 of the people who saw reference to the video actually watched it all the way through. Really the video could be a scene by scene reshoot of Rocky with cats instead of actors for all most of the people who have commented on it know.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

I don't know. I just know this is just one small part of a larger documentary on how the cartels send illegal firearms along with the drugs and who knows what else.
And we know the cartels have infiltrated every major city in the US and run gangs like multinational organizations run sales territories.

No doubt. I live in Louisville Ky, a LONG way from Mexico. In a neighboring county, we just had a police detective get a long sentence for working with a cartel and bringing in 1000s of pounds of marijuana to sell in Shepherdsville, Mt Washington and Louisville. The reach of these cartels is astonishing and scary.

 

[1stmarine]

No doubt. I live in Louisville Ky, a LONG way from Mexico. In a neighboring county, we just had a police detective get a long sentence for working with a cartel and bringing in 1000s of pounds of marijuana to sell in Shepherdsville, Mt Washington and Louisville. The reach of these cartels is astonishing and scary.

What is freaking unenviable to me is that this is the reason for a lot of the violence these days yet nobody says a peep before, during the campaign or after.
Perhaps because politicians have no clue on how to tackle this monumental problem. Perhaps too disturbing and complex so push it aside from the main stream sensationalist media agenda.

 

[danez71]

No, not in the sense you mean. What gets shared on Facebook is the spin. When that video came out 1,000,000 people posted using it as evidence in support of their biases. NBC is anti-gun, the NRA is evil, whatever. All those posts were filtered into channels so that each of the 75,000,000 people who read those posts mostly/only saw those with spin that aligns with their views. People around here saw more "NBC is lying" spin, those whose social graph leans more in the HuffPo direction saw the "see how insane the NRA is" slant. Most of the people reading and commenting about that video will never watch it. Why bother? It only confirms what they already knew.

About 372 of the people who saw reference to the video actually watched it all the way through. Really the video could be a scene by scene reshoot of Rocky with cats instead of actors for all most of the people who have commented on it know.

Yes... but no.

It seems a bit naive to think that all of those 75 million people all have their mind made up already and none are the 14 years olds that are still forming their opinions, or people that are wishy washy fence sitters.

I dont see how its possible at all assume or expect that to hold true.

 

[Decoy80]

I think this new old news paranoia but anyway...

Crimes being done by thugs!!! how is that possible?
So when the cartels send over the drugs, minors for prostitution or illegal labor, firearms and whatever else from who knows where how do we tackle that?
How is the war on drugs and cartels going?

Everyone conveniently avoids talking about any of that!

I emaied my Senator Roger Wicker about how simple we could take the problem in hand and control it using taxation to do so. Criminals sell drugs and use the money to buy guns. All we can do is control the problem we are losing not winning.

 

[Decoy80]

I don't know. I just know this is just one small part of a larger documentary on how the cartels send illegal firearms along with the drugs and who knows what else.
And we know the cartels have infiltrated every major city in the US and run gangs like multinational organizations run sales territories.

You are spot on If i try to do something and it doesnt work why should I do the same thing hoping for a different result. Prohibition didnt work, outlawing isnt always the best solution.

 

[Ed Ames]

Yes... but no.

It seems a bit naive to think that all of those 75 million people all have their mind made up already and none are the 14 years olds that are still forming their opinions, or people that are wishy washy fence sitters.

I dont see how its possible at all assume or expect that to hold true.

Ahh, but that's not the assumption.

When a person sees a (news) item on their Facebook/ETC. feed, they judge it based on the proximate source (the name/context of the person reposting it), not the ultimate source. There is a poll result making the rounds right now indicating that about half the time people don't even remember the ultimate source (they couldn't tell you if the video was mafe by NBC or The Onion), it really doesn't matter to them.

Stepping back a little bit...

People take their ideas from known and trusted people. At the same time their ideas affect who they trust, but the ideas are not the only factor. It is a complex system that is influenced, not 100% controlled, by self organization around ideas.

So if we use a 14 year old as our example, she has a network of people she trusts for reasons that range from sensible to outright bizarre. Maybe parents, likely teachers, certainly friends, commonly celebrities, apparently some politicians, ETC. The trust was formed for reasons that have nothing to do with ideas (a child doesn't trust her parents because they share similar views) but it influences views (a child who trusts her parents will likely share views with them). Of course the ideas she accepts will influence her choices, which affects the shape of her social network. If she accepts the idea that she shouldn't associate with people of a certain type, her social network won't have views of those people represented.

That's why environments like schools are so important to influencing ideas. They force proximity helping to create trust relationships that wouldn't otherwise exist (students trusting teachers, students from diverse backgrounds trusting each other, ETC.). Those can then be used to distribute ideas of all kinds.

The only way a company like NBC can be the proximate source (rather than creating supporting media to help others influence ideas) is if there was a mechanism to force proximity and therefore establish a trust relationship. For example if there were widely distributed devices that were limited to only presenting content from them, or maybe a handful of similar companies. An example would be the old television system from years ago. That would work for people who grew up in that environment but it isn't going to cover many 14 year olds today.

 

[danez71]

Ahh, but that's not the assumption.

