Glock 20 for grizzlies?

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I've been a fan of the 10mm for over 20 years and carry one all the time in the southern Rockies...200 gr. Hardcast doing 1150fsp from a 4.25" Commander or a 200 gr. XTP at the same velocity. This should be adequate to slow down medium sized black bears and Mt. Lions.

But if I'm in Moose or Grizz country I swap it out for a 4" 629 with a 280 gr. Hardcast doing 1150 fps and the wife carries the 10mm. We usually have bear spray around and depending upon the situation a 12 gauge with Brenneke's is nearby.

As much as I love my 10mm's it's really not much more gun than a .357 Mag. and I hand load for all of them except the shotgun.

15 fast shots verses 6 from a more powerful round, it's a tough call. But I think your only going to get 1 or 2 initially to stop or slow down the threat of a large and dangerous animal.

Yep, I read the Alaska Handgun Forum occasionally and the 10mm is getting more popular up there, but, I don't recall any instances of the 10mm being used as actual brown bear defense, whereas the .44 Mag., has.
 
It's going to take brain hits to stop a charge, guys. So massive amounts of penetration are not required. If you can practice more and get the brain hits more easily with a 9mm, then stick to what you have. Regardless, if you aint got a big canister of spray, or get in several good tries with a 3006 or 308 autoloading rifle, you are probably going to end up getting mauled. Perhaps, tho, you can "feed' him one arm, while you shove the muzzle of your pistol up against his eye, earhole, temple, under his chin, etc.

The 45-70 is way behind such autoloading rifles when it comes to getting fast hits on the 6" disk that constitutes the brain target. Also, 45-70 ammo and components cost more. Why settle for such a short ranged gun? The 06 auto can do anything that the 45-70 can, plus reach out 3x as far for regular hunting. The OP said nothing about brown bears. In the lower 48 states, 600 lbs is a huge bear.
 
Take a wander over to some of the Alaska hunting forums and see what those guys suggest for a carry weapon in bear country. There are plenty of posts by guys who hunt up there and have had numerous bear encounters. Quite a few where they have actually had to kill the bear. The first recommendation is a medium bore rifle (375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 45/70, etc...), down from there is a 12ga with hard cast slugs (Brennekie or similar). Below that are the handguns, and those start with 460, 454 with the 44mag coming in on the very low end.

If you want to carry your 10mm go right aheard but realize a 10mm leaves you very little, if any, margin at stopping a charge. It may be a lethal hit but if it takes 2 min for the bear to die, that will be 2 minutes for you to have a nice close encounter with wounded and very pissed off bear.

Bear protection is about stopping the charge, right then. Not about lethality. You either need massive hydraulic shock (mid bore rifles) or deep penetration and hopes of a CNS hit. Your goal is to incapacitate the bear immediately. I am sorry but as good of a round as the 10mm is, it simply is not in the realm of a hot loaded 44 mag (the very bottom end of what is suitable).

You are likely to only get one shot off in a bear encounter that requires you to draw and fire, maybe 2 if you are lucky, so your extra 13 rounds of 10mm in the mag are going to be doing you no good whatsoever. Even on a good hit, the smaller caliber and lighter weight of the 10mm will not be nearly as effective as the larger and heavier (almost 40% heavier) 44mag, and like I said, the 44mag is considered barely adequate for a one shot stop on a charging bear. Add to the fact that the nose profile of something that will feed through your auto is far from the optimal nose profile for delivering the most straight line tissue damage.
 
98Redline Offers A Well Reasoned Line of Thought On 10mm...

(I have decided to respond to this thread after 335 days because I appreciate reading and recognizing through acknowledging the wisdom of well written words of advice. )

I believe that the OP asked our well informed members here at THR for some advice about the effectiveness of using a Glock 20 in defense of a "grizzly" bear C-H-A-R-G-E and thus far 98Redline offers a well reasoned line of thought for the OP to consider. The grizzly bear is known by hunters as well as by reputation as a fierce and tenacious predator, such is the nature of that beast. Man on the other hand is characterized by being endowed with a mind that reasons .
A 10mm round against a 250lb-450lb Black bear is reasonable weapon of choice
A 10mm round against a 600lb-1200 plus lb Grizzly bear in charge mode ,
Not So Much , as a weapon of choice IMHO.
Several previous posts have cited in detail the difficulties of hitting any vital areas of a charging 4 legged animal, even a domesticated German Shepherd , but even when and if hit by 1 or more (not likely all 16 rounds of 10mm) an enraged grizzly would have enough time , teeth, claws and momentum to punch your time card for the last time before expiring.
The antagonistic effects of the aromatic aerosol, BEAR SPRAy which the reasoning mind of man has developed would probably be more effective in deterring a charge from a grizzly than a 10mm round would be in stopping it before being mauled or worse.:)
 
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An old thread, but thought I'd throw this into the equation.

