Good shotgun for HD AND my wife?

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Shpadoinkel

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Yes, yet another HD shotgun question. Sorry.

I’m looking for a good home defense gun that, in the unlikely event that I’m not home at the time, my wife can handle.
To preface this discussion, my wife is not much of a gun person, her father and brothers hunt but she’s a fairly “girly” girl. She’s about 5’7”, 135lb., and about as strong as the average girl that size (I’m about 5’9”, 150lb, medium build). I don't want to get anything that will knock her on her butt and scare her or she won't use it. She wouldn’t be practicing with it all that often, but I want her to know how it works and how to handle it in case there is that 0.00001% chance she’ll need to protect herself and our daughter when I’m not around. So I’m looking for something that has solid stopping power, but also something that she can rack, maneuver and shoot as easy as possible.
I’ve only recently gotten into shooting myself with some friends that have grown up around it. I’m more practiced with a handgun, but I really like what little I have experienced with shotguns. And I’m more comfortable with the idea of a shotgun for HD than a handgun.
The primary purpose for getting the gun is HD, but I will probably use it 5-6 times a year to shoot skeet and possibly some light hunting, plus another couple of times a year at a range. This will be my first gun purchase.

My friends that I have been out shooting with a number of times have all been hunting 20+ years and all swear by the Remington 870 so that is where I have mainly been looking.

I’m in the $200-$350 range, and don’t mind going used.
Options I have been looking at:
Rem 870 12 ga. – Using an aftermarket recoil pad, low recoil loads.

Rem 870 20ga. Youth – Seems ideal in size and weight for my wife, but I have heard mention that due to the reduced weight there could actually be more recoil than the 12 ga., plus I have heard bad things about the hard butt plate.

Rem 870 20ga. Express – The price is right, but I’m scared of what I’m hearing about the extraction issues (especially when using this gun for HD).

Rem 1100 20ga. – Heard great things about the recoil, but it looks like even used it might be out of my price range.

The only aftermarket add-ons I would be interested in is a light (SureFire is out of my price-range for now, but something comparable) and a shorter barrel, probably 18”. I was also heavily considering a shell extension until most topics here mention that it adds a lot of front weight, so that might not be a good idea for my wife.

I know most responses will be, “Just try them all out and see what feels best”. Problem is, how would I do that (see, told you I was new to all this)? There are a couple ranges within driving distance to me but do most respectable ranges have all of the options I listed above on-hand to try out?

I am also open to any recommendations on locks. I don’t want to break the bank but I want it locked up when not in use. Again, being for HD, I would need something that was quick to remove.

Another question about 12ga vs. 20ga:
I would hands-down prefer a 12ga, but I doubt my wife could handle it (friends agree). But in other topics here it sounds like a 870 12ga. with a good aftermarket pad and low-recoil loads would have as much if not less kick than an out of the box 870 20ga. Youth. How true is this?


Alright, that’s it. Sorry for all the questions, you guys just seem to be one of the more knowledgeable boards out there. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
12ga or 20ga, anything with enough power to stop a man will have a lot of kick. If you get the right pad, you can reduce felt recoil to about that of a 20ga. A limbsaver pad or pachmayr decelerator pad are good choices. You and your wife should mostly practice using birdshot so the lighter kick won't turn you off further practice but make sure you throw some buckshot in there every time you take it to the range, to remind yourselves that it's got a lot more kick.

In your price range, I'd actually suggest going for one of the Chinese 870 clones, either the Pardner Protector or the IAC 982. They're better quality than the average 870 express and already come with 18.5" barrels. They go for about $200, leaving you with $150 to spend on ammo for practicing. Most 870 accessories will fit on them with the exception of barrels.

You can also look for a used 870 Wingmaster. If you look hard enough, you could probably find one for less than $300. I think the 18.5" barrels run for about $120-$150.
 
Shpadoinkel,

Where are you? Perhaps there's a member here who lives near enough to you, who might be able to help you with the 'try several then decide' approach to picking a defensive shotgun. Or perhaps you have family members, friends or co-workers who could help- though a discouraging number of new shooters tell me they don't know anyone at all who shoots, hunts or owns firearms.

