Glock Grip Angle and Wrist Pain

[TomJ]

This morning I was thinking what drunkenpoacher and reskent suggested. I reload, so I'll try shooting primarily light loads through it with a magazine or two of standard loads each range session to keep myself proficient. That shouldn't be a problem. If that doesn't work my oldest son just turned 21. If he shoots it well and wants it I'll give it to him. If not, it'll be time to replace it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The degree of ulnar deviation that is tolerable varies considerably from individual to individual.

...the fault is not necessarily due to some deficiency in the shooter's anatomy, physiology, or technique.

Wouldn't these two statements contradict each other ?

Given that variations exist, wouldn't limitations to the degree of deviation, by definition, be a deficiency?

 

[JR24]

This morning I was thinking what drunkenpoacher and reskent suggested. I reload, so I'll try shooting primarily light loads through it with a magazine or two of standard loads each range session to keep myself proficient. That shouldn't be a problem. If that doesn't work my oldest son just turned 21. If he shoots it well and wants it I'll give it to him. If not, it'll be time to replace it.

Seems like a well reasoned plan. I'd have been tickled pink to be gifted a Glock 19 on my 21st. I'm worried that my son is going to try to talk me out of my Dan Wesson years from now when he turns 21.

 

[JPDeacon]

pblanc

I addressed my remarks to Glock Haters, you answered??????You figure.

 

[pblanc]

Wouldn't these two statements contradict each other ?

Given that variations exist, wouldn't limitations to the degree of deviation, by definition, be a deficiency?

To answer your question, no. Anatomical variations, which are abundant, are not considered "deficiencies".

 

[pblanc]

pblanc

I addressed my remarks to Glock Haters, you answered??????You figure.

Pretty clear who your remarks were addressed to, pal.

 

[9mmepiphany]

To answer your question, no. Anatomical variations, which are abundant, are not considered "deficiencies".

From Merriam-Webster:
Definition of Deficiency:
2. : an amount that is lacking or inadequate

If there is a greater amount of movement/flexibility, a lessor amount would by definition be deficient...lacking or inadequate.

This isn't meant as a personal judgement of your abilities and please don't take it as such, it is just clarifying the meaning of the words we're using.

 

[pblanc]

From Merriam-Webster:
Definition of Deficiency:
2. : an amount that is lacking or inadequate

If there is a greater amount of movement/flexibility, a lessor amount would by definition be deficient...lacking or inadequate.

This isn't meant as a personal judgement of your abilities and please don't take it as such, it is just clarifying the meaning of the words we're using.

Let us consider the most flexible contortionist in the world. By that logic, anyone with a lessor degree of flexibility would be "deficient".
Take the person with the best visual acuity in the world. Anyone with eyesight less good would be deficient.
Consider the NBA player with the greatest vertical leap. Anyone who couldn't jump as high would be deficient.
How about the fastest sprinter in the world? Anyone who could not at least tie that person in the 100 meter would be deficient.

If you want to establish norms for a physical ability or trait, a more reasonable way to do it is to establish a 95 or 99% confidence interval for the trait. Individuals lying outside of that interval might be considered exceptional or limited. Even for those who fell within the lower 1 or 5% of the normal distribution, depending on the particular physical ability or trait, the limitation might well not render their capacity "inadequate".

 

[tarosean]

The 19 has been so reliable and I shoot it so well that I hate to give it up.

Most of your big name manufactures will offer the same reliability.

Might want to look into the new CZ10 since it will fit any g19 holsters you have laying around.

 

[JPDeacon]

pblanc

Didn't mean to get in a pissen' match with you, but I must of hit a nerve..sorry bout that, but I get tired of constant Glock bashing ( not the right angle, ugly, brick, recoil bad) I own Glocks, S&W, Colts, Ruger and yes even a Hi -point. They all go bang, they all hit where I point them (takes a little practice). Like some better than others BUT I don't bad mouth them. I've been shooting for close to seven decades (yes before Glock) but Glocks ALWAYS deliver. Take care and enjoy.
JPDeacon

 

[TomJ]

Most of your big name manufactures will offer the same reliability.

Might want to look into the new CZ10 since it will fit any g19 holsters you have laying around.

That's on my short list as well. I don't know that they've announced a release date yet.

 

[drband]

The small grip angle differences do make a difference in comfort for most shooters. I definitely have strong preferences for which guns I prefer to shoot. I also lean toward heavier recoil-absorbing guns for range use.

Life's too short to shoot guns you don't like! Your son may very well love the Glock! You've got a great option there!

 

[Kano383]

The grip angle just ain't that much different. Recoil has a cumulative effect, the damage was done early and just showed up later when you switched to the Glock.

The anatomical grip angle is not really the line going through the magwell's center, many more factors such as backstrap shape, grip width, height of grip, trigger guard, hand size and shape, stance, head and neck position and dimensions, etc. come into play.

A better way to check if a handgun fits you is to close your eyes, grip it, point the gun letting your hands feel comfortable with their position, and open your eyes. Now, what is your sight picture? Does the front sight look at you, perched far above the rear sight on top of the whole slide, like a monkey on a pole? Does it hide below the rear sight? Or is it there where you need it, somewhere in the notch?

