GRAPEVINE: US Army Pays $207 Per Pistol to SIG SAUER for M17 Modular Handguns

[ilbob]

Interesting.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ent=2017-01-28&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

I would like a couple at that price.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Interesting.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ent=2017-01-28&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

I would like a couple at that price.

You won't get one for that price. Non of us will.

IF and WHEN M17 pistols hit the civilian market, I can imagine the markup to be at least in the $600 range and on up. SIG will play off the military adoption and milk it for all it's worth, and people won't care. They'll sell every single one they make. You also have to understand the collector desire for this pistol will be incredible. I imagine out of stock vendors everywhere and massive price inflation months or even years after they hit the market.

So I don't have my fingers crossed to get an M17 anytime soon. I'm talking about one that has the correct markings, safety lever, and other things in the true military version, not a box stock P320.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Why do I get the feeling that there will be a lot of units who just keep misplacing that turn-in request for their M9 Berettas.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Not meaning to bash the M17. This makes me wonder if it was all about the low bid.

 

[GRIZ22]

Not meaning to bash the M17. This makes me wonder if it was all about the low bid.

If it meets the specs and it's the low bidder that's who gets the contract.

You can bid $207 a pistol when you know you're going to be selling close to a million pistols. There's no distributor or dealer that needs to make a profit. Add to that several million will be sold to tell LE and civilian market at a normal profit margin.

The article says the aluminum frame of the 92 has a finite life. I'm sure most 92s in service see less than 100 rounds a year. They only come out for qualification once a year. That would put most 92s at 3,000 rds or less. I'd say they have a lot of life left in them. After he takes care of more important stuff I'm sure the Trump administration will have the 92s sold through CMP.

 

[HankC]

Think of the bright side, you can pick up $200 Beretta M9s that no one wants!

 

[BearBrimstone]

The amazing part of that price is if you don't factor in research and development into the price the $207 is likely quite a bit more than it actually costs Sig to make the pistol.

 

[strambo]

Why do I get the feeling that there will be a lot of units who just keep misplacing that turn-in request for their M9 Berettas.

It doesn't work that way, besides, I can't imagine anyone wanting to keep their big, beat up old M9's.

It's kinda comical to me, the "gunny" reaction to this. A week before the announcement, an M9 thread would contain a lot of bashing. After this announcement, all we hear about is how much of a waste of $ it is and how the M9's are just fine etc. The M9 was fine, they are reliable and get the job done. They are also overly large (hard for smaller hands to grip/operate), heavy, and have that hideous slide-mounted safety/decocker and are getting quite long in the tooth. They aren't going to be missed by anyone I've ever met in my Army career.

 

[.455_Hunter]

It doesn't work that way, besides, I can't imagine anyone wanting to keep their big, beat up old M9's.

It's kinda comical to me, the "gunny" reaction to this. A week before the announcement, an M9 thread would contain a lot of bashing. After this announcement, all we hear about is how much of a waste of $ it is and how the M9's are just fine etc. The M9 was fine, they are reliable and get the job done. They are also overly large (hard for smaller hands to grip/operate), heavy, and have that hideous slide-mounted safety/decocker and are getting quite long in the tooth. They aren't going to be missed by anyone I've ever met in my Army career.

Yes it does work that way, and yes, I have plenty of first hand experience working with the DOL/G4/S4 supply chain. And yes, there are plenty of active duty folks who are not jumping up and down about this announcement and anxious about losing their M9s- I just spoke to some of my former cohorts last week. Not every M9 is a worn out boat anchor , with some units ACTUALLY taking pride in weapons maintenance.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I was never in the Army and I have no insight into the popularity or unpopularity of the M9 among servicepeople. But for my own part I dislike the 92. It is pretty much the opposite of everything I like in a sidearm. It's large, clunky, the grip shape sucks and isn't adjustable, and it's what Cooper called a 'crunchenticker', DA only with no provision to carry cocked-and-locked. I utterly loath slide mounted safeties and/or decockers. I'm certainly not saying it's not a high quality sidearm, but it's not sidearm I would have any use for if I am choosing.