When a person sees a (news) item on their Facebook/ETC. feed, they judge it based on the proximate source (the name/context of the person reposting it), not the ultimate source. There is a poll result making the rounds right now indicating that about half the time people don't even remember the ultimate source (they couldn't tell you if the video was mafe by NBC or The Onion), it really doesn't matter to them.

Stepping back a little bit...

People take their ideas from known and trusted people. At the same time their ideas affect who they trust, but the ideas are not the only factor. It is a complex system that is influenced, not 100% controlled, by self organization around ideas.

So if we use a 14 year old as our example, she has a network of people she trusts for reasons that range from sensible to outright bizarre. Maybe parents, likely teachers, certainly friends, commonly celebrities, apparently some politicians, ETC. The trust was formed for reasons that have nothing to do with ideas (a child doesn't trust her parents because they share similar views) but it influences views (a child who trusts her parents will likely share views with them). Of course the ideas she accepts will influence her choices, which affects the shape of her social network. If she accepts the idea that she shouldn't associate with people of a certain type, her social network won't have views of those people represented.

That's why environments like schools are so important to influencing ideas. They force proximity helping to create trust relationships that wouldn't otherwise exist (students trusting teachers, students from diverse backgrounds trusting each other, ETC.). Those can then be used to distribute ideas of all kinds.

The only way a company like NBC can be the proximate source (rather than creating supporting media to help others influence ideas) is if there was a mechanism to force proximity and therefore establish a trust relationship. For example if there were widely distributed devices that were limited to only presenting content from them, or maybe a handful of similar companies. An example would be the old television system from years ago. That would work for people who grew up in that environment but it isn't going to cover many 14 year olds today.

Well.... maybe we've been misunderstanding each other.

It seems, from what you wrote above, that youre talking about 'NBC' (generically speaking) being the proximate source influencing (or not) the 14 year old.

But thats not what I was talking about. Its the story that will have influence on the new generation (almost) regardless of which network is the 'breaking news' source.


Whether NBC, ABC, CNN, FOX, or even Facebook, is the proximate source doesnt really matter much to the 14 yr old from what Ive personally observed from my 9 nieces and nephews ranging from 10-18.

But all of them are also 'friends', on facebook for example, with the older cousins, aunts, uncles, parents etc (except me because I dont do facebook).

So while they all don't really watch TV news much, they do see their older 'friends/relatives' (their 'sphere of influence) sharing the story. Some are very conservative, some are pretty liberal, but not terribly so, to fairly neutral and we all live with about a 10 mile radius of each other.


All kids at some point start forming their own opinions on these sorts of things. Some follow their parents, some rebel against their parents etc. But they all see the story on their hand held devices being (this is an important piece) shared by various trusted liberal/conservative/neutral relatives so the news story must be important. (We're close and celebrate holidays and birthdays (and its a lot of birthdays), and summer bbq's together regularly and these topics do come up often)

They, the kids, click the story of 'ghost guns' to see, and judge, for themselves, And its story that demonizes the ability to make your own gun.

That will influence their young minds. Not because it came from NBC or Facebook but because kids do form their own opinions and do have a 'sphere of influence' that is diverse among their trusted relatives that they spend quality time with.


Out of your 75 million number, there has to be a couple million in similar situations; heck I just accounted for 9 young minds. I'm surely not that unique (and I didn't even count my out of state nephews). They will have been exposed to the difference of R's and D's in regards to guns, and they have seen/heard that story that demonizes guns in general and 80% scary home made ghost guns in particular.

That couple million votes can be the difference in the next election.

 

[Gun Master]

In our household, we usually feel Fox News gives the best and most accurate reporting.
We also watch NBC News for the other side, especially anti-gun.

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer" - Godfather Part II (and other prior authors)

 

[Ed Ames]

...seems, from what you wrote above, that youre talking about 'NBC' (generically speaking) being the proximate source...

Then I did an awful job of writing because that's totally not my point, or even close. I had though I had been clearer.

My point is something you touched on, but I think are not giving enough weight. You said, "they all see the story on their hand held devices ... shared by various trusted ...," but that's not an entirely complete analysis. First of all, the link wouldn't be passed on if it couldn't be used to reinforce the preexisting bias of the reposters. You aren't going to post links you don't care about, or links that undercut your own deeply held beliefs. Second, people don't just pass on the links, they also add spin.

So if you take five kids, three of whom have connections to "conservative" voices, and three having connections to "liberal" voices, you will have two kids that, if they see that video at all, will encounter it prefaced by a clockwise spin ("MSM attacking your rights again!"), while two will only encounter it set up with a counterclockwise spin ("look how evil the NRA is!"). The fifth kid will listen to both sides only until one side annoys her, then she'll block it, leaving her only receiving information from one side. On average only just over half of the kids would be able to tell you if the linked video came from NBC. None of them would have watched more than was needed to verify that it confirmed their world view.

World views are deeply intertwined with social networks. That's why so many people see schools as a tool for change. Schools remove the ability to edit out undesired social links (you can't unfriend the teachers) and so force social connections that wouldn't otherwise exist. As social animals humans have a natural desire to be normative. If you take a kid from an X-biased social network and surround her with new connections that espouse Y views, 9 times out of 10 she will switch to the normative Y views.

Your idea that people will watch a video like that in order to be informed on the subject just doesn't line up with reality. If kids want to know facts they go to Wikipedia.