Read this year of a grizzly attack in Montana. (Sorry, can't find the link now)

Story went like this....Solo hiker saw a pair of hikers being stalked by a grizzly. He shouts to warn them. Shouting brings the bear off the others and toward the shouter. :what: Apparently, the solo hiker had time to hose the bear with spray. The spray did not stop the bear and the bear continued toward him. He then had time to aim and fire a single shot with his .357magnum. The bear dropped in it's tracks. The three hikers go find a ranger to report the attack. Ranger and hikers come back to the scene and the bear is gone. They find blood and hair and determine that the bear was only knocked out by the gunshot.

I know that somebody "up there" must have been watching out for these folks for things to go as well as it did, but find it interesting that the heavily touted bear spray was less effective than a handgun round that is considered substandard for grizzly bear. A .357 was better than a sharp stick in this instance. Better than a jug of spray, too.
 
If I were bowhunting in grizzly country I'd have 2 considerations, 1st would be that chance encounter on the trail while out hunting and 2nd would be the deliberate encounter after I had an animal down and was prepping or packing it out or the bear was somehow attracted to my camp.
In the first case a sidearm like the G20 or larger is as viable as anything practical. In the second case a powerful carbine or shotgun would be my choice. Good spray would probably be included in both situations. Not all states would allow this and I find that to be very irresponsible on the part of the lawmakers.
 
wild cat mccane said:
Glad you say bear spray. It's more effective and has great spread.

A bear runs 2x's faster than a fast person.

Here is a bear.... up a tree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jRTrRxamxQ

You aren't getting off 16 rounds if it's truly self defense.
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Black bear. Usually pretty harmless. Curious as a dog, and 10 times smarter. I doubt the one in the vid was wanting to eat that hunter. I've seen that look before. They don't get that big by eating people.

Obviously just wanted to look around:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re6wFwCDtxo

I have no experience with Grizz, but I love seeing black bears in the wild. I was amazed by the hippie that let himself be eaten by one, and had a picture of the bear. Just about fell out of my chair when it turned out to be just a medium sized black bear. Some people have no luck.

When I sleep in my trucks bed, I'll get waken up by a black bear standing up and sniffing in the bed. Happened 3 times already. That's what you get for eating Cheetos before falling asleep. They can open tent zippers without damaging the tent as well.

Bear spray is going to be more effective than a Glock 20. That burns the heck out of their most sensitive instrument. Skunks don't use claws or bullets for a reason.

The sting of a bullet somewhere non critical ain't even going to phase a bear. And they may or may not be upset by the boom of a pistol. It's so quick and loud that it kinda gets missed by thier brains if they're in angry momma bear mode. So a glock 20 won't work in the least, against a big pissed off momma bear. But a calm, scavenging for food bear, should be scared off easy with the spray or the Glock.

Another thing. Bear spray triggers their fight or flight response and they're going to flee every time. A bullet hit might just make them want to fight harder. It might even move you from "easy dinner" to "competitor for territory". And an angry bear is really hard to stop, a hungry bear, not so much.

So don't anger bears if you want to live long. And don't be a d#@$ and shoot up a harmless park bear looking for picnic baskets.
 
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I'm sure w/e you are carrying to hunt the elk will be more useful than any sidearm. But a Glock 20 with the right ammo would certainly make me feel a little warmer and fuzzier. AFAIK, the Glock 20 is a fairly commonplace choice sidearm for Alaskan hunting guides. It's light, it's reliable, it is easy to operate, and it has enough penetration to bother a brown bear, with the correct ammo. Sure, an 8" 44 mag would be better, if you want to carry one along with your hunting gear... which it sounds like you are already carrying bear spray and a hunting rifle that is more than likely a wee bit better for bear than any 44 magnum.

Read again the comment about not getting a dozen shots off. Those big lumbering guys lumber along at a pace you won't believe. Your best defense may well be distance, not caliber.
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Maybe, maybe not. I HAVE read about a police officer getting off all six out of his 357 wheelgun with hollowpoint service ammo. They found his gun empty, and they later tracked down and killed the bear, which had six bullet holes. Also, you are not going to statistically be eaten/attacked by only the largest brown bears on record. You might find yourself squared off with a "small" one.

You also might not be alone at the time of an attack. I wouldn't want to run out of bullets while a bear is eating my friend.
 
