I liked my S&W 908 so much, I got rid of a Glock 26 and added a 6906. There was nothing wrong with the Glock, but I'm comfortable with TDA and don't think I've lost anything in the change. I'm going to add a spurred hammer to both Smiths and be happy. Also, I'm eying a sweet little 669 to add to my collection. Not that my choice is for everyone. I find myself slipping into curmudgeon-hood here lately. (I must say I've found the experience delightful, even if those around me are less than thrilled.)
Glock or S&W 3rd Gen?
- Thread starter carbuncle
- Start date
- Status
valorius
member
I do not think that the Glock is the most popular pistol in the world. It may be the most popular in america (i dont think it is, i think the 1911 still is- it might be the most popular US cop gun though), but in the world? I really don't think it is. I bet you could travel the entire eastern block and pacific far east and see very few glocks, but tons of Asian designs/Russian designs, as well as the timeless BHP in huge numbers. How many glocks would you see in the ME? Probably very few in relation to other designs. I think we forget here in the US that the world is much bigger than we are.
I would agree that glocks are typical combat service pistols, but i really don't see anything special about them at all. They go boom every time, but so do almost all modern service pistols. Their accuracy is no better than many other pistols, and decidedly less than some. They're certainly not noted for their ergonomics, where other pistols are. And let's face it, if you're a guy who likes manual safety features in your pistol, you're almost certainly not buying a glock.
They are good weapons, but they are largely a long term "fad" in the grand scheme of things....much like the 1911, IMO. (I have owned both, so i am not above the fad myself, lol)
As far as what cops use, let's not forget the FBI's stupid 1006 "10mm lite" phase it went through. Police dep'ts have bureaucracies, and bureaucracies are well known to do stupid things that make little sense.
I recognize that glocks are perfectly serviceable, but it's not a weapon i would ever knowingly select over it's competitors, because i value manual safety features, such as:
*External hammer or striker to totally eliminate holstering accidents
*Manual safety to reduce handling and cleaning accidents, and reduce the chance i'll get killed by a BG if i'm disarmed.
To each their own though.
Full Metal Jacket
member
the most popular in the world was the CZ75, for decades. Glock only in the last few years took the title from them. now CZ's are the second most widely used autopistols by military/LE (not in america, obviously).
glock has military contracts all over the world, from europe to south america, to the middle east. i'm sure glockreaper will jump in here with the numbers once he's done chasing bigfoot out of his potato fields
yeah like i said, that doesn't mean they're the right choice for everyone. some folks, like yourself, prefer an active safety. i'm more of a 1911 than glock guy myself, so, like you, i don't mind a thumb safety for various reasons. my 1911's are a pain in the butt to maintain compared to my glock, but they shoot a lot better. they both have their place for me.
Last edited:
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
Using a qualityi holster and holstering with your finger OFF the trigger does the same thing.
If you're relying on a manual safety to reduce your "handling and cleaning" accidents,
you need more training! Ok, how, exactly, do you go about this? The only way is to keep the safety "on" at all times. Starting with a holstered 3rd Gen S&W carried with the safety "on," how fast can you bring that gun up, ready to shoot?
When I was a cop, we were allowed to carry S&W autos. To be blunt, I was one of the more dedicated shooters in the dept and I could not guarantee being able to wipe off the decocker/safety on my gun, 50 out of 50 times. I decided to carry it safety "off," so I wouldn't become a victim of my own guns' safety device.
Now, if you CAN guarantee a 50 out of 50 success rate, then by all means, it's a viable option for you. But, due to the location of that safety, there are very few that can do that with any type of speed.
REAPER4206969
Member
Most Eastern European countries use the Glock in some fashion. Here is Russia's elite police force.
South Korea, China, Japan, Etc. all use Glock's. Glock even has a satellite factory/importer/service center in Hong Kong.
GLOCK H.K. Ltd.
3102 China Merchants Tower
168 Connaught Road Central
HONG KONG
Tel.: +852 2375 - 3858
Fax: +852 2654 - 7089
http://www.glock.com/english/index_contact.htm
Iraq is the largest single user of Glock pistols with an order for 125,163 Glock 19's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock
They even have a satellite factory/importer/service center in the UAE.
GLOCK Middle East FZE
P.O.Box 54260
Dubai
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Tel.: +971 - 4 - 299 5779
Fax: +971 - 4 - 299 4442
REAPER4206969
Member
It's not easy keeping those damn Bigfeet's away from my 'tatoes.
