State cleared in grizzly attack

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gunsmith

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The State doesn't have to protect us yet often (Yosemite/Yellowstone etc)
criminalizes (SIC) carry in wilderness areas.
Could a bill be passed to allow our 2nd amendment right to self defense?
I was thinking "wilderness areas self defense act" a bill to force the Nat Parks to allow firearms in areas that don't have cell phone or visible LE?....I know that in this case the dead guy was not in a nat park, but now that a precedent is set, could it help our cause?


http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2007/05/31/news/state/55-grizzly.txt

State cleared in grizzly attack

By The Associated Press
HELENA - The state is not at fault for the 2001 death of a hunter mauled by a grizzly bear while he was gutting an elk, the Montana Supreme Court ruled Wednesday in dismissing a lawsuit filed by the man's widow.

Mary Ann Hilston contended that negligent management practices led to the death of her husband, Timothy "Omar" Hilston, 50, nearly six years ago.

She sued the state in District Court in September 2005, claiming that the Montana Depart-ment of Fish, Wildlife and Parks knew an aggressive grizzly and two cubs were prowling the Clearwater Wildlife Manage-ment Area northeast of Missoula.

She argued that the agency knew an aggressive bear had taken over a hunter's elk carcass in the management area just days before her husband was attacked.
The suit also claimed that FWP's practice of planting livestock carcasses in the area to draw bears away from surrounding ranch lands created an increased risk of conflict between bears and humans. The FWP failed to warn hunters of the risk, the suit said.

The state contended that because Hilston was hunting in an undeveloped area used for recreational purposes and was attacked by a wild animal, it could not be at fault for his death under provisions of Montana's Recreational Use Immunity Act.

Attorneys for the state said the act broadly protects landowners - including the state - from liability in accidents on land used for recreational purposes.

A five-justice panel of the Supreme Court agreed, ruling unanimously that the state "owed no duty to protect Mr. Hilston from the grizzly bear attack that led to his unfortunate death."

"Grizzly bears are wild animals existing upon the property, and, as such, are a 'condition of the property' for purposes of Montana's Recreational Use Immunity Act," Justice Jim Rice wrote for the court.

Robert Vermillion of Great Falls, one of Mary Ann Hilston's attorneys, said he was "disappointed" by the ruling but declined further comment.

Bob Lane, FWP's chief legal counsel, sympathized with Hilston's family but called the decision "appropriate" and said grizzly bears are part of the wildlands experience in several parts of the state.

The grizzly and her cubs apparently surprised Hilston in the November 2001 attack, biting him repeatedly before he bled to death, a federal investigation determined.

A search party found Hilston's body the day after the attack, along with adult and juvenile grizzly bear tracks.
 
Godless Killing Machines:

colbert-bears-threatdown.jpg
 
Let's just write a new law that bears cannot attack people. That will solve the problem.
 
Could it help out cause? No. Of course not. How would it help our cause to claim that arming folks in the national parks would offer them better protection from animals such as bears when you use a case like this where the guy that was attacked and killed was armed? What do you want to argue, if he was even more armed that maybe he could have protected himself? Was there some law in place keeping him from being more armed?

Think about it. The guy killed and elk and was gutting it. I don't know where he might have had hunter training, but aside from actually approaching bears, one of the most dangerous situations to be in is butchering a carcass or packing out meat from a kill. The smell attracts predators and scavengers. Bears are known to fight each other over kills.

As with the thread on the photographer who was injured, you can't legislate away carelessness, naivete, unpreparedness, stupidity, ignorance or a lack of vigilance. Having a gun does not make people in the wilderness careful, seasoned, prepared, smart, knowledgeable or more vigilant. It just makes them armed, like the hunter who was killed.

The same goes for events like what happened to Kootoo Shaw, the hunting guide for three American hunters. They were armed. They ignorantly or neglectfully thought it okay to sleep in cloth tents in polar bear country and not post a guard or lookout to keep everyone safe. In that case, the attack occurred against a group of armed hunters who were caught like sleeping seals. http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_polar_bear_attack3.htm
Strange thing about Kootoo Shaw, he was a native hunter and professional guide and he and his group got attacked as a result of being careless.
 
