Glock guns hit the bull's-eye with US cops

[Madcap_Magician]

I love the Beretta 92, my solution to the safety issue was to carry it decocked, safety off.

On Glock, my law enforcement firearms instructors taught Glocks, and I learned to like them, but versus M&P or XD (I have no significant SIG experience), it's a wash, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen Glocks malfunction, I've seen M&Ps and XDs malfunction. None of them are failure proof, but all are very reliable.

 

[TestPilot]

...Fact is that the 92 FS was chosen because the requirements stated that a manual safety and a traditional hammer system was needed. For the plain clothes guys, they chose the HK USPc.

Now, my opinion. Why a manual safety?
....

Regarding thumb lever types, it is an exchange of risk for another risk. Gaining reduced risk of accident for increased risk of manipulation failure and mechanical failure.

I often had this exchange with its proponents and it's always the same story:

"Manual firing inhibitors(thumb lever type) increase risk of manipulation failure."

"It's a non-issue with more training."

"Then why can't you just train more to be safe with guns without manual firing inhibitors and make that a non-issue?"

"Users will still make mistakes."

"Ohhh, so you're saying manual firnig inhibitors are needed becaue users will make mistakes regardless of training, but AT THE SAME TIME you are saying users will never make mistakes with manipulation of manual firing inhibitors when they train. So, which is it? Do training elimitante manipulation mistakes or does it not? Make up your mind."

Please keep in mind that I am not arguing no one should use a gun with a manual firnig inihibor. I am arguing against those who claim there is only benefits and no risk associated with it.

If a department mandates it for everyone for a non SAO pistol, there is only one reaon: Stupidity.

I love the Beretta 92, my solution to the safety issue was to carry it decocked, safety off.
...

That still leaves some problem. You may leave it disengaged, but that does not mean it will stay disengaged. The lever can be swiped to engaged position by accident during handling, during a struggle with a criminal, etc. Extra caution required for slide manipulation for that reason is also a problem.

 

[ATLDave]

TestPilot, there are many documented cases of user error with non-safety-equipped devices causing bad outcomes, including fatalities. I am unaware of (and, at least a couple of years ago, Mas Ayoob stated he was also unaware of, IIRC) any instances where a bad outcome obtained because of a safety existing. The former seems to be a demonstrated risk. The latter seems theoretical. Perhaps that is because the former risk arises during times of relative relaxation and inattention, where as the latter ONLY happens when the focus is on making the gun go off.

 

[TestPilot]

TestPilot, there are many documented cases of user error with non-safety-equipped devices causing bad outcomes, including fatalities. I am unaware of (and, at least a couple of years ago, Mas Ayoob stated he was also unaware of, IIRC) any instances where a bad outcome obtained because of a safety existing. The former seems to be a demonstrated risk. The latter seems theoretical. Perhaps that is because the former risk arises during times of relative relaxation and inattention, where as the latter ONLY happens when the focus is on making the gun go off.

First, I want to stress that I am not trying to convince people that no one should use guns with manual firing inhibitors. That is not my point.

If mistakes causing accident is possible, then mistakes causing manipulation failure of manual firing inhibitors are also possible.

There certainly are real life case of manipulation failures. The reason why you don't hear about them is that when accidents occur with Glock type guns, the result gets attention because a gun did fire, but when manipulation failure of a manual firing inhibitor occurrs, the result is gun not firing. In a training environment, where majority of it happens, it ends up nothing more than an embarassment, if it gets caught. On a range, the person who made the mistake will think "ooops" then flick the lever, then resume shooting. Other than an awkward split second delay, no one will even notice. However, a criminal who is trying to kill that person will notice.

Also, if we find a dead officer or deputy with a 1911, for example, in hand with the thumb lever in the engaged position, how is anyone going to determine whether if that officer or deputy failed to manipulate the lever or there was no attempt to manipulate the lever at all? Even if the gun was found in the dead person's hand with the lever down, how do we know if it was flicked down after a fumble that allowed the criminal to attack?

On the other hand, if a gun fired, whether if it shold or should not have, we will defenitely know. See the difference?

I've once landed on my palm when I fell during PT session in my military time, and when I had to practice with an M4 that afternoon it took at least a full second for me to flick the selector lever on an M4 because of that injury. Imagine being a second late in a close quartes pistol fight.

Instructor Rob Pincus even challenged people that if they go through his course with a sub-compact 1911 with no mechanical failures or manual firinig inhibitor manipulation mistakes he would refund the tuition. That will give you an insight into how often it actually happens.

 

[Nordeste]

TestPilot;

I don't know if I explained myself properly, but I personally don't like the manual safety on the 92FS. The lever bothers me when I have to rack the slide (I have developed my own technique to do so without engaging the safety) and I agree that it can be depressed unintentionally. On the PX4, however, this has been sorted out much more satisfactorily.

In certain situations, a manual safety can be beneficial. In some others, it isn't. If I were given the chance to choose, I'd choose a Glock 19 over any other pistol for my daily duties. Reasons have been stated above. Large enough, concealable, enough capacity, unholster and bang, and after bang, just reholster. Keep it simple. I even like the trigger, after almost twenty years of firing single action or DA/SA pistols .

 

[tipoc]

manual firing inhibitors

Or as we earth dwellers refer to it as, a manual safety.

tipoc