 

[strambo]

Yes it does work that way, and yes, I have plenty of first hand experience working with the DOL/G4/S4 supply chain. And yes, there are plenty of active duty folks who are not jumping up and down about this announcement and anxious about losing their M9s- I just spoke to some of my former cohorts last week. Not every M9 is a worn out boat anchor , with some units ACTUALLY taking pride in weapons maintenance.

So...your unit gets scheduled for fielding of the M17 and you tell the PBO to what, screw themselves? I'm coming at this from the side of the commander who is signing for the stuff, not the G4 end. I didn't know I got to pick and choose what I wanted to keep...

Anyway, well-maintained M9's are great, that doesn't make their grip fit the female who has never shot a pistol before and help her to qualify. I'm not just a BN commander, but also an instructor, as an instructor I'll take a P320 any day of the week and twice on Sunday to teach new shooters how to run it over an M9,

Personally, I have nothing against the M9, carried them on 2 combat tours. Objectively, they have a lot to be desired for a general issue pistol. Just my opinion.

 

[JohnKSa]

I would like a couple at that price.

I'm sure they would be happy to sell you a couple at that price as long as you promised to spend another half billion dollars or so buying their products.

 

[Tirod]

It's been mentioned in other posts on the net that the Beretta was nearly the same price. What you are seeing as a bid price stlll leaves some room for profit. Now, if the factory sells a specific model in 1,000 gun lots to a distibutor, who sells to a wholesaler in smaller lots, who sells to a gun store by the one and two gun shipment, you get to see it marked up THREE (3) times.

We should be glad cars go direct from the factory to the dealer. No, your local gun store or big box is not buying direct, very few do, and when they do, the factory stays running for months. Not just a few hours.

Now, imagine the next 1,000 gun lot being shipped in a different color. That means cleaning out the injection system for the polymer parts - or having another one, which doubles the production overhead. Not to forget those slides and other metal bits get "cerakoted" in a different batch than the first, again causing incremental costs of fabrication to increase. Add a few spoiled grips and slides from a poor or inconsistent color or finish which get scrapped. It starts costing more than running the production out further in the original.

Go look at the catalogs for some pistols - say, the SIG P938 - and see how many variations exist in. Standard and melt, metal color variations, grips, etc. and with each change the costs go up as the smaller batches mean the changeover just to be different will have increased labor, resetting the tooling, or using a different chemical solution which may call for a separate bath to prevent contamination.

Of course the retail price is going to be higher. We refuse to stick to one finish and we also refuse to accept just one model. The Army is.

One aspect that I've noticed in all this modularity is grip length and using different mags from full size thru compact - has there yet been any discussion of grip diameter or sizes being available?

 

[bernie]

Honestly, I strongly dislike polymer pistols, but that is a different discussion. I will not be lining up for this Sig. I do love hearing how small women cannot shoot the M9. My wife is 5'2" and petite. Guess what her bedside gun is. It rhymes with Pancetta mighty blue. She shoots it great.

 

[wally]

I do love hearing how small women cannot shoot the M9. My wife is 5'2" and petite. Guess what her bedside gun is. It rhymes with Pancetta mighty blue. She shoots it great.

Some folks can improvise, adapt, overcome. Others just throw up their hands and say it won't work.

 

[toivo]

One aspect that I've noticed in all this modularity is grip length and using different mags from full size thru compact - has there yet been any discussion of grip diameter or sizes being available?

The P320 is already available -- theoretically -- in three grip diameters: Small, Medium, and Large. I say "theoretically" because some of what's in the catalog doesn't seem to exist in real life. For example, a standard Subcompact with a grip diameter other than Small is hard to find: only the railed version is available in other sizes. Similarly, the Full size with a Small grip seems to be a rare beast. But the Compact seems to come in all the flavors.

I would assume this is going to be -- or should be -- part of the Army contract. They should be able to calculate the rough percentages of which types of grips sizes they need.

 

[pblanc]

[QUOTE="toivo, post: 10472497

I would assume this is going to be -- or should be -- part of the Army contract. They should be able to calculate the rough percentages of which types of grips sizes they need.[/QUOTE]

That would be my guess. When the Army submits an order for any particular model of the P320, they would specify that 60-70% be delivered with the medium circumference grip module, 15-20% large, and 15-20% small. They would then need only a relatively small number of spare grip modules on hand to swap out to accommodate all soldiers' hand sizes.