Whatever your sight picture when you open your eyes, that is the position your hands want to be in, but to shoot you have to bring the front sight where it belongs. That's where you get wrist or forearm pain... From aligning your sights on a gun that does not fit you.

Ask any serious shotgunner what he thinks of the importance of gun fit, check to what extent a custom gunmaker goes to adapt the stock to the shooter's body, and you'll understand why "one size fits all" does not work, and why some brands and models of handguns seem to be at odd with so many people's anatomy.

 

[pblanc]

Kano, I use the same method to evaluate how pistols point for me when checking out a new gun at a LGS. Here is another method I have used. Without thinking about it much, bring your hand up to eye level and point your index finger at an object 15 or 20 yards away. Now without changing the angle of your wrist to your forearm, place the pistol in your hand and see if the sights align on the object you pointed at. For me, this is a natural point. My SIGs point this way, as does a Browning Hi-Power GP or CZ 75.

I think many would agree that when compared to most other pistols, Glocks typically require a bit more ulnar deviation (forward and downward wrist cocking) to point. It is pretty common for those who shoot pistols other than Glocks to state that Glocks point high for them, and I have heard many long-time Glock shooters to state that other pistols point low for them. So obviously the grip ergonomics of the Glock can be adapted to by many.

There are some anatomical considerations, however, that can result in wrist pain when shooting pistols that require more ulnar deviation. Note that I am not saying that everyone or even most people will have this trouble, but some will. Here is a simplified diagram of the wrist bones with the wrist in neutral position, ulnar deviation (adduction), and radial deviation (abduction):

Not all of the wrist bones are shown and only one hand bone (the 3rd metacarpal) is shown. When an axial load (think handgun recoil or striking a blow) is applied to the hand, the main force is borne by the bone of the middle finger (3rd metacarpal) and is directly transmitted onto the capitate bone of the wrist. The capitate is the keystone bone of the wrist. The force is then directed upon the scaphoid and lunate bones, and they direct the force onto the articular surfaces of the radius and ulna (primarily the radius). When the wrist is neutral, the force is directed straight back upon the wrist joint and the maximal area of the lunate and scaphoid bones are in postion to absorb the force and apply it to the greatest possible surface area of the articular surface of the radius. That is why a boxer will always try to keep the wrist as straight as possible when landing a blow.

With the wrist in greater amounts of ulnar deviation, the force is directly obliquely onto the joint and less and less surface of the scaphoid bone is in contact with the radius. The triquetrum bone comes into play more, but it is not in the direct pathway of the load. So the axial load gets distributed over less joint surface area. This will cause no problem for many, but may cause an issue with some.

 

[Kano383]

pblanc, thanks for the wrist tech update...

TomJ, on the picture showing the various pistols and "grip angles", draw a line going from the top of the grip position (under the beavertail, where the web of your hand is supposed to rest), to the center of the trigger. You'll notice that there is one in which the position of the trigger finger ends up pointing much lower than all others - the Glock. Instead of having the index finger pointing forward, it points downwards - result of having the web of the hand as close as possible to the bore's axis, without achieving the same alignment for the trigger finger.

On many handguns, when holding the trigger finger straight ahead it is more or less level with the trigger, and needs to be lifted in order to rest on the frame. On Glocks, the top half of the trigger finger pointed forward is resting on the bottom of the frame, and needs to be pointed downwards to engage the trigger.

That's where the design differs most between the grips shown, and that's probably why the OP has pain problems when shooting that handgun.

Point your finger at an object, then, without changing your wrist position, drop your finger tip slightly - you'll immediately feel the discomfort. Some people adapt more easily than others to unnatural positions, some have issues.

It's interesting to note that, in the handguns comparison picture, the CZ, which has a reputation for comfortable grip, is the one with the most "inline" pointing position for the index finger...

 

[Zaydok Allen]

These threads easily go off the rails. We all have our preferences and passions. We don't need to convince each other that one product is superior or inferior, nor bash each other's fervor.

To the op, as already suggested, try the Glock first next time to confirm the pain cause. If it's the culprit, ditch it.

There's plenty of choices out there for you, and some in your own collection.

I shoot Glocks well, but don't like the way they feel in my hand.

 

[bearfoot]

I don't know what ulnar deviation is, but I found when dry-firing my new CZ97 that it seems to come easily to target. Now, I love Glocks (excepting my 42). I have 7. I shoot them well. My first center fire pistol was a G19. But when I tried to aim my Glock 21 and CZ97 one after another, I found the Glock's front sight comes higher to the target (the front sight naturally rose above the rear sight) than the CZ. I don't know what the difference in angle is, but the CZ was more natural, and I finally understand why people have been talking about grip angle all this time. I checked this with other pistols and I think that the difference was not as much with my Glock 30 and 26 with their shorter grips. Now that I see it, though, I can't not see it anymore. Which kinda sucks because I've invested a lot in Glocks and I love the way they go bang with boring regularity. (not that the CZ's and SIG's are any less regular ...) And I know how to shoot them accurately, and whenever I've carried a pistol on my person, it's been a Glock. No disrespect to people who choose or don't choose Glocks, but I think I'm growing as a shooter and refining my definition of what works for me.