To the OP:
The 4006, while I own one and like it a lot, is all steel and heavy. Too heavy for a concealed-carry gun IMO. I like my 411 and 4013 .40 cal 3rd gens a lot better for carry.
That said, since your wife's opinion matters here, my wife likes our 3rd gen 9s a lot (5904, 3913, and 908), but doesn't like our 3rd gen .40s much because of the increased muzzle-flip. I can watch her shoot them and see why. She's a great shot with a 9mm 3rd gen (or a BHP), because those are just the most comfortable platform(s) for her after trying a lot of alternatives.
We both really prefer the 3rd gen's SA/DA decocker-safety arrangement over striker-fired or 1911 designs for carry-purposes, but that's just our preference, I'm certainly not advocating it as "best" for everyone.
Les
The 4006, while I own one and like it a lot, is all steel and heavy. Too heavy for a concealed-carry gun IMO. I like my 411 and 4013 .40 cal 3rd gens a lot better for carry.
That said, since your wife's opinion matters here, my wife likes our 3rd gen 9s a lot (5904, 3913, and 908), but doesn't like our 3rd gen .40s much because of the increased muzzle-flip. I can watch her shoot them and see why. She's a great shot with a 9mm 3rd gen (or a BHP), because those are just the most comfortable platform(s) for her after trying a lot of alternatives.
We both really prefer the 3rd gen's SA/DA decocker-safety arrangement over striker-fired or 1911 designs for carry-purposes, but that's just our preference, I'm certainly not advocating it as "best" for everyone.
Les
Full Metal Jacket
member
so you were off camera in the Patterson film chasing bigfeet!
Last edited:
valorius
member
There are an awful lot of limping cops out there that could certainly have used an extra layer of anti-stupid in their firearms. And you know, with a good DA/manual safety pistol, you really don't need any holster at all. I carry my HK P7 in the back pocket of my jeans fairly often, just like i used to carry my DA .357 magnum in the back pocket of my jeans, just like i used to carry my DA 9mm S&W in the back pocket of my jeans. (Not my standard practice, but sometimes it is extremely convenient to just grab the pistol and put it in your pocket)
Or more sleep, or less complacency, or less contempt. Or more money to actually pay for the training you cannot afford.
Whatever the cause, manual safeties stop ND's.
The swipe off of the safety is a muscle memory action, and occurs simultaneous with the draw. It takes exactly 0.0000 extra seconds to remove a safety during a draw.
I carried a S&W 5906/6906 hybrid for over 10 years, i had no problems with mine...because i bought the aftermarket extended ambi safety available for 3rd gen S&Ws. And honestly, if you're having problems with a safety, you definitely need more practice, ie, training. I have no doubt that with more training, had extended levers not been available, i would have definitely been able to master the S&W safety lever.
Did anyone having a problem in your dep't. ever think to ask the armorer to order some extended ambi safety levers? Or just order them themselves?
God invented extended safety levers for a reason.
I agree that the factory levers are a bit trickier. Tis' one of the things that IMO S&W could have improved at some point during the models runs, but apparently they never got enough complaints about it to do so, so it leads one to believe that nationally, it was just not that big a deal...apparently most could reach the safety fine.
If not, they'd have "fixed" it at some point.
Pic of S&W aftermarket extended ambi safety on my old hybrid 59/6906:
Drawing and holding the pistol properly would just about automatically flip the safety to the "red you're dead" position with the extended levers.
Reaper, you cite Russia as a glock user. The pistol makes up about 1% of their total pistols used.
You cite a few countries in Asia, but then you neglect China, who uses none.
You cite Iraq, but it's probably the only country in the ME using them in any numbers.
World wide, they are far from the most common handgun you'll see.
I wonder if there is any kind of a definitive list out there for world wide commonality of handguns.
Last edited:
Full Metal Jacket
member
sure. manual safeties can help prevent ND's. certainly not a "panacea" for ND's of course, you still have to practice safe gun handling techniques.
valorius
member
I agree.
There were some cops in the NJ State police that even managed to shoot themselves while re holstering with HK P7s, which is no easy feat.
Not only did they not take their finger off the trigger, they also didn't even remember to release the squeeze cocker on their pistol. So yes, i agree that for some, no amount of safeties or fail safe features will stop them from ND'ing.
But i definitely believe that many, many ND's are averted every year by manual safeties. ND's that we never hear about, because they never happened.
