Glass projectiles

[swopjan]

Hello everybody,

Yesterday I heard about a guy that used glass marbles in a smoothbore musket with some success. I've asked around a bit and a few people have shown interest, but nobody seems to have tried this. I don't see why it wouldn't work fairly well in a musket, rifle or muzzleloading pistol with a reduced powder charge as an alternative to a lead PRB. Has anybody tried this, and if so, kept any load or accuracy data? What problems have you encountered, if any?

It seems like a glass ball could be as accurate as lead. Of course, it would be inadequate for deer but for plinking or squirrels/rabbits, I don't see why not. Thoughts?

 

[AlexanderA]

I would think it would be too light to be ballistically stable.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I wouldn't want broken glass in my rabbit stew even if it worked.

 

[Mp7]

They´ll be less accurate ... as they are lighter ... but that doesnt mean you cant shoot stuff with them.

After all http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunderbuss Blunderbusses were originally loaded with
whatever was available ... brass, lead, nails, rocks ...wire ...scrap.

Loading a smoothbore with "buck & ball" made from what´s layin around
will certainly be a load that can wound and kill things.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You are also assuming that the glass will not fracture when hit by the ignition of the main charge, and fragment upon exiting the muzzle.

LD

 

[kBob]

I use marbles as projectiles.....in my slingshot. Company that makes the ones we have in the house at the moment (surgical tubing type) sell white glass marbles, we by bags of 50 cats eyes at the dime store for about half the price. BTW from 15 feet one of those cheesy little Marksman brand slingshots can launch a marble through an aluminum drink can.

I would not shoot one from a BP gun though except in an emergency.

-kBob

 

[Oldnamvet]

I know the guy that does that. Has been doing it regularly for several years. He has no problem holding good groups at 25 yds. It is not a 100 yd projectile. They also don't break up and fragment in the gun. He also uses the hard rubber balls that they use for rubber bullets in shotguns, both 40 and 50 cal sizes as prb in his rifles. They also work well at 25 yds (assuming there is no crosswind). And they are reuseable. Just really cheap ammo for practice. Recently he also found a source for brass balls which are heavy enough for deer. His focus is what he can use for targets or hunting if somehow lead is restricted or banned as they are working at in California.

 

[Busyhands94]

I have taken game with a slingshot using the white glass marbles, those are actually pretty effective projectiles. When I was younger I shot whatever I could get my hand on out of a slingshot, I mainly used round stones found down by the river. My friends and I would take my 4 1/2" angle grinder and cut open the bearings from cars and we'd shoot those too.

I also came across some .50 looking roundballs and shot those, VERY effective. More so than the glass marbles, those would zip right through whatever you shot. You can also cut pieces of 1/2" steel rod about an inch long and shoot those. I have even broke cinder blocks with them using a Marksman slingshot and a set of high velocity bands. Those are extremely effective projectiles, you do have to hold a bit high at longer ranges though.
Oh yes, and spent bullets. Spent .45 ACP bullets are great for slingshot hunting, even if they are going a couple hundred FPS to a squirrel they are lethal. It would be like getting hit with an anvil going 80 MPH, very deadly.

So as far as projectiles go I don't think glass is as effective but it would do for hunting small game in a pinch. Cylinders of the right diameter could be shot out of sabots, I wouldn't want to be shot with one of those, very lethal stuff right there. Lead is extremely effective as a projectile, of all the materials you could make bullets out of lead is the best for under 1000 FPS unless it's jacketed.
Spent bullets from a .45 could be used with a thick patch I would imagine as long as they are in good shape, maybe not as accurate as a PRB, but still a decent makeshift projectile nonetheless.

Just my thoughts on makeshift projectiles, test at your own risk starting with light loads.

Levi

 

[clang]

Shooting glass just does not sound like a good idea to me. Why not try something safer first, like jawbreakers.