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Nom de Forum said:
Disclaimer:

I have never hunted bear or been attacked by a bear, and probably for most of the people posting to this thread the same is true. Sooooo, keep that in mind and think about asking for opinions in forums more likely to have members who have hunted or been attacked by bears as they may give you better insights on what you can expect from the bear and yourself.

My Book and Buddy knowledge:

Can we assume it is legal in Montana for you to carry a Firearm on an Archery Hunt?

Can we assume you have no interest in carrying a rifle or shotgun?

Can we assume you realize that there are no "smaller" Grizzlies only larger Grizzlies?

If the answer is yes to the above questions:

Start with the pepper spray, this is what the State of Alaska recommends because your odds of surviving are greater than starting with a pistol.
IF, the spray is ineffective in stopping a charging bear you will most likely be in contact distance so fast you will not get many if any shots off. However, if you have icewater for blood and exceptional pistol shooting skills you may be able to fire before the pain begins. If this is you then you are not asking too much from the 10mm with heavy HC loads because they will penetrate the skull and you are familiar with the Glock. If this is not you then a .40+ caliber revolver loaded with heavy HC that will not malfunction when pressed between you and the bear is a much better choice. Expect to die and be happy when you are only maimed. Good Luck.
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Without question bear spray is the right answer. I understand your desire to carry a gun for bears, but I have zero doubt that 99.5% of mankind is better off, or safer, with bear spray.

When I first moved to Alaska I was asking the same questions you were. By the time I left I carried bear spray just like the vast majority of the locals that were now my friends. They included war vets, ex cops, marksman, you name it. They understood the real risk and were not worried about looking like a badass.
 
Tinker said:
An old thread, but thought I'd throw this into the equation.

Read this year of a grizzly attack in Montana. (Sorry, can't find the link now)

Story went like this....Solo hiker saw a pair of hikers being stalked by a grizzly. He shouts to warn them. Shouting brings the bear off the others and toward the shouter. :what: Apparently, the solo hiker had time to hose the bear with spray. The spray did not stop the bear and the bear continued toward him. He then had time to aim and fire a single shot with his .357magnum. The bear dropped in it's tracks. The three hikers go find a ranger to report the attack. Ranger and hikers come back to the scene and the bear is gone. They find blood and hair and determine that the bear was only knocked out by the gunshot.

I know that somebody "up there" must have been watching out for these folks for things to go as well as it did, but find it interesting that the heavily touted bear spray was less effective than a handgun round that is considered substandard for grizzly bear. A .357 was better than a sharp stick in this instance. Better than a jug of spray, too.
Click to expand...
I have a relative that survived a car crash because she was NOT wearing a seat belt. She was thrown from the car before it crossed into oncoming traffic and was destroyed by a cement truck. She was the only survivor in the car.

That doesn't mean it is safer to not wear a seat belt.

Bear Spray is the correct answer about 99.5% of the time. If you are the other 0.5% then congratulations. I would love to watch you shoot.
 
I think there are better choices than 10mm, but if you don't like revolvers, and you do like GLOCKs, then go with your gut.

The chances that you'll need it are small.
 
Agsalaska said:
Without question bear spray is the right answer. I understand your desire to carry a gun for bears, but I have zero doubt that 99.5% of mankind is better off, or safer, with bear spray.
Click to expand...

Yup, the spray is essential and the best first option but the consequences can be so severe that 0.5% of the time that having a firearm prudent.
 
torchroadster,

That was it. Thanks. I find it silly that the guy even had to go to court. Seems that could have been avoided with the say-so of the park rangers.


Agsalaska,

I would love to watch you shoot.
Click to expand...

Note that my last post included:

I know that somebody "up there" must have been watching out for these folks for things to go as well as it did,....
Click to expand...

Actually got to see a griz last year in Yellowstone. It was a truly impressive thing to see in 3D. Intimidating, to say the least. 100 yards off the side of the east entrance of the great lake as we drove in. Thing just flipped logs and rocks that weighed more than me with no visible effort. It's hair looked more akin to needles than hair. I stood there, by the running car, taking a video. Was thinking about the large can of UDAP and the .357 mag in the car the whole time. That reminded me of that quote from the movie Jaws when the guy said "We're gonna need a bigger boat." when considering those armaments in an emergency. If it were legal to tote, I think a RPG would be more fitting for self defense against one of these in an attack.
 
I accidentally stumbled upon a bear in Yellow Stone a few years ago. We were about 50 feet from each other.

He didn't care that I was there. I did. I took a few pics and then slowly backed away.

This was before carry in parks was legal so I was unarmed. However, it reaffirmed my choice in my bear gun, because if I'd been in the wild and not faced with a park bear, I'd want something heavy, fast, and capable of shooting right through a charging bear from nose to tail.