Even some guns with safeties (like the 1911) have a very high incidence rate of ND's, because of other unique features of the pistol (like not being able to clear the chamber of a 1911 with the safety engaged, for instance)
There were some cops in the NJ State police that even managed to shoot themselves while re holstering with HK P7s, which is no easy feat.
Not only did they not take their finger off the trigger, they also didn't even remember to release the squeeze cocker on their pistol. So yes, i agree that for some, no amount of safeties or fail safe features will stop them from ND'ing.
But i definitely believe that many, many ND's are averted every year by manual safeties. ND's that we never hear about, because they never happened.
Even some guns with safeties (like the 1911) have a very high incidence rate of ND's, because of other unique features of the pistol (like not being able to clear the chamber of a 1911 with the safety engaged, for instance)
Steve 48
Member
There all good handguns if there reliable. Its just preference to the one you like.
IMHO...
I'd go with the Glock! I love the S&W autos. They've proven themselves time and again.
However the Glock remains constant and consistent. Parts are easy to find and they are relatively inexpensive but that is also if you EVER need them. The Glock is easily customized to fit personal needs and with the introduction of the SF (short frame) models there is one out there for almost every hand. I know there are some die hard anti Glockers out there but for the money and value Glock is it for me. I will be joining GSSF and plan on taking full advantage of the discounts and the opportunity to become a certified Glock Armorer.
I currently own a G20C and a G22 and will soon own a G23 and I'm looking for a G25 or 28 for the wife because she loves mine but wants a .380
I'd go with the Glock! I love the S&W autos. They've proven themselves time and again.
However the Glock remains constant and consistent. Parts are easy to find and they are relatively inexpensive but that is also if you EVER need them. The Glock is easily customized to fit personal needs and with the introduction of the SF (short frame) models there is one out there for almost every hand. I know there are some die hard anti Glockers out there but for the money and value Glock is it for me. I will be joining GSSF and plan on taking full advantage of the discounts and the opportunity to become a certified Glock Armorer.
I currently own a G20C and a G22 and will soon own a G23 and I'm looking for a G25 or 28 for the wife because she loves mine but wants a .380
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
It's a double edged sword. Some cops are limping because they FORGOT to decock their gun before holstering it. Some cops are DEAD because they couldn't wipe off the safety fast enough. It cuts both ways.
It might be "convenient," but it's never smart.
Or create them. Or create the "long, easy pull with no BANG at the end of the stroke" syndrome because they forgot or were unable to take the safety off.
Wow, really? How do you access the safety lever when the thumbsnap strap is in the way?
Good for you !! The extended levers, ala the S&W Model 745, would not allow the thumbsnap to fasten. As I said, if YOU can operate your slide mounted safety 50 out of 50 times AT SPEED (which is a critical point) then good for you. I found that I could not hit the safety 50 out of 50 AT SPEED, mainly due to my hand shape and size, coupled with the safety lever location. Would more practice have changed the size and shape of my hand? No.
I refer you again to the aforementioned model 745. They DID address the issue in general, but they knew that safety would not work in the popular thumb break holsters in use at the time, so they never put those big safeties on the "police" guns.
They probably didn't receive too many complaints because most viewed carrying a 3rd gen S&W with the safety on as an OPTION, not a requirement. Therefore, if they had trouble activating it AT SPEED (there's that critical element again) they simply ignored it and regarded it as a decocker and possibly a "kill switch" if they were wrestling for their own gun.
They did, with the model 745. However, the 745 was intended for use in IPSC matches where no one used thumb break holsters. The fact that the 745 is not still around bears mute witness to the fact that the platform was found wanting when it came time to go AT SPEED....even with the extended safety lever......
REAPER4206969
Member
Where are you from?
valorius
member
I have yet to ever see a single verifiable account to back that claim.
The 745 was intended for competition, not combat. It's a single action design, and an apples to oranges comparison.
The 645 and 45xx series service pistols are all DA/Manual safety pistols.
As the thumb snaps the thumb break and slides into a thumb forward position, the safety gets swiped off.
The thumb break on my Galco Miami classic worked fine with my extended safety 3rd Gen S&W.
Hey, if you feel yourself incompetent to operate a manual safety lever, then by all means...don't use one. I have no such problems on several modern designs.
Last edited:
wow6599
Member
Yeah, I know this isn't a 5906 or 4006....but it is a 3rd Gen S&W. Would you take a Glock over it? Anyone?
valorius
member
Not me. I carried a custom 3rd Gen Smith for years.
I liked the extended ambi safety, thought it was a great feature.
