Going +1 by manually feeding the chamber

[Drail]

Ask youself why am I doing this?

 

[psyopspec]

But then the P7 will also function without an extractor at all.

I've seen this oft-repeated on many forums over the years, but my own HK P7 did not live up to this. I purchased a used one around 2005, Made in W Germany stamped on the slide and a date code matching that era. After a cursory inspection and cleaning, I took it to the range. Halfway through the first magazine, the extractor flew off when the gun was fired. Recalling the information I'd read about it being optional equipment anyway, I continued firing the gun. It could indeed extract; but the empties would not eject, requiring brushing the brass away from the action so that the new round could feed. So one could say it was "functioning" without an extractor, but it was not functioning 100% as I'd read that it could.

Interesting follow-up to that story; when I returned to the shop where I'd purchased it, The Outdoorsman in Fargo, ND, their smith called HK, and the company had the part there in a couple days. No charge from the shop to fix it, no charge from HK for the new extractor. He installed it, and the pistol functioned 100% thereafter, busting another HK myth about bad customer service. I sold the pistol to a friend when I fell on hard times, but it was incredible pleasure to shoot.

The manual for a Beretta 92FS I purchased around the same time as the HK explicitly said it was okay to single load the chamber and let the slide go. IIRC, the manual described this as "admin loading" the pistol.

 

[1911Tuner]

That doesn't mean it's a good idea, and it dang sure doesn't mean you can or should do it every day

While I'm in agreement that the pistol is supposed to feed from the magazine, and should feed from the magazine and that single-loading should be reserved for emergencies...

You may be surprised to learn how many pistols out there push-feed on a regular basis. Those that are used with smooth-topped followers in 8-round magazines most especially are prone to feeding the last round in this manner.

Ever notice small burrs kicked up on the edges of the rims on some of your brass?

Hint: The ratio will be right around 8 or 9:1 depending on whether you top off or not.

Have you seen that? If you have...guess what. Your extractor is climbing the rim on just about every magazine, and you probably need to retension your extractor about every 5,000 rounds give or take.

 

[1911Tuner]

Here's a little story on one of my more memorable experiences with the magazine-induced push feed issue.

Back in the mid-80s, a little paperback book was being sold on the gunshow circuit. It was written and illustrated by one Ken Hallock. It was dirt cheap and a blue million were sold. One of Ken's instructions was to remove the "pip" on the top of the magazine follower for smoother feeding.

In the mid-90s, A friend of mine bought one of the books, and proceeded to file or grind off the pips. Being an avid shooter and by necessity a reloader...he noticed that some of his oft-fired brass was giving him fits entering his shell holder because of the multiple burrs. He was also experiencing reduced and lost tension in his extractors, and thought it odd because he'd never had those problems before.

He called me for a diagnosis. I asked about his magazines. When he told me what he'd done, I told him what the problem was. He believed me. He ordered replacement followers from the Metalform Company, and all his problems vanished.

That silly little bump on the top of the follower was put there for a very good reason.

 

[carbonyl]

Which semi-auto pistols allow for manually loading a round into the chamber then releasing the slide before inserting a full mag? The purposes of this, of course, are to go +1 without the need to load the first round from a Barney mag and to avoid setback from re-chambering a round in the normal fashion.

This is from my Ruger P95 manual.

TO LOAD AND FIRE (WITHOUT MAGAZINE)
In the event that the magazine is missing or for training purposes (where it is
desirable that only one cartridge be loaded and fired at a time for safety), the
pistol can be fired with the magazine removed. To do so, keep the pistol pointed
in a safe direction, engage the safety (lever fully down, white dot and letter “S”
exposed), grasp the slide, and retract it fully to the rear. Next, push the slide stop
upward so that the slide remains to the rear. Insert a single cartridge directly and
fully into the chamber. Taking care to keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction,
depress the slide stop. This will cause the slide to move vigorously forward into
the firing position. WARNING: The pistol is ready for instant use in the singleaction
mode once the slide moves forward and the safety is disengaged.

 

[EddieG54]

I remember reading in a Ruger instruction manual for the LCP on how to load and fire without a magazine. In a nutshell it said lock the slide back, drop a round fully into the chamber and release the slide. Not something I would make a habit of IMO.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've seen this oft-repeated on many forums over the years, but my own HK P7 did not live up to this.

A lot of us doubted it when we heard it. I have never proved it as my extractor has never failed.