One of the most critical aspects of shotgun shooting is the fit of the gun to the shooter. Many factory stocks are too long for a certain number of shooters- they're an 'average' length after all, which means too short for some, just right for some, and too long for others. Job 1 with a shotgun for a new shooter is proper gun fit. You will need help with that.

Job 2 is learning proper form and a good gun mount. Again- help from an experienced shotgunner is the best approach to this IMHO.

Picking gauge and gun is important, but less critical than you might imagine IF the issues above are handled properly. A premium recoil pad on a properly fitted gun makes a world of difference in managing recoil successfully, and is not a great challenge or expense to get installed. I prefer wood furniture on guns that will need stock work, as it's easier to manage for the gunsmith doing the work than most synthetics.

Defensive shotguns aren't terribly expensive to obtain, nor are they rocket science to manage. But it does take some preparation and care to match shooter, shotgun, action type and gauge. So far you seem to be looking at all the right things for all the right reasons...

lpl
 
I finally got the wife to shoot the HD shotgun last week after many, many years.

She agreed the recoil was not that bad.
She agreed that the 12 GA slug would very likely end the threat quickly.
She agreed it was easy to shoot and not as heavy as she thought.
She still hates it.

She loves her .45 Kimber and that will be what she goes with. What is good for you and me not be good for her.
 
I helped a lady friend purchase a home defense weapon. I recommended a 20 ga. Mossberg pump (500) She found a youth model with a shorter synthetic stock and bought it. I took her shooting after finding how difficult it is to find 20 ga. buckshot in 2 3/4". I bought some slugs, some 3" buckshot and she got some birdshot. We went to an outdoor range to break it (and her) in. Holy smoke---20ga. slugs kick harder than my 12 ga. She hated slugs, didn't like buckshot, but tolerated birdshot. Not a great choice.
If I were to do it again, I would, hands down, recommend a Mossberg 500 in .410 with a pistol grip. No, really. They call it their home defense shotgun. Yes, .410 is hard to find, but so is 20 ga. My 12 ga. Mossy has the Blackhawk (Knoxx) breacher's grip and I could shoot it all day from the hip.
.410 pellets are traveling just as fast and are the size of a .38 bullet! There are 5 being fired at once. Ouch!
Yep. Mossy .410 pump with a breacher's grip for any woman. Look out!
 
Thank you all for the helpful responses. I am trying to learn as much as possible as quickly as I can.
Great suggestion on looking into the Pardner Protector. After reading the almost 100% positive reviews and seeing the price tag, I was about ready to hop in the car. But after looking into the barrel situation I’m on the fence. Though I don’t see myself doing a lot of clay and hunting, I don’t want to be the one guy out of my group of friends that can’t change his barrel out to go in the field after messing around with targets. The decision to make you send the gun in to the company to get the barrel changed out seems fairly insane. I did see a couple comments on some other boards mentioning it is possible (and fairly easy) to modify it so that you can use 870 barrels, though not one person mentions how.
I have all but completely dismissed the 870 Express (any version) as an option as time and time again the extraction issue comes up. I hear it’s an easy fix of polishing the chamber but being as inexperienced as I am, I don’t even know if I could do that without messing something up. And I don’t know if I want to buy a gun for $350+ knowing that I have to fix it the second I take it out of the box. For HD, extraction issues are not something I want to have to worry about.

So my new options seem to be:
Pardner Protector (about $200 in my area) + aftermarket limbsaver pad + low-recoil load for the wife
Or, a Used 870P or Moss 500 + extra barrels (probably north of $350) + aftermarket limbsaver pad + low-recoil load for the wife

I’m thinking, since this is my first gun purchase I might just need to ease myself into it. Get the Pardner Protector and just get it in my mind that it’s going to be used for HD and HD only. Once I have that for a while, get comfortable with how everything works, put a few hundred (or thousand) rounds through it and save up for a nice Wingmaster or something later to go out in the field with the boys. I could always borrow one of their spares until then.