If the picture that has been released is accurate, the Army is looking at two different sizes of uppers with the same model grip module. They show a "carry" model with compact slide and barrel on a full-length grip module, and a full size slide/barrel on the same grip module. If this turns out to be the case, magazines for the two models would be the same, and they would need only three different variations of the same grip module: small, medium, and large.

I don't understand those who feel it is beyond the capability of the Army's Table of Organization and Equipment to fit individual soldiers' with whichever of the three sizes best fits them. Swapping the FCU from one grip module to another is a simple job that any unit armorer can accomplish in a minute or less. Does the Army make everyone wear the same size pants?

 

[toivo]

If the picture that has been released is accurate, the Army is looking at two different sizes of uppers with the same model grip module. They show a "carry" model with compact slide and barrel on a full-length grip module, and a full size slide/barrel on the same grip module. If this turns out to be the case, magazines for the two models would be the same, and they would need only three different variations of the same grip module: small, medium, and large.

Exactly: one style of grip frame in three sizes, two types of slide/barrel kit, one type of magazine. It's the largest-capacity magazine, too, which makes sense. If they wanted to simplify it even more, they could eliminate the full-size slide/barrel option. I don't know why they're including that.

 

[BigMacMI]

I'd like to pick up a decomissioned Beretta

 

[mshootnit]

Years ago I compared federal fleet prices on sedans. You could spec a Ford 500. Federal price was around 11,500 for a car that was at least 19,000 on the lot.

 

[JohnKSa]

One aspect that I've noticed in all this modularity is grip length and using different mags from full size thru compact - has there yet been any discussion of grip diameter or sizes being available?

There are 3 grip frame sizes available for every length barrel/slide combo.

Guess what her bedside gun is. It rhymes with Pancetta mighty blue. She shoots it great.

I let a female shooter fire my Beretta 92 and was surprised when she complained about the severe recoil. I tried to downplay it until she showed me that the recoil had broken a blood vessel in her thumb--leaving a large, painful, black/blue mark under the skin. After looking at her hands while she gripped the gun, I realized that she was having to "cheat" her shooting hand around on the gun to reach the trigger and the result was that the gun was recoiling into the base knuckle of her thumb instead of into the web of her hand. With a correct grip she couldn't reach the trigger.

Not every gun works for every person. Fortunately we have lots of options.

 

[pblanc]

There are 3 grip frame sizes available for every length barrel/slide combo.I let a female shooter fire my Beretta 92 and was surprised when she complained about the severe recoil. I tried to downplay it until she showed me that the recoil had broken a blood vessel in her thumb--leaving a large. and painful, black/blue mark under the skin. After looking at her hands while she gripped the gun, I realized that she was having to "cheat" her shooting hand around on the gun to reach the trigger and the result was that the gun was recoiling into the base knuckle of her thumb instead of into the web of her hand. With a correct grip she couldn't reach the trigger.

Not every gun works for every person. Fortunately we have lots of options.

Unfortunately, that is pretty common for the Beretta 92. Having to adopt a so-called "h-grip" can direct all of the recoil force onto the thumb base rather than distributing it across the palm. And the stock Beretta 92 is somewhat oversprung with regard to the hammer spring, making the double action trigger pull pretty heavy. Individuals with less hand strength may need to press the double action trigger with the joint of the trigger finger to gain adequate leverage, which makes it harder still to reach the trigger with a proper grip.

 

[cnj]

Interesting.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ent=2017-01-28&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

I would like a couple at that price.

I would bet that there is a pretty lucrative parts supply, service/repair contract tied to the purchase agreement.

 

[rbernie]

If it meets the specs and it's the low bidder that's who gets the contract.

Yup. And just to add some more meat to the discussion, remember that the Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR) stipulates that the .gov cannot pay more for any item than it has/will be sold to anyone else (i.e. the .gov gets 'most favored customer' pricing). What the .gov spends on any given NSN will always be the cheapest amount for which a given NSN can be sold in the commercial marketplace.

 

[Dain Bramage]

I would bet that there is a pretty lucrative parts supply, service/repair contract tied to the purchase agreement.

From the article: "The $580 million dollar figure does not just include those guns, however, but also spares, accessories, and even holsters, all to be procured from SIG Sauer."