I liked the extended ambi safety, thought it was a great feature.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
No, it's not. The big safety levers, designed to be easier to disengage, but weren't enough to make it popular in the fast shooting circles.
NO KIDDING?!
If you're taking your time, sure! How about when you have to make that draw right now? Like, when you see the badguy pulling a gun you didn't see....
The Galco isn't a duty holster and has a thumb break that is less thick and rigid. THERE'S your apples and oranges for you.
So, if anyone has a different view, they're incompetent? Wow, that says a lot. about you....
As I've said several times, my main reason for not utilizing the safety in the "on" position has to do with physiology. My hand/thumb just couldn't activate it reliably at speed.
Maybe those last two key elements mean something different to you, so I looked 'em up for you:
Reliably: 2) giving the same result on successive trials
I want to be able to hit the safety 50 out of 50, if not 100 out of 100 times (getting the same result on successive trials) AT SPEED.
Speed: 3. swiftness or rate of performance or action
I remember one call, we had a guy in a darkened room that was the subject of a domestic call. It wasn't time to draw our guns yet, but me and the other deputy had our hands on our guns. The suspect made a sudden movement and I made one of my faster draws, ever. The other deputy remarked after the fact that he realized my gun was fully out and ready while his was still in the holster. If it had been necessary, I could've shot the suspect well under a second from the moment of his sudden movement. I've made plenty of sub-one second draw/shots, so I know what they feel like. But that particular draw was faster.
I've talked to more than one cop that thought they were pretty damn fast. I've timed their draw, and their first shot can be as slow as FIVE seconds from the start signal. Sometimes longer....
The "fast" cop broke his first shot at 3 seconds.I've worked with cops that failed to decock their gun prior to reholstering. Oops. Can we say "AD waiting to happen?"
Good for you !! But just how fast is that first shot? (you keep avoiding that question....)
.
I just read a thread over on another board that relates to this topic.
Apparently due to demand, the LAPD is offering a decocker school for those officers wishing to transition FROM Glocks TO S&W 4506/4566/4513.
Evidently there are enough officers wanting to do so that the class will be offered for one year. It starts this month. TJ
Apparently due to demand, the LAPD is offering a decocker school for those officers wishing to transition FROM Glocks TO S&W 4506/4566/4513.
Evidently there are enough officers wanting to do so that the class will be offered for one year. It starts this month. TJ
valorius
member
If you are incapable of performing a task, by definition, you are incompetent at that task.
I didn't write the dictionary man.
Obviously you and i are going to have to agree to disagree.
Last edited:
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
Then according to your own words in Post #53, YOU are incompetent at:
HOLSTERING
Gun handling and gun cleaning:
And retaining your weapon:
In stark contrast, me and most other competent folks don't need to rely on a safety or hammer in order to be safe.
And one more time, I never said I couldn't activate the safety, only that I could not reliably do it, 50 times out of 50 times AT SPEED. You keep ignoring the critical "speed" element entirely, so there's clearly is a reason you keep ignoring it.
Homerboy
Member
The NYPD authorizes 3 guns, the Glock 19, the S&W 5946, and the SIG 226. At the times that I left the job, ten years after we transitioned to semi auto's, there was not ONE instance of an ND with a Smith or SIG. ONLY the Glock 19 had them. Fact is that cops draw their guns all the time, and RARELY shoot them outside of the range. So shooting themselves while holstering after firing the weapon is MUCH less likely than reholstering a Glock after running three blocks, fighting with a drunk, or while jittery after doing a felony carstop, and letting a round go If your leg instictively knows to depress the brake pedal before shifting into drive, than you can train yourself to deactivate a safety, and it adds ZERO time to the draw, unless you're already firing as the gun is still in your holster.
Saying a safety is a detriment is ignorant. You're gonna carry a weapon, take the time to learn to use it. Glock markets their product as being perfect for the new shooter. In reality, they (and any other striker fired safety-less semi autos), are the WORST choices.
Saying a safety is a detriment is ignorant. You're gonna carry a weapon, take the time to learn to use it. Glock markets their product as being perfect for the new shooter. In reality, they (and any other striker fired safety-less semi autos), are the WORST choices.
Last edited:
valorius
member
I guess you didn't see where i said we'd have to agree to disagree David?
That meant i was done arguing, and was trying to end the conversation amicably. Now you have had the last word, and i still disagree.
That meant i was done arguing, and was trying to end the conversation amicably. Now you have had the last word, and i still disagree.
- Status
Similar threads
