Got some vertical stringing

[Axis II]

223rem, 55gr Nosler ballistic tip, 25.3gr Benchmark, same year LC brass and cci 450 primer. Cold to Luke warm barrel, 200yards, front rest and rear bag, solid bench. Temp was 70 degrees. I really don’t get why I’m getting groups like this. This makes the 3rd time I’ve tried this combo at 200 and it’s always rising and 3” groups. Bottom group was 100yards. Center and top was at 200yards. The top right load went completely off the paper.

what can I do to tighten them up a bit or keep from rising like this?

 

[Walkalong]

Differing shoulder pressures?

Need to tweak the charge weight?

 

[codytrucker]

play with your action screw torque pressure , go up and or down in 2 or 3 lb increments. from about 30 lbs up to as much as 65 , if its synthetic stocked. up to about 50 if you have a wood stock .

 

[Axis II]

Differing shoulder pressures?

Need to tweak the charge weight?

Still kind of new to this so not sure what you mean about the shoulder pressure. I am FL sizing everything and bumping the shoulder 2-3th

Down is about the only way I can go unless I change powders. I don’t understand how something can shoot so good at 100yards but do this consistently at 200yards.

 

[Axis II]

play with your action screw torque pressure , go up and or down in 2 or 3 lb increments. from about 30 lbs up to as much as 65 , if its synthetic stocked. up to about 50 if you have a wood stock .

I have a Boyd’s that’s not pillar bedded.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I had that happen to me shooting my 10/22 one time. I was making a line almost straight across lol. It was me not the gun or ammo.

 

[codytrucker]

I have a Boyd’s that’s not pillar bedded.

make sure there isn't anything making unnecessary contact , that your barrel doesn't have some odd pressure on it . I have a boyd's on a ruger american that the trigger adjustment screw was tight against the wood in the inletting and it was stringing my shots out horizontally . relieved the pressure and it shoots good , round groups now. Just a thought .
I would go up to maybe 45 inch pounds at the most , probably start about 30 .

 

[Walkalong]

Still kind of new to this so not sure what you mean about the shoulder pressure. I am FL sizing everything and bumping the shoulder 2-3th

Down is about the only way I can go unless I change powders. I don’t understand how something can shoot so good at 100yards but do this consistently at 200yards.

Inconsistent shoulder pressure will give stringing like that.

 

[kmw1954]

Still kind of new to this so not sure what you mean about the shoulder pressure. I am FL sizing everything and bumping the shoulder 2-3th

Down is about the only way I can go unless I change powders. I don’t understand how something can shoot so good at 100yards but do this consistently at 200yards.

pretty sure he is referring to your rifle shoulder, not the bullet shoulder.

A number of the bench shooters I shoot with do all their load development at 200yds.. Just because like you they have seen good loads fall apart from 100 to 200yds. and from 100 to 300yds.. Or should I say, by their standards they fall apart.

 

[Axis II]

Inconsistent shoulder pressure will give stringing like that.

I see what your saying now. I was half asleep and dog tired from rabbit hunting all day. I honestly thought you were referring to shoulder pressure on the case and not how I shoulder the rifle. Any tips on fixing this issue? I am using a Boyd’s classic stock.

 

[Axis II]

pretty sure he is referring to your rifle shoulder, not the bullet shoulder.

A number of the bench shooters I shoot with do all their load development at 200yds.. Just because like you they have seen good loads fall apart from 100 to 200yds. and from 100 to 300yds.. Or should I say, by their standards they fall apart.

Yeah, I thought he meant shoulder pressure on the case. I said to myself I’ve never heard that one before.

 

[Varminterror]

I don’t understand how something can shoot so good at 100yards but do this consistently at 200yards.

200 isn’t yet far enough that load performance (external ballistic differences) have a significant influence. The major difference between 100yrd groups and 200yrd groups is mechanical - you’re shooting literally twice as far, with the same optical sighting device… it’s simply too easy to have some drift in POA because the target is now half as large. This is why multiple range competition formats use “scaled targets” - the target picture has to be the same at all ranges, otherwise the game has changed significantly.

Or, as @Walkalong mentioned, you may be tensing at 200 because of your reduced target feedback and muscling the rifle more, which is very difficult to do with any degree of consistency. Or possibly managing the trigger with a bit greater panic because of the apparently increased wobble area…

This also offers evidence as to why shooters should zero rifles at 100yrds, rather than 200. The ability to hold hard enough at 200 to promote a consistent zero, as consistent as possible at 100yrds, is exceptionally rare.

 

[AJC1]

Heat movement may be an issue. Slide a dollar bill down the warm barrel looking for contact. Go down in charge weight to check impulse timing. You may be in a transition area.

 

[joneb]

A consistent hold on a firearm effects the point of impact.
With this hand gun I fire three shots with a firm hold and two shots with a light hold,
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...z0ucqewnbvclozfa-owa-outlook-live-jpg.793509/
Could be the stock's length of pull is to short for you?

 

[Axis II]

A consistent hold on a firearm effects the point of impact.
With this hand gun I fire three shots with a firm hold and two shots with a light hold,
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...z0ucqewnbvclozfa-owa-outlook-live-jpg.793509/
Could be the stock's length of pull is to short for you?

Not sure. It’s a standard LOP Boyd’s classic. I
Will say I am 6ft6 350lbs so maybe I do need a longer LoP

 

[Axis II]

Heat movement may be an issue. Slide a dollar bill down the warm barrel looking for contact. Go down in charge weight to check impulse timing. You may be in a transition area.