Now the original concern about my wife using it, I would just have to hope that the aftermarket pad and light load rounds are enough to offset the fact that it’s a 12ga. I’ve heard it’s a little on the heavy side which worries me. If it’s a pound or so heavier than an 870 (not sure of the weight difference), is that going to cause a usability issue for her I should worry about?
If I just took her to Gardner Mountain, would she be able to get a good enough feel with it to know if the size and weight will work for her or not without firing the gun? If it is a little long for her, would getting a collapsible stock help shorten it up and make it fit better?


And to Lee Lapin, I live just outside of Detroit (hence the want for an HD shotty). As short as a 2 hour drive north and you’re in hunting heaven. So now that I’ve moved up here for good and made some friends that have lived here all their lives, I’m just about the only one in the group that hasn’t grown up on venison and partridge. But I’m warming up to it fast.


Regarding locks, is there any one brand better than another or is a lock a lock? At this point I probably just need a good trigger lock, if I end up getting more than one gun, I’ll move to a safe.
 
I discourage locks but if you feel the need for your HD shotgun:

images


Available here and other places:

http://gunracks.tylerrose.com/rifle-racks.htm
 
I recommend not getting a collapsible stock because they make recoil worse until you get into the $100+ range (such as the Knoxx Spec-Ops stock or the Mesa Tactical Low Tube Kit). Have your wife handle a few youth sized shotguns at Gander Mountain. If she says the stock is ok lengthwise, buy a youth sized stock such as the 12" LOP Hogue Stock or cut down the stock on your shotgun. It's better for you to use a stock that is too short than for the wife to use one that is too long. Here's a video on why shorter stocks are better for the kind of shooting an HD situation would require anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfH_v9rv3Js&feature=related.
 
I have strong doubts about the .410 as a home defense gun. If the 20 gauge is too much, I would suggest a pistol caliber carbine. The 9mm Hi-Point is cheap and durable with a 10 round magazine and very little recoil. The longer barrel gives it a power boost over a pistol because it give greater velocity.
 
Get a Mossberg 500 persuader or a 870. My wife does not like the recoil of a shotgun but would use it first in a HD situation over her LCP. Why ......... because of the shotguns one shot stopping power.
 
The thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=426868 might help some, too.

Some of the youth model guns are almost tailor made to fit smaller statured shooters. And there are some 20 gauge 2 3/4" buckshot loads now with an MV of a bit over 1100 FPS- right in the territory of reduced recoil 12 gauge loads. Those work- they made my neice happy enough before Christmas when she visited for a session of Defensive Shotgun 101, and took home the Reminngton 870 Express Youth model 20 gauge that she trained with. A premium recoil pad to replace the inexpensive factory pad would work even better.

The overall weight of the gun may be an issue, the heavier it is, the harder it will be for your wife to support and swing. There definitely is a tradeoff between weight and recoil. Recoil is something to be mastered over time with training and experience- it's an inescapeable part of shooting a shotgun of any useful bore size for defense. If the budget allows, a good gas operated gun (like the Remington 11-87 Youth model in 20 gauge) might be worth considering.

Patience, experimentation and willingness to adapt are necessary for a successful outcome here. The biggest advantage of pump shotguns is that they are readily available and relatively inexpensive. I'd be willing to take advantage of that advantage if necessary, or to wait, experiment, make a selection that you know from experience suits your wife. Again, try gun clubs in your area and see if they have rental guns for beginning shooters. Talk to friends and family members, and see if they have shotguns used by new shooters previously or currently, and see if you and your wife can shoot them (you buy the ammo though, and pay any range fees). IMHO you both need some trigger time before you start spending your own money...

fwiw,

lpl
 
Got a Chinese 372 (Ithaca 37 clone) with 18.5", heatshield, ghost ring, sling, synthetic everything, for $160 new at Big 5. Heavy as all get out, and the action is rough ... which is my point. Until you put a few hundred through it, or give it to a smith to polish, the chinese clones aren't "finished." Cheap, heavy, and functional, but not smooth.

So I'd recommend a used Remmy or Mossy that's been shot, and shot and shot some more if you go for a pump. HD guns usually spend most of their time loaded, in a corner for months at a time. You want it broke in if you're going to reach for it to save your life.

All that said, I second the 20ga 11-87 idea. A little more $ to be sure, but the out of the box finish will be good, and the semis absorb a little recoil in the action.
 