I feel sorry for the lady who lost her husband...
I shutter to think what opened her mind to sue the state, thus finding a lawyer like Robert Vermillion to take her case and in the end (her money) when if she was smart enough to realize he took a case he knew he couldnt win, and that he did not care about her husband, her, the bear, the cubs, the elk or anything else.

She probably had coffee with Cindy Sheehan or the woman that spilled hot coffee in her lap, or she was grieving at the funeral home and Robert Vermilion showed up to give her a business card.

I think he should go defend the bear, go out in the woods to find it Robert....PLease go find it....
 
Check out the videos. Note how the bear keeps making repeated situation checks of his local area. There is a reason for that. The bear understands what it means to be in nature and the fact that his kill is apt to attract competition. So the bear remains vigilant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElvHcaXKEgI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAC9egAHRuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7M00aozz9A

There are a lot of hunters, hikers, and photographers that could stand to learn several lessons from bears about being out in the wilderness.
 
This doesn't look like a winner as a test case for carry in national parks. The guy was already armed and it did him jolly little good. If you want legal carry in the national parks, you are going to have to search out cases of people being victimized by other people in national parks as your justification. This case, if anything, works exactly against what you want.
 
This doesn't look like a winner as a test case for carry in national parks. The guy was already armed and it did him jolly little good. If you want legal carry in the national parks, you are going to have to search out cases of people being victimized by other people in national parks as your justification. This case, if anything, works exactly against what you want.

I'm not all that worried about the wildlife in National Parks. I'm worried about the 2 legged predators who see them as "target rich environments"
 
This isn't really 2nd amendment related. I can't see how a hunter going after elk could be significantly better armed than he already is.
 
there are laws like that Ox!

Let's just write a new law that bears cannot attack people. That will solve the problem.

It was introduced in CA last year, to make it illegal for mountain lions to attack you in CA!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=193775&highlight=mountain+lion+law

I've asked the same question of upper management of the nat park system, why don't they make teeth and claws illegal ....from the quote from someone "nature red in tooth and claw"

I see my thread lovers, double naught and Joe D have replied , I'm ignoring them so I don't have to get into long pointless nit picking.

National Park and a National Forest?

http://www.nps.gov/archive/seki/nps_usfs.htm

Basically in many Nat Forest you can carry but not in a nat park..i.e
Yosemite and Yellowstone you cant carry guns but just outside park boundaries you can if your in a nat forest.

I think most have you have missed my point, in this case the State is saying it is not required to protect us in the woods, so I'm saying we can now demonstrate to the State that we must protect ourselves.
I'm sure JD & DNS had a knee jerk reaction to the hunter being armed and being caught unaware. (I ignore them but they are predictable)
Moot point I'm saying we can now demonstrate to the State that we must protect ourselves because they have set a precedent that they can not.
For some reasons many states deny our 2nd amendment rights because we are in a wilderness setting called a park.
This puts us at risk from the most dangerous predator on earth....The deadly two legged varmint!...
 
Last edited:
Just to be clear

this is not a thread about the dead hunter being caught in Elk entrails!

This is a legal and political question about the State saying it has no duty to protect us in wilderness areas, So what I am saying is that being that the State has clearly in a Court said that they can not protect you then that leaves the door open for wilderness carry because we have a right to defend ourselves.

Its not complicated if you get past the bear as "red herring"

So the OP is both legal/political & gun related & 2nd amendment related.
 
So what you're saying is the .Gov wants it both ways, with them being absolved of having to protect you when you're out in the woods, but also taking away your right to protect yourself since you're out there alone?

This is nothing new. Just look at any city/state where CCW isn't allowed. The Supreme Court already ruled that the police aren't required to protect you, so how are you supposed to when the .Gov takes away your right to protect yourself also?
 
quite right GT Steve

Yet this case is a little different because the anti always say that we don't need a gun because we are not in the wilderness and there are no wild animals, & when we go into the wilderness they think all gunnies want to do is kill Gods little creatures.

