OK, So I am glass bedding and pillar bedding a wooden rifle stock before refinishing it. I was originally planning on using JB Weld as the bedding material, but later decided to try acraglas instead. Its on order and should be here soon. I will still be using JB Weld to install the bedding pillars. I have been looking into releasing agents and I've found many people recommending either Original Pam Cooking Spray or Paste Wax. I have the Pam already, but was wondering if something like Dakine Snowboarding Afterburner Paste Wax would be better. Or are both of these items are pure wives tales and I should just stick to the stuff that Brownell's sells. thanks!
glass bedding: question on releasing agents
- Thread starter Nyet
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Howard Roark
Member
I use Kiwi shoe polish, natural, if that makes a difference. Just be sure to buff it after you put in on to get a super smooth finish.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Every AcraGlas kit comes with release agent.
That is all I have ever used and it works quite well.
Failing that, I would use a heavy coating of Johnson's Paste Floor Wax from the grocery store.
rc
That is all I have ever used and it works quite well.
Failing that, I would use a heavy coating of Johnson's Paste Floor Wax from the grocery store.
rc
I have personally used Johnson's Paste Wax on dozens of bedding jobs and it's always worked well. I have heard many good reports about Kiwi Neutral shoe polish which is inexpensive and available everywhere.
Given how easy it is to find these two known good products, I see little point in experimenting with anything else.
P.S. Be sure to get Acraglas GEL in the green box for bedding. Original Acraglas in the red box is for mending stocks and is too thin for easy bedding use.
Given how easy it is to find these two known good products, I see little point in experimenting with anything else.
P.S. Be sure to get Acraglas GEL in the green box for bedding. Original Acraglas in the red box is for mending stocks and is too thin for easy bedding use.
Kp321
Member
+1 on Johnson's paste wax. I have used many products but now use nothing else. The Acraglas release agent works very well but is a pain to apply and clean up. I'll stick with the wax.
Nom de Forum
Member
Go with the GEL. At one time I bed and re-bedded M14NM and M21 with it. Keep your finished bed clear of gun cleaning chemicals as it can deteriorate.
If you are doing just one rifle why not just use the release agent from Brownell's Acraglas Gel Kit. It provides a very thin coating and applies evenly, something other improvised release agents may not do if not carefully applied. I once saw an Army civilian employee destroy an M14 stock using a cheap substitute that did not release properly. This does not mean the other things mentioned above like Paste Wax cannot be successfully use.
gojuice101
Member
I've used Pam just because I had it on hand. It worked just fine. I've only done one so haven't had a chance to experiment with any of the other suggestions, though I see a lot of people using shoe polish and Johnson's paste wax so they obviously must work.
isaiahc
Member
I used shoe polish and JBWeld... depends on the expense of the gun. I did mine on a Savage Axis so if I screwed up it wasn't a super big deal but it worked well. If your gun is "precious" to you then I'd use what brownells sells and then be happy later that you didn't screw something up. IF your not worried then shoe polish or another wax that you can apply to the metal evenly and thoroughly would probably also work. All the releasing agent is doing is creating a barrier so the adhesive doesn't stick to your parts. As long as the releasing agent will reliably stick to your parts your ok... if it will mix with the adhesive type material or epoxy or melt or something like that then you better use something else. Some epoxy resins produce heat or can dissolve wax.
isaiahc
Member
JB Weld
Is there a downside to using JB Weld?
I'm afraid to answer this question on this forum, LOL.
I would bet unless someone saw you do it, or inspected the bedding they'd hardly know the difference. But I'm also gonna bet there's a number of people completely disagree with what I just said.
WHy are you bedding the stock again? To get more accuracy?
It's hard to believe JB Weld wouldn't work for whatever reasons you want it bedded, but I'm sure it's heavier, and I'm sure the good stuff has some physical properties that make it a better to use product but in the end it will essentially do the same thing?
I don't know about your M44?
A. Is it expensive? Is it very rare? Is it in good shape? If you answer yes to all the above then use something other than JB Weld...
B. If you answered NO to one or all of them then JB Weld will probably be satisfactory.
When I used JBWeld to bed my savage it shrank the groups up quite a bit but... the factory stock was flimsy and easy to bend and torque so that it would touch the barrel in different spots when gripping it. The whole stock would twist a bit... not good for accuracy.