 

[Busyhands94]

Very good idea, you could get some jawbreakers and suck on them until they are the right size. Plus they'd be like a Glasser safety slug and disintegrate when they hit something hard. I'd imagine they'd make a pretty decent projectile from a muzzleloading rifle or a shotgun. Great, now I'm tempted to buy a sack of jawbreakers and try some light loads of BP in my 16 guage or my .50, I'm talking around 12-15 grains with my light reloaded primers. I load them with one paper cap and a pinch of BP. I know, "Levi, you have too much time on your hands"

I have also heard something about a drunkard loading his rifle with three cigarette butts and actually shooting and killing his buddy with them. The Mythbusters tested it but I wouldn't say they were too scientific about it. They didn't test ones that were smoked down to different lengths, or unfiltered, or even different brands that have more tar in them.

Now here's another idea, what about wax slugs? You could try heating up some chilled lead birdshot and wax then pouring it into a form that is as close as you can get to the caliber of the weapon you are making them for. I could come up with substitutes for projectiles all day!

Levi

 

[roundball]

FYI...I've done quite a bit of testing with 'lead alternative' balls and what we know as solid glass marbles are outstanding.
Since they don't compress any if they're too snug in a bore, you have to ensure you use the right size with possibly a thicker patch than normal to accommodate any variations. And I've intentionally thrown them down on a concrete floor as hard as I can and they don't break, just bounce up to the ceiling...they may have a trace of acrylic mixed in to keep them from breaking, dunno.

Turns out the size of the common 9/16" x 65 grain glass marble has enough manufacturing variations that in just a few minutes you can sort them into a piles...for the .58 and the .62cals...where they give ragged hole accuracy...just preset / lock your calipers at the required spot, take a handful and drop them on the open jaws one at a time...they'll either drop through or roll off, etc.

Due to their lighter weight, they are not long range projectiles as they slow down and get the knuckleball effect, otherwise, they're an excellent low cost (penny apiece) close range alternative practice ball...and should be excellent for small game at small game distances as well. Bottom line, if lead becomes unavailable / banned...we can at least keep right on enjoying weekend shooting, then just pay the high price for enough non-toxics to sight-in and hunt big game with.

Since these initial tests back in 2008 / 2009, I've since also tested them in .58 & .62cal Early Virginias out of Rice barrels, same results.
Here's an example using 9/16" glass marbles in a rifled .62cal GM barrel I had a few years ago (same result in the .58cal)

 

[mykeal]

Due to their lighter weight, they are not long range projectiles as they slow down and get the knuckleball effect, otherwise, they're an excellent low cost (penny apiece) close range alternative practice ball...and should be excellent for small game at small game distances as well.

Like what - 10 yards, 15 yards, 25 yards....? There's quite a variation in what people call 'short range'. Just trying to pin it down a little.

Ed: Oops. Just noticed the range on the target.

 

[swopjan]

Excellent information and conjecture here, exactly what I wanted. And I don't need an excuse to suck on jawbreakers

As far as hunting goes, I wouldn't hunt squirrels with anything I can't hit them in the head with, so bullet composition doesn't matter much to me, be it glass, wood, lead, whatever. I'll also be in California next year, where I believe lead is banned outright, so marbles provide a cheap plinking alternative. Roundball, have you shot steel plates with glass marbles? If so, how far away would you estimate is a minimum safe distance? Also what powder charge did you start with before you got to 80 grains?

 

[roundball]

I can't recall, but I'm pretty sure I would have started around 50-60grns...and then learned to get the accuracy with this combo I needed to bump up the powder charge to push them right along so they wouldn't slow down prematurely.

No, never shot them at steel so I can't comment on that...my guess is they'd probably shatter at high velocity but I don't know.

PS:
Unless something new has been announced...I don't think all of California has a lead ban does it?.....just a "lead ban area" where there's a concentration of Condors because one / some are allegded to have died from ingesting a lead projectile from a carcass.
(Personally I don't believe that for a minute, but that's just me)

 

[zimmerstutzen]

What bore size is required to shoot one of Wonka's everlasting gobstoppers?

Everybody is in a tizzy about the possible lead ban for hunting. What about pewter. melts at a low temp, non-toxic, last I knew it was about $15 a pound for new commercial stuff. Or even woods metal?

 

[mr16ga]

Now here's another idea, what about wax slugs? !