They say in the city we can call 911 but there is no 911 in a wilderness, hence they open the door to wilderness carry.
 
Yes, but what you are failing to understand, gunsmith, is that you asked if this particular case would help the cause of getting armed carry in the parks.

NO. This is a very bad case for making that argument because the guy who was killed was already carrying a gun, one of sufficient caliber for hunting elk, for crying out loud. He was already armed and he still got killed. So the state has no duty to protect us in the parks. Poorly choosing example cases like this one as your poster child for why we need to be able to carry in the parks simply does not make sense because the hunter caught in the entrails was armed. This is NOT making your point that being armed in a park would be beneficial. In fact, this example would seem to show that being armed did NOTHING to benefit the hunters position and so this example would be used against your cause.

I think people should be allowed to carry in the parks and everywhere else, but you seem to carry a torch for a bunch of people who are clueless to being in the wilderness. A person in the wilderness who is clueless is still clueless whether unarmed or armed. Cases like this are are self defeating.

To be honest, from the examples you keep posting, I am starting to agree with other folks that there are just simply people out there who have Treadwellian destinies and that no matter what laws we enact, they are going to get themselves killed or seriously injured by nature in some rather horrific manners.
 
Double Naught Spy

Old Today, 07:07 AM

Double Naught Spy
This message is hidden because Double Naught Spy is on your ignore list.

I'm sure whatever your writing, looks like a reasonable argument.
But I know If I said the glass is half full you would say it is half empty.

The State clearly said it was not responsible for our protection.
This fact can be used against them

Let me guess dns, you saying something about the guy having a gun?
see "moot point" in earlier thread

This message is hidden because Joe Demko is on your ignore list.
 
I don't know why you PMed me over this. US governments have been forswearing any duty to protect while disarming potential victims.

They can do this because:
1-citizens don't have a right to government protection from private actors.
2-those jurisdictions don't have a right to keep and bear arms that would allow them to protect themselves
3-the 2nd amendment hasn't been formally recognized as preserving such a right and it still hasn't been incorporated into the 14th amendment

1 cannot be changed without flooding every government with lawsuits because the cops didnt protect them from a crime. This isn't a feasible approach.

2 is a political problem too complex to go into right here

3 is currently being pursued through Parker v DC. If DC appeals, we will know where we stand in about a year or so. Even then, it is likely we will need to pursue incorporation separately.
 
I kind of find this case as a scenario of "sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you."

Risk of being in a wilderness area is known, the hunter was armed, and he did not pay attention to his surroundings nor did defend himself?

Why is it the.gov's fault? Any moneys the widow would have gotten would come from the taxpayer of which I am one who see's it as his own fault!
 
thanks for replying lawbot

I pm'd you because you seem to have an actual understanding of the law.
And you proved it by your reply.

Why is it the.gov's fault

It's not the .gov's fault, it's the hunters fault
(though it could have happened to anyone imo)

1-citizens don't have a right to government protection from private actors.
2-those jurisdictions don't have a right to keep and bear arms that would allow them to protect themselves
3-the 2nd amendment hasn't been formally recognized as preserving such a right and it still hasn't been incorporated into the 14th amendment

Thats what I was thinking but somehow I failed to enunciate it, thats why I feel a law could be introduced because the .gov has clearly stated that we have to protect ourselves in wilderness areas yet restricts the very tools used to do that job.
It is more readily even to the most anti fence sitter out there that if your in the woods a gun may be the only thing between you becoming dinner.
A fence sitter feels safe in the city because 911 response time is 10 to 15 minutes (in most cases I guess) but in the wilderness there have been many cases over the years with with all the deadly predators two legged and four, it is time we insisted on things changing and I feel the fence sitters would agree to.
 
Kali Endgame said:
Pardon my ignorance, but what is the difference between a National Park and a National Forest?
Basically, National Forests are administered by the National Forest Service, which in general defers to the laws of the state(s) in which the forest is located regarding carrying of weapons. National Parks are administered by the National Park Service, which has adopted regulations prohibiting the carrying of weapons while in National Parks.

National Monuments also fall under the National Park Service, and likewise prohibit weapons being carried.
 
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