I also placed sections of aluminum flats in the hollow part of the fore-end underneath the bedding to use as filler space and to stiffen up the fore-end without making it super heavy or having to use tons of JBWeld as it is much more expensive than aluminum flat stock.
It definitely worked though... bedding and butting JBWeld up to the barrel isn't always the best way to accurate something though. Some guns the results are actually negative. So it could be a shot in the dark. Or should a shot in the grey (cause JBWeld is grey when it's mixed, blah hahahah).
If you like projects and aren't babysitting this gun like it's Hitler's first born son or trying to split quarters at 600 yards then I'd say go for it.
Is there a downside to using JB Weld?
I'm afraid to answer this question on this forum, LOL.
I would bet unless someone saw you do it, or inspected the bedding they'd hardly know the difference. But I'm also gonna bet there's a number of people completely disagree with what I just said.
WHy are you bedding the stock again? To get more accuracy?
It's hard to believe JB Weld wouldn't work for whatever reasons you want it bedded, but I'm sure it's heavier, and I'm sure the good stuff has some physical properties that make it a better to use product but in the end it will essentially do the same thing?
I don't know about your M44?
A. Is it expensive? Is it very rare? Is it in good shape? If you answer yes to all the above then use something other than JB Weld...
B. If you answered NO to one or all of them then JB Weld will probably be satisfactory.
When I used JBWeld to bed my savage it shrank the groups up quite a bit but... the factory stock was flimsy and easy to bend and torque so that it would touch the barrel in different spots when gripping it. The whole stock would twist a bit... not good for accuracy.
I also placed sections of aluminum flats in the hollow part of the fore-end underneath the bedding to use as filler space and to stiffen up the fore-end without making it super heavy or having to use tons of JBWeld as it is much more expensive than aluminum flat stock.
It definitely worked though... bedding and butting JBWeld up to the barrel isn't always the best way to accurate something though. Some guns the results are actually negative. So it could be a shot in the dark. Or should a shot in the grey (cause JBWeld is grey when it's mixed, blah hahahah).
If you like projects and aren't babysitting this gun like it's Hitler's first born son or trying to split quarters at 600 yards then I'd say go for it.
isaiahc
Member
Oh BTW just looked up M44.. I had a mosin once... it was full length though. I put a synthetic stock from ATI on it. Then a scope tapped onto the receiver section (not crapped on the rear sight) and then trimmed and re-crowned the barrel. No matter what I did it NEVER got accurate. NOt sure I'd even waste my time bedding one (no offense) but it's up to you. If you can come close to 1" MOA @ 100 yards it might be worth it... if not I wouldn't bother trying to make it more accurate. When you buy a mosin you are actually getting like a 5 in 1. A rifle, a Russian potato masher, a club, a canoe paddle and a grave post.
Also, use plenty releasing agent all over everything cause I'm sure whatever you go with will end up getting all over everything anyways. Have lots of qtips and paper towels or rag ready to wipe off excess and I'd put something on the floor or table underneath cause you are sure to make a mess, at least I always do.
Take some photos or let us know do a follow up post. I'll look for my Savage 308 and post a pick, when I get a chance.
Also, use plenty releasing agent all over everything cause I'm sure whatever you go with will end up getting all over everything anyways. Have lots of qtips and paper towels or rag ready to wipe off excess and I'd put something on the floor or table underneath cause you are sure to make a mess, at least I always do.
Take some photos or let us know do a follow up post. I'll look for my Savage 308 and post a pick, when I get a chance.
Well, the long story is this. Was at the range shooting this gun and I had a freak accident with surplus ammo. over pressured round damaged the extractor, the spent cartridge failed to eject, I was reloading and failed to notice the un-ejected shell, Loaded the next round and the damaged ejector acted as if it was a firing pin. The next thing I know my stock is in two pieces, I'm bleeding through my glove, the four remaining rounds had been ejected through the bottom of the mag, and I slowly realize I'm staring at fragments of metal lodged in my eye-pro. The fragments that hit my hand missed all the nerves, larger vessels, and tendons, and all else I got was bits of un-burned gunpowder in my face, torso, and some even made it through the glove and into my skin.
I just had surgery to remove the bits and maintained full function of my hand. I'm almost done mending and all is well, thank the good Lord. it could have been so much worse.