Levi

I have used wax bullets in a Colt .45 and you can buy them if you are too lazy to make them. Just drill out the flash hole as large as you dare too. They hit hard and will dent a garbage can. I was going to use them on stray dogs that were getting my chickens and rabbits until I saw the dent one made in the garbage can. You can buy cases that have been drilled out for using shotgun primers with wax bullets. Primer only use no powder.

To make wax bullets melt down wax, with out setting the house on fire, and pour it in a pan and let cool then press the case down into the wax. Not unlike making a grease cookie (<= BP content.)

Joe

 

[swopjan]

Here's a website I was given when I inquired about wax bullets http://www.gunfighter.com/waxbullets/

But I like that "grease cookie" idea!

I'm not familiar with pewter, I've heard of it but I always thought it was some sort of rock.

 

[wulf415]

pewter/marble ammo

@ Zimmerstutzen:

True pewter is 50/50 lead and tin, if lead gets banned, it will disappear from the market as a lead ban will eliminate ALL lead products from distribution. if the current administration has it's way all lead ammunition and lead ingots will either have to be turned in to collection centers or otherwise disposed of, with ever more strict controls on who may have non-lead ammo, and how much.

sources for pewter: 50/50 plumbers solder in wire or bar form, if you can still find it...

BTW, I know a guy who shoots marbles from a 12 gauge for giggles.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Pewter is a malleable metal alloy, traditionally 85–99% tin, with the remainder consisting of copper, antimony, bismuth and (sometimes, and less commonly today) lead. Copper and antimony act as hardeners while lead is common in the lower grades of pewter, which have a bluish tint. It has a low melting point, around 170–230 °C (338–446 °F), depending on the exact mixture of metals.[1] The word pewter is probably a variation of the word spelter, a term for zinc alloys (originally a colloquial name for zinc).[2]

There is a great deal of pewter out there with no lead. In fact over the last hundred years only low class cheats put lead in pewter. All those pewter drinking mugs and and cups sold in the past 40 or so years are supposed to be lead free and non-toxic under federal law.

I have melted quite a bit of it down to make nose caps, buttons, etc.

I have some really old pewter from the 18th century and about 300 pounds of the 20th century stuff. The scrap and dented stuff gets melted down. I made a spoon mold years ago from molding plaster and the mold held up for about 30 spoons.

 

[Busyhands94]

Where can one buy pewter? I kinda want to make some buttons, I know buttons are cheap and all but I'd rather be able to say "I made this."

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Rotometals and a few other outfits sell various grades of pewter. I checked late this afternoon and it was $17.00 a pound. I turned a button mold out of mild steel several years ago. It worked rather well except that I didn't make provision for mold handles. It was just a simple 3/4 inch round button with a slightly raised edge. about a 1/16 inch thick. The holes had to be drilled. I didn't leave enough meat to the mold to add handles, figured some day I would make anther. Still haven't.

 

[BHP FAN]

well, I guess since pewter contains some silver, it would be effective against werewolves and vampires. in the real world I prefer lead. if I want to boost the FPS, as in smokeless rifle loads, then I'll use gas checks.

 

[wulf415]

@ Zimmerstutzen: I stand more or less corrected, the pewter I have scavenged in past decades was mostly soft, low grade decorative items from the late 1800s and was very dull with spots of whitish corrosion that produced a scum of violet-blue to gray material on top of the melt. judging by their weight, the articles apparently contained some lead. the last batch of salvaged pewter I melted stayed silver in color and melted readily. looks like I can remelt my ingots and double the amount of what I lightheartedly hope is #2 alloy, as I figured 50/50 while mixing my last batch of lead.

For those wanting pewter on the cheap, I'd suggest yard sales and second hand shops, you might turn up an item of pewterware or two.

Thanks for the tip regarding the modern formulation, I'll have to keep an eye peeled for pewterware in the future.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

At a yard sale this am I paid $2 for a set of 6 pewter Jefferson Cups. Made by Hanle Company. They weigh about 5 oz each. They are nice and silver Too nice to melt down. They will go into the Rendevous chest.

 

[CWL]

Marbles, the ones made for children, have tempered glass which resists chipping, cracking and shattering. Think of the mayhem that they are meant to survive at the hands of young boys...

I think they would hold up a lot better than most people realize when used as projectiles.