325 gr hard casts at 1900 ft/sec or so aught to do it.
 
Agsalaska,

They understood the real risk and were not worried about looking like a badass.
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I personally do not carry a firearm to look like a tough guy. It is for emergency defense against humans or critters that intend to do me or mine bodily harm. One reason I elect not to open carry even though it is legal and I have a CCW permit. If I lived in Alaskan bear country and shouldered a pump 12 gage pump I could care less how others would perceive the appearance. It would not be a decoration.
 
10mm is actually less powerful than a .357 magnum, especially in full power loads.
I'd take the higher sectional density of a 158 or 180 grain .357 over any 10mm load for hunting. 10mm was developed as a manstopper. .357 was developed as a hunting round.

That said, I wouldn't use either in the grizzly woods, except as a suicide round to prevent being mauled.

.44 Mag with heavy-bullet Ruger-only loads is the bare minimum handgun round I'd use.
I think I'd really prefer a belt fed .50 cal machine gun.
Close encounters of the grizzly bear kind are at the top of my "really don't want" list.`

ISTR reading about many guides carrying pump shotguns loaded with hard, deep penetrating slugs.
 
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It's going to take brain hits to stop a charge, guys. So massive amounts of penetration are not required. If you can practice more and get the brain hits more easily with a 9mm, then stick to what you have.
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I'm not so sure. Any major artery or heart or spinal cord injury will also do the trick. Anywhere along the midline, chest up, or what is called the mediastinum, contains lots of stuff that will shutdown a mammal pretty close to an off switch. There are also some nerve plexi that will cause an immediate, if temporary, malfunction.

But more importantly, you're not going to be getting many brain hits with ANY handgun under conditions of a bear attack, and even less so with a 9mm. Skull hits, maybe. There's a reason to aim "right between the eyes" or "behind the ear" on a large animal that is lying still, rather than just anywhere on the cranium.

This is a good question. If a LARGE bear is charging you, where should you aim? I'm thinking COM, with a firearm with good penetration. If you have only a 9mm, then you may be better off trying to be more specific?
 
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Here in Alaska I used to carry a 44 mag as a back-up gun for the last 40 years or so.
Brown Bears, ( what you lower 49 folk call grizzly) leave me alone. I have NEVER had to shoot one in self defense. I have lost meat and fish to them, but I never really needed to shoot one because I was in fear of my life. I have hunted them and I have had to finish off a few that were wounded by other hunters. I have also shot many black bears, often in the line of duty. They cause more troubles than Brown Bears.

attachment.php


However, I have run into more than a few incidents of dealing with two legged yahoos out in the bush. In those cases I wish I had more rounds than my old 6-1/2 inch model 29 was holding. So I started to carry a Glock 20 about 5 years ago. I use a chest holster while out flying, fishing, hunting and photo guiding in the bush.

( yes I know a shotgun or rifle is better, but sometimes they are not the best thing for the situation. Standing in a creek fishing, sleeping in a small tent, squatting over a hole for the call of nature, or gutting a moose. )

Mine has an aftermarket barrel and a heavy recoil spring set-up. I hand-load 200 grain fmj bullets right to 1,200 fps. It will penetrate enough for a bear and I have enough ammo to fight my way back to a better weapon in other situations.

A bear's skull is not easily penetrated, even with some rifles. And it really makes them mad.

200gr FMJ-FP Hornady
13.5gr AA#9
CCI-350
1,250 col taper crimp
1,220 fps good group

14.0 grains was 1,245 fps and over pressure. But good group


10mm auto Taper Crimp Experiment: Bullet: 200 grain Hornady FMJ-FP Case: Star-Line virgin Primer: CCI-350Powder: AA#9 13.2 grains. COL: 1.250 inch Fired from a Glock 20sf, 20 pound recoil spring and stainless guide rod. Stock 4.7 inch barrel Temp 20F. 20 knot wind, blowing snow.

0.25 turn crimp = 1,110 fps
0.50 turn crimp = 1,154 fps
0.75 turn crimp = 1,166 fps
1.00 turn crimp = 1,188 fps duplicates original Norma Load in Glock 20
1.25 turn crimp = 1,160 fps
1.50 turn crimp = 1,152 fps
 

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^^^^Yup, the two legged predators encountered are more likely to be a threat than the four legged. As pistols go the G20 is an excellent choice for two legged and good choice for four legged predators. We do not have Grizzly/Brown/Kodiak/Polar bears in Arizona but we do have Black bears, Mountain Lions, a few stray Jaguars, and too many two legged predators (especially near the southern border). I carry a G20 with a 6" KKM and feed it 200gr Hardcast when in the boonies.
 
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