Thank you everyone for all of the advice.

Upon more research and talking to friends and family, I’m looking for an HD gun and an HD gun only. I was originally considering taking this up north with me a couple times a year with my friends, but if I’m up north and my gun is up north… my wife is at home with nothing but a cell phone for protection. So it doesn’t make sense to get a more expensive multi-purpose gun at this point in time.

I went to the local used gun place this morning (who by all accounts has very competitive used gun prices for our area) and yikes, it would seem being so close to so much good hunting has its disadvantages. Used 870 Expresses with no extras were at $380, and used Moss 500’s were going for $350. I didn’t see a Wingmaster under $450. Nowhere close to the prices I see other people claiming to get where they are.
Even a Pardner Protector isn’t lower than $220 at any local retailer I called (others seem to be able to pick this up for $130-150). Oh, and thanks a pant-load Michael Moore, no Walmart in my area carries firearms anymore. Does any Walmart carry firearms anymore?

This is what I’m currently considering:
Pardner Protector
Knoxx SpecOps Stock
Total = $315 (approx.)

It’s basically the equivalent of an 870 Tactical I saw this morning which I liked a lot and seems it would be great for HD, but for over $300 less.
I just don’t have the cash right now for a higher-end gun. I also don’t have a need for this gun to do anything outside of range shooting every couple of months and HD, if I did, I think I would save up and get an 870.

I think the Knoxx stock would really help my wife. Not only for the reduced recoil, but also the adjustable length. And it was nice that the 870 Tactical this morning had it because I got a good feel for it. I think it would be a good addition, anyone disagree?

Anyone see anything wrong with how I’m leaning right now?
Again, I agree with everyone that said go with a used higher-end gun, but in my area, I can't afford it. I can afford a Pardner.


Regarding the Pardner Protector and the Knoxx SpecOps stock, does anyone know for sure if they’re compatible? I’ve heard that everything but barrels are interchangeable between the 870 and Pardner, but I’d like to know for sure before jumping into this.
 
At Walmart you can order guns, they just don't have them in the store. I did however see a Walmart in Tuscon that still had guns in the store. I would suggest getting the youth model 870 or 500 and then putting on a recoil pad.
 
You might want to look into a 12 Gauge Pardner Protector Pump. The gun carries 5 12 gauge cartridges, is EXTREMELY reliable and sturdy, and runs for about $180 new. It has an OK recoil pad already. It's basically a chinese copy of a Rem 870, but is built a lot better than the newer ones in my opinion.
 
Another question about 12ga vs. 20ga:
I would hands-down prefer a 12ga, but I doubt my wife could handle it (friends agree). But in other topics here it sounds like a 870 12ga. with a good aftermarket pad and low-recoil loads would have as much if not less kick than an out of the box 870 20ga. Youth. How true is this?
Click to expand...

My wife is a skinny girl, and not very strong, but she manages a 12 gauge, with low recoil buckshot or slugs, just fine. I should say that her stock fits her very very well, and it has a nice recoil pad, and she holds it properly.

I don't believe in buying a 20 gauge for defense, because a lightweight 20 gauge firing high powered shells, in an attempt to match 12 gauge effectiveness, often ends up recoiling as much as a full powered 12 gauge would have. You can load the 12 gauge up or down to match the situation, you can't do that with a 20 gauge.
 
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I just went through this same drill selecting a shotgun for my slender (but tough) girlfriend. I settled on a Mossberg 500 20ga with the 18.5" barrel and synthetic stock. I chose this based upon input from friends on the SWAT team and quite a lot of personal experience shooting this size round. I was also concerned that the equivalent 12ga weighed more than the 20ga; I wanted to keep the weapon as light as possible. Something I also considered was a double barreled carriage gun, which was even lighter but limited to 2 rounds. I don't feel there's a perfect answer, just get something that the person is comfortable with and practice! Hope this helps!
 
See if you can rent or borrow a 12 and 20 ga for her to try out at your local range. Maybe even a .410 if she can't handle the 20...though I've never been one to seriously utter .410 and self defense in the same breath...with slugs it will be better than a stick.
 
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