Sorry you lost me on this one

 

[LiveLife]

I have seen this many times, especially during my 10,000 round testing with 22LR at 50/100 yards. After checking different things and much head scratching, came to the conclusion that it was shooter input and not due to rifle/ammunition.

And if you compare the 100 yard group at bottom right to 200 yard group, to me diagonal dispersion looks similar, just twice the size so whatever you were doing at 100 yards could be showing up on 200 yard group, just bigger.

 

[lightman]

Sorry you lost me on this one

He's talking about the barrel moving when it changes temperature and maybe contacting the stock. Run a dollar bill down the barrel chancel and see if it touches the stock anyplace.

I would also look at the muzzle crown and possibly redo it.

 

[Varminterror]

Putting these on the table:

1) @LiveLife called it out - there’s about twice as much vertical in the 200yrd group (and Low right to high left) as there is in the 100yrd group. Shoot some 10 shot groups and see where they go - likely you’re seeing statistically consistent shapes, just not recognizing it.

2) Lots of red herrings being speculated in this thread which simply don’t align with the proposed problem - a perceived discontinuity between 100yrds and 200yrds… chasing muzzle crown or thermal expansion, action screw torque, failing free float, chasing charge weight, etc… all of those things are contributors to raw precision, but don’t truly influence anything which would cause differentiation between 100yrd groups and 200yrd groups. If absolute precision were the issue, and common trends happened at BOTH ranges, then sure, we look at common culprits, but the premise (correct or not, see point 1 above) was that the 100yrd groups were coming apart by 200, and none of those explain anything which could happen between 100 and 200.

Chase the right rabbits if you want to get fed.

 

[kmw1954]

2) Lots of red herrings being speculated in this thread which simply don’t align with the proposed problem -

Chase the right rabbits if you want to get fed.

Here is one for you all.
Last week I went and shot my weekly League target which was set up at 300yds. A common distance for this activity. After getting all set up and adjusting the scope for the distance I fired my fist shot and seen nothing. 2more and again nothing. After 6 shots and no hits I had to go look. What I found were 2 .224" holes at the very top of the target. 10" high.

No clue as to why as I had just shot to 200yds and 300yds the week before and was right on target. Adjusted the scope down and then continued my target. With 6 shots off target my score stunk. Showed this to many friends and no one could give an explanation.

This week went back to shot and test again. Target a plain white paper with 2 1" orange dots at the top. Scope was set to deliberately shoot low. 2 different loads shot and each shot low as expected. Adjust back to normal setting and was once again dead on target with both loads.

So to keep on topic this was vertical stringing 10" up from normal.

 

[joneb]

Will say I am 6ft6 350lbs so maybe I do need a longer LoP

I put a Limb Saver slip on recoil pad on a 30-30 Win. to increase the LOP I shoot the gun much better now.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...tqwywytyjqzns1hywfhywfhywfhyweifq-jpg.834901/

 

[Metal God]

Couple things IMHO . I think the idea of bedding the action and a consistent action screw torque would do wonders .

What x scope are you using ? I can get all kinds of "stringing" with low power scopes 9x or less . It's just harder to hold in the exact same spot the longer the shot is . I can shoot ok groups but need high magnification to be precise . Reticle size can play a factor as well but these are secondary issues to a solid rifle , good load and skill level .

 

[mokin]

... This also offers evidence as to why shooters should zero rifles at 100yrds, rather than 200. The ability to hold hard enough at 200 to promote a consistent zero, as consistent as possible at 100yrds, is exceptionally rare.

... And if you compare the 100 yard group at bottom right to 200 yard group, to me diagonal dispersion looks similar, just twice the size so whatever you were doing at 100 yards could be showing up on 200 yard group, just bigger.

Where were you guys 20 years ago? I had to figure that out on my own.

All you newer, younger shooters better be paying attention.

 

[LiveLife]

Take a look at these 22LR 50 yard groups of trigger input on T/CR22 with lighter 2 lb trigger and 10/22 with 2.5 lb trigger (Both with Volquartsen trigger kit)

Top row and bottom left shows T/CR22 Aguila and CCI groups with slight vertical stringing with "flyers" at diagonal angle.

And here's 10/22 groups showing diagonal vertical stringing consistent with OP's 200 yard group.

And here are groups I shot to bring POI in line with POA. Notice the diagonal vertical sringing?

And here are 100 yard groups. Yup, shooter input on trigger/grip.

And when doing turret tracking box test for Viridian 6-24x50mm at 100 yards with 22LR, extra trigger control was exercised but you can still see some diagonal stringing (Oh and that high first shot? Don't sneeze when you are doing precision shooting ... Geez )

I am getting ready to test Athlon BTR 10-40x56mm with my ARs so will post groups if I capture more diagonal stringing at longer range.

 

[Axis II]

Putting these on the table:

1) @LiveLife called it out - there’s about twice as much vertical in the 200yrd group (and Low right to high left) as there is in the 100yrd group. Shoot some 10 shot groups and see where they go - likely you’re seeing statistically consistent shapes, just not recognizing it.

2) Lots of red herrings being speculated in this thread which simply don’t align with the proposed problem - a perceived discontinuity between 100yrds and 200yrds… chasing muzzle crown or thermal expansion, action screw torque, failing free float, chasing charge weight, etc… all of those things are contributors to raw precision, but don’t truly influence anything which would cause differentiation between 100yrd groups and 200yrd groups. If absolute precision were the issue, and common trends happened at BOTH ranges, then sure, we look at common culprits, but the premise (correct or not, see point 1 above) was that the 100yrd groups were coming apart by 200, and none of those explain anything which could happen between 100 and 200.

Chase the right rabbits if you want to get fed.

How can I fix it?