I started to believe it when Massad Ayoob ran a torture test on a P7 attempting to shoot it without cleaning until it failed to function. Part way through the test, the extractor disappeared without them noticing it. The flutes in the chamber are said to reduce the case tension of the case in the chamber

 

[psyopspec]

I started to believe it when Massad Ayoob ran a torture test on a P7 attempting to shoot it without cleaning until it failed to function. Part way through the test, the extractor disappeared without them noticing it. The flutes in the chamber are said to reduce the case tension of the case in the chamber

While my own experience differed, I would certainly say it's possible for a P7 to function without an extractor. My primary concern in doing this with a pistol would be stuck cases, and there were none of those when I did it. In this way, the fluting at the very least assists in having an extractor-less gun become a catastrophic failure.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I was loading my Browning Hi Power one time and put a round in the chamber then let the slide go from full lock and that puppy went off. Luckily it was pointed in a safe direction and nobody was hurt. SUPER SCARY.

That suggests that the slide moving forward without having to strip a round (which would slow the slide as the round is stripped from the mag, and slowed more as the round is chambered) is going quite a bit faster than normal, and the inertial movement of the firing pin was enough to ignite the round. If yours was an older BHP (like mine), it probably doesn't have a firing pin block (FPB). If yours is a newer BHP with a FPB, you might want to have it checked out...

I've never heard of that sort of accidental discharge before, but can see how it could happen.

Some guns are designed to allow the extractor to slip over a chambered round; some aren't. (Some newer Berettas will do it without trouble, and I think it's even mentioned in their owner's manual -- but they do have firing pin blocks.)

 

[orionengnr]

You may be surprised to learn how many pistols out there push-feed on a regular basis. Those that are used with smooth-topped followers in 8-round magazines most especially are prone to feeding the last round in this manner.

Ever notice small burrs kicked up on the edges of the rims on some of your brass?

Not sure that I understand the definition of "push-feed". That said...

Tuner, thank you again. Rarely does a day go by without me learning something useful...and as long a it relates to 1911s, so much the better.

I am not quite diligent enough to separate my own fired brass from the range brass I gather after my firing session. To be honest, if it is on the floor and behind the firing line, and no-one else has any interest in collecting it...I will clean up that end of the range, and the range masters are always happy to see "someone/anyone" make their job easier.

Long way of saying, of all the brass I collect, maybe 50% of it was fired through my pistol(s).

But I will start looking more closely at the rims.

Maybe I should start marking my cases with a red permanent marker on the base.

 

[GLOOB]

Not sure that I understand the definition of "push-feed"

Push-feed means the extractor follows behind the rim until the round headspaces against the chamber. Then it slips over the rim, just like what the OP is talking about. Lots of rifles, both semi-automatic and bolt actions, as well some blow back pistols operate this way. If you try to operate a push-feed bolt action upside down you better move the bolt in a hurry, or the round will just drop out the top of the action.

The method by which most of our modern, locked-breech semiauto handguns feed is called controlled-feed. Because the rim slips behind the extractor, the round is under some kind of control all the way into the chamber.

 

[GBExpat]

delete

 

[Fixed Sight Training]

I can see where topping off your mag could be a hassle on the double stack mags that require a mag loader to get the last couple in.

If it's a big deal just load a practice mag and keep it next to your pistol and carry mags. To load put in the practice mag, chamber a round and then switch to your carry mag. You'll have to reload your practice mag every couple weeks.

 

[beatledog7]

I was loading my Browning Hi Power one time and put a round in the chamber then let the slide go from full lock and that puppy went off. Luckily it was pointed in a safe direction and nobody was hurt. [emphasis added]

Really? That was just luck? Let us hope not.

I'm glad to see this thread got some play and even began to generate a list of pistols that can and can't safely and reliably do this. I have only tried it a couple of times with a Glock 22, on which it didn't work but did no harm. While I don't personally see a need to go add a round to its generous 15-round standard capacity. I don't ever load one from a Barney mag and then insert a full mag, as this has proven difficult with my Glock--with the slide in battery, a full mag is the devil to seat; it would be just as difficult if I could manually load the chamber. I lock the slide back, insert a full 15- or 22-rd mag, and overhand the slide. If that's not enough rounds, I'm dead anyway.

But it seems, where viable, to solve the setback problem. It's been interesting to read you guys' opinions and experiences.

 

[Bovice]

You guys have trouble loading the last few rounds in your double stack mags without a loader and it's a struggle to insert a full mag into a pistol that's in battery?