Anyway, since the round had detonated outside of the breech, I had the gun checked out by four different gunsmiths. If I'd gotten a thumbs down from any one of them I'd have made it look pretty and put it on my mantle, but all four gave the green light for a safe rebuild. I had to cut the stock down before repairing it. that being the case I decided that I should modernize it and make it more accurate. I sanded out the inside of the stock a bit to free float it, I'll be doing a trigger job after the bedding job is complete, I'm going to give it a bent bolt to keep my hand further away from the breech, I've replaced the bolt face and the extractor and re-verified the head space, I cut off the bayonet, I'm adding a laser sight and bi-pod, and I'm installing a scout mount, a muzzle break, and recoil pad.
The idea is a scout rifle that I can just toss in the trunk and use to pulverize some boar.
as far as using JB weld, I'm more concerned with its longevity. I'm not looking for miracle improvement. It was already pretty accurate for what it was. If I remember it was just over 2" MOA as it stood @ 100 yrds. I'm hoping for 1" MOA when done.
I just had surgery to remove the bits and maintained full function of my hand. I'm almost done mending and all is well, thank the good Lord. it could have been so much worse.
Anyway, since the round had detonated outside of the breech, I had the gun checked out by four different gunsmiths. If I'd gotten a thumbs down from any one of them I'd have made it look pretty and put it on my mantle, but all four gave the green light for a safe rebuild. I had to cut the stock down before repairing it. that being the case I decided that I should modernize it and make it more accurate. I sanded out the inside of the stock a bit to free float it, I'll be doing a trigger job after the bedding job is complete, I'm going to give it a bent bolt to keep my hand further away from the breech, I've replaced the bolt face and the extractor and re-verified the head space, I cut off the bayonet, I'm adding a laser sight and bi-pod, and I'm installing a scout mount, a muzzle break, and recoil pad.
The idea is a scout rifle that I can just toss in the trunk and use to pulverize some boar.
as far as using JB weld, I'm more concerned with its longevity. I'm not looking for miracle improvement. It was already pretty accurate for what it was. If I remember it was just over 2" MOA as it stood @ 100 yrds. I'm hoping for 1" MOA when done.
isaiahc
Member
Holly Cow!
Wow, sounds like an affair. I like what your are saying.
Bear in mind the forums are full of people who know everything about what someone else should or should not be doing. That's great but hall monitors don't realize that trying and failing then trying and succeeding is a legitimate way to learn. I don't mean that condescending. That is... As long as it doesn't blow up in your face, literally and metaphorically.
What better gun than to experiment with some gunsmithing on just be safe and when it's something like a chamber or a bullet going off bring it to an expert but... bedding I really doubt you can make the gun blow up by putting epoxy in the stock. Plus why spend $$$ on an expensive gun.. better off spending less on a cheaper gun then someday when you get a shiney new one you can spend the big bucks on it.
Me... I value collect-ability but I also value sentiment. If that gun blew up in your face and you are going back for more I say own that thing and make it exactly how you want it. After all if you have some shrapnel from it it's a part of you... what better sentimental value then putting some blood, emotion and sweat into it.
If I had an unlimited budget I'd probably have a dozen random Frankenstein firearms sitting around waiting to get modified into something. It's a good way to learn something new, figure out what you like and what works and spend your time... fine tuning skills etc.. just be smart enough to know what you don't know and when something is dangerous or you might ruin it becomes time to ask an expert.
Wow, sounds like an affair. I like what your are saying.
Bear in mind the forums are full of people who know everything about what someone else should or should not be doing. That's great but hall monitors don't realize that trying and failing then trying and succeeding is a legitimate way to learn. I don't mean that condescending. That is... As long as it doesn't blow up in your face, literally and metaphorically.
What better gun than to experiment with some gunsmithing on just be safe and when it's something like a chamber or a bullet going off bring it to an expert but... bedding I really doubt you can make the gun blow up by putting epoxy in the stock. Plus why spend $$$ on an expensive gun.. better off spending less on a cheaper gun then someday when you get a shiney new one you can spend the big bucks on it.
Me... I value collect-ability but I also value sentiment. If that gun blew up in your face and you are going back for more I say own that thing and make it exactly how you want it. After all if you have some shrapnel from it it's a part of you... what better sentimental value then putting some blood, emotion and sweat into it.
If I had an unlimited budget I'd probably have a dozen random Frankenstein firearms sitting around waiting to get modified into something. It's a good way to learn something new, figure out what you like and what works and spend your time... fine tuning skills etc.. just be smart enough to know what you don't know and when something is dangerous or you might ruin it becomes time to ask an expert.
isaiahc
Member
Some folks would say that you already ruined it by trimming the stock. Or that it's no longer collectable. They are correct but is that why you purchased the firearm in the first place??? ONly you know.