Quit being manchildren, it's not that hard!

 

[beatledog7]

Thanks for that extraordinary burst of high road, Bovice.

I can slap load a full mag into my in-battery Glock if I choose to; I do not choose to because there's no need. As I implied, if 15 rounds is not enough, one more will make no difference. And yeah, the last .40cal round is a real tight squeeze getting in a 22-rd mag, but with a loader it's a snap.

I'm too seasoned and wise to do things the hard way when I don't have to. I'd rather spend my time shooting than loading mags, especially if I'm paying a range for that time. Life's too short!

 

[Fixed Sight Training]

The real answer is to get a 1911. The last round in the mag is easy to load. Then get an extended 10 rd mag and put it in your pocket. Viola, 19 rds and an extra mag in case the first one malfunctions.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The real answer is to get a 1911.

Where do you think the term bullet setback originated from?

 

[Fixed Sight Training]

All autos will suffer from setback if you load the same round over and over.

So the real solution is get a 1911, load it, get an extra 10 rd mag, load it and get a small safe so you can leave it loaded. Don't forget to bolt the safe down.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you have read the thread and followed the links for background, you'd understand why this isn't an answer to the OP's question.

You'd also understand that the 1911's extractor design defines the concerns of the OP

I'll also note that posting "Get a 1911", as much as "Get a Glock", are the kind of non-responses we are trying to avoid here in Handguns: Autoloaders

 

[1911Tuner]

All autos will suffer from setback if you load the same round over and over.

Not with the proper technique and the right magazine.

Where do you think the term bullet setback originated from?

I put that to the test not long ago with a stock Norinco. (Well...Except for a light extractor tweak and the new springs throughout.)

With one of my handloaded hardball rounds, after verifying the 1.265 OAL...20 chamberings later, the bullet moved .002 inch deeper into the case. I'll go ahead and call that a non-issue.

All my magazines are of the tapered feed lip variety, and the technique is to not let the slide slam the round into the chamber, but rather to allow it to feed smoothly at about half-speed. The tapered lips will allow this. Parallel, or "wadcutter" feed lips usually won't.

I get pretty much the same results with all my pistols...even the unaltered USGIs...even with hollowpoints.

 

[Fixed Sight Training]

If you have read the thread and followed the links for background, you'd understand why this isn't an answer to the OP's question.

You'd also understand that the 1911's extractor design defines the concerns of the OP

I'll also note that posting "Get a 1911", as much as "Get a Glock", are the kind of non-responses we are trying to avoid here in Handguns: Autoloaders
__________________

It was half a joke. Don't take things so seriously. It's supposed to be fun.
But the fact is a single stack mag is much easier to top off making the OPs question moot.
Second, Get a safe $40 safe and leave the thing loaded solves all the above issues.

 

[Mike J]

The OP's concern isn't about the difficulty of topping off a magazine it is about bullet setback. Bullet setback can & does happen if you repeatedly chamber & eject the same round.

I am another Ruger P-series owner & I do remember the owners manual saying you could single load without a magazine as carbonyl described. Personally I load from the magazine with all my Semi-autos.

 

[beatledog7]

Leaving the Glock loaded--yes, that's the gun in question since it is my loaded HD pistol-- is not a solution. The gun gets unloaded when it gets taken to the range, which means the previously chambered round gets ejected. I've been diligent about not re-using these rounds, so now I've got a little herd of them (well, a dozen or so) in an MTM box marked "Don't Shoot."

Granted, it's small potatoes next to my inventory of rounds that have never been chambered, but I don't like wasting anything. Pulling them down is wasting time IF they could be chambered manually and fired OR IF they can be safely chambered again from a mag and fired. Frankly, I think the minute loss of case volume that may have been lost or might be lost with one more chambering is probably moot.

Tomorrow I'll empty the mag and measure all 14 rounds and compare to the one that was chambered. I bet there's no setback at all. If I'm right, next range day I'll load a mag with all those once-chambered rounds and fire away. And that will become my new procedure--unload the Glock for range day, put that one round in a magazine marked for range use only, and fire that mag off when it gets full or close to it.

 

[Mike J]

That is pretty much what I do beatledog. The only ammunition I have ever really noticed any noticeable setback with was some of the cheaper Winchester LEO ammunition. I don't remember what it was called but it came in a gold colored box (it was not Ranger). I haven't noticed it with the Remington Golden Sabers I have been carrying the past couple of years.