Some will say JBWeld will ruin the gun... but like I said... if it's a cheap gun like a savage axis or your M44 and you are already ruining it by modifying it... then why not use JBWeld, why spend a bunch on something off of Brownells...
Some will say JBWeld will ruin the gun... but like I said... if it's a cheap gun like a savage axis or your M44 and you are already ruining it by modifying it... then why not use JBWeld, why spend a bunch on something off of Brownells...
Nom de Forum
Member
Wow are you lucky to have not been more seriously injured! Glad you are relatively ok.
I just have one last thing to say about what is used for bedding compounds. It is my understanding that one of the advantages of Acraglas Gel is less shrinkage after it has cured than other types of epoxy. I have heard of JB Weld being used but have no idea what the shrinkage characteristics are. Less shrinkage makes for a tighter action to stock fit and inherently better accuracy.
I just have one last thing to say about what is used for bedding compounds. It is my understanding that one of the advantages of Acraglas Gel is less shrinkage after it has cured than other types of epoxy. I have heard of JB Weld being used but have no idea what the shrinkage characteristics are. Less shrinkage makes for a tighter action to stock fit and inherently better accuracy.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I have never tried JB Weld for bedding.
But I have had mixed results using it for other things.
About half the time it fails to cure completely rock hard and stays semi-flexable for a long time.
That would not do for bedding!
rc
But I have had mixed results using it for other things.
About half the time it fails to cure completely rock hard and stays semi-flexable for a long time.
That would not do for bedding!
rc
Maj Dad
Member
Nyet, I get all my gunsmithing stuff (o.k., 99.9%) from Brownell's - if you're unhappy because the stars are mis-aligned, you can return it. If you want to change the order in mid-stream, no problem. If you want to shoot the breeze about bedding your rifle & which bedding will work better, give them a call, or simply chat online. They are the Ford/Chevy priced Rolls-Royce dealers of gunsmithing/shooting/all that and they are the first place I look for supplies. If you don't have their catalog, get one (or you can look online, just takes longer). I prefer the gel to the regular Accra-Glas but for some applications, the regular works as well or better: chat them up... I gel-bedded a cut-down VZ-24 & it will shoot repeatable 1" groups with open sights. Bedding is like a box of chocolates... 
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-accessories/mold-releases/acraglas-release-agent-prod41622.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-accessories/mold-releases/acra-release--prod1045.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-accessories/mold-releases/acraglas-release-agent-prod41622.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-accessories/mold-releases/acra-release--prod1045.aspx
notaglockfanboy
Member
I have used JB weld on a few rifles with 100% satisfaction. No shrinkage or cracking on the thin parts, so I can be used with great results. I also used it to stiffen up the stock on my wifes Ruger American .243 and it did a great job. The stock is flimsy on those "budget" rifles and the extra support in the forend is the cure for barrel to stock contact. There are better products made for the purpose, but I am the kind of guy that when I am ready to do something I don't want to wait 4 or 5 days for something when I can use something I have on hand. Hope this helps.
Johnny_B_Goode
member
It's not like the current crop of guns are going to be collectable anyway. Unless you buy a new gun, wipe it down with Rig and put it back in the box you will be lucky if the gun appreciates to keep up with inflation.
Unless you have a pre 64 Winchester model 70 that is still in the box very few guns have kept up with inflation. In the early 60's you could buy a damn nice car for the cost of a model 70. Even with the value of a pre 64 model 70 still in the box all you can get is a car with a 100,000 miles on it that is kind of clean.
Unless you have a pre 64 Winchester model 70 that is still in the box very few guns have kept up with inflation. In the early 60's you could buy a damn nice car for the cost of a model 70. Even with the value of a pre 64 model 70 still in the box all you can get is a car with a 100,000 miles on it that is kind of clean.
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According to the 1963 Gun Digest MSRP on a model 70 was $139. Street price was probably closer to $100. How many damn nice cars could you buy then for less than $139?
According to this site average price of a new car was $3,233.00.
morcey2
Member
I've used the release agent from the Acraglas kit, cooking spray, and Johnson's Paste Wax with equal success. The blue acraglas agent was the easiest to remove, but I think the paste wax was the thinnest, resulting in the best fit.
Matt
Matt
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