I've just been starting to hear about lead-free 'green' ammunition for sporting purposes. Steel shot has been around for a while now, but I understand that there are various types of rifle and pistol lead-free ammunition being developed. I am seeing implications that leaded ammunition is, or will soon be, banned. I apologise if this topic has been previously discussed, but I need to be brought up to speed on what is going on with this recent (to me) development ...
'Green' Ammo???
- Thread starter Autolite
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Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Give the leftist extremists another 25 minutes, and they'll start demanding new "quiet" ammunition, too.
sumpnz
Member
Well, if that is accomplished by repealing at least the suppressor portion of the NFA then I'll have found a point of agreement with them!
Have them legalize silencers !! BTW in europe the EU is going to ban all lead bullets a few years from now ! Green ammo here may include jacketed lead bullets where the jacket covers the lead completely, lead free primers, or bullets made from copper powder which is frangible[ fractures easily], or all copper bullets.. But don't worry about no lead bullets because Barnes makes many and they have been very successful for hunting. Corbon is making ammo with Barnes all copper bullets for defense.I have some to try .The tests have been very successful .I'm very sensitive about not giving the BG lead poisoning or contaminating the environment.
Luckyorwhat
member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2004
- Messages
- 125
I thought that copper was too effective as an armour-piercing material? Isn't it banned?
iiibdsiil
Member
What are my Reminginton made rounds made of then? Then look copper, but now I am confused.
Malone LaVeigh
Member
Another planet heard from.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Malone, say what you will about your political stance, but the basic facts are that about 80% of the screeching anti-gun tirades originate in your camp. Of course, then the Repubs just nod their heads in agreement.
Back on topic, I've shot about 50 rounds of green ammo through my HK P7. As I understand it, the stuff is a compressed metal powder that disintegrates when it hits something solid.
My general impression of the stuff is positive, overall. For indoor target shooting, this stuff may be the way to go. If there's no chance of lead poisoning then maybe indoor ranges that shoot this stuff exclusively won't have to invest in such massively expensive ventilation systems. (Wishful thinking on my part.)
There are two downsides to the stuff though:
1)It's pricier than comparable regular ammo.
2)It has a lighter powder load, which means that if you don't maintain a good grip the pistol will fail to cycle properly.
Back on topic, I've shot about 50 rounds of green ammo through my HK P7. As I understand it, the stuff is a compressed metal powder that disintegrates when it hits something solid.
My general impression of the stuff is positive, overall. For indoor target shooting, this stuff may be the way to go. If there's no chance of lead poisoning then maybe indoor ranges that shoot this stuff exclusively won't have to invest in such massively expensive ventilation systems. (Wishful thinking on my part.)
There are two downsides to the stuff though:
1)It's pricier than comparable regular ammo.
2)It has a lighter powder load, which means that if you don't maintain a good grip the pistol will fail to cycle properly.
thorn726
Member
really doesnt everyone want legal silecncers????
hehehheh.
anyway here's the link for the army.
a lot of this stuff is AP apparently.
http://aec.army.mil/usaec/publicaffairs/update/fall99/fall9901.htm
some of them are wire type bullets.
hehehheh.
anyway here's the link for the army.
a lot of this stuff is AP apparently.
http://aec.army.mil/usaec/publicaffairs/update/fall99/fall9901.htm
some of them are wire type bullets.
BluesBear
member
Green ammo is designed for use in indoor ranges with less than optimum ventilation. Where lead and heavy metals could be inhaled.
Typically all standard ranges should have good enough ventilation to draw fumes away from the firing lines. However in some "Hogan' Alley" and "Funhouse" type training areas this isn't feasible.
Disentegrating bullets are for close quarters training where the danger of riccochets from hard targets is highly likely.
I believe that lead core bullets as we now know them will be around for a long long time yet.
Yes iiibdsiil, your Remington ammo is copper jacketed.
Unless it's Golden Sabre handgun ammo and then it's brass.
Typically all standard ranges should have good enough ventilation to draw fumes away from the firing lines. However in some "Hogan' Alley" and "Funhouse" type training areas this isn't feasible.
Disentegrating bullets are for close quarters training where the danger of riccochets from hard targets is highly likely.
I believe that lead core bullets as we now know them will be around for a long long time yet.
Yes iiibdsiil, your Remington ammo is copper jacketed.
Unless it's Golden Sabre handgun ammo and then it's brass.
Fly320s
Member
Autolite,
Standard lead ammunition will be with us for a long time.
What is happening, slowly and in small areas, is that some indoor and outdoor ranges are requiring people to use "green" ammunition. All that means is that the ammo is less polluting than lead, at least in theory.
Normally, this means that the lead bullet is completely enclosed by copper or brass (TMJ) or is made of material other than lead, such as the sintered copper mentioned earlier.
The frangible (sintered) ammo has the bonus effect of not causing ricochets or splatter that standard copper jacketed lead bullets do. That is a nice feature when a person wants to shoot in a confined area or in close proximity to steel plates.
Shooting ranges that see a large volume of shooting, such as military ranges, are trying to reduce the amount of lead that gets into the ground. They also want to reduce the cost of cleanup, since the EPA is requiring the lead bullets to be reomved from the ground in some cases. Think about how much lead a typical Army shooting range puts into the ground each year. If that lead does create a hazard, which is open to debate, then it needs to be cleaned up. That's where the money really adds up.
I have used PMC's line of no-lead ammo in some training. It works well enough, but Speer's (same company really) traditional lead ammo works better in the same gun.
Did that help?
-Fly
Standard lead ammunition will be with us for a long time.
What is happening, slowly and in small areas, is that some indoor and outdoor ranges are requiring people to use "green" ammunition. All that means is that the ammo is less polluting than lead, at least in theory.
Normally, this means that the lead bullet is completely enclosed by copper or brass (TMJ) or is made of material other than lead, such as the sintered copper mentioned earlier.
The frangible (sintered) ammo has the bonus effect of not causing ricochets or splatter that standard copper jacketed lead bullets do. That is a nice feature when a person wants to shoot in a confined area or in close proximity to steel plates.
Shooting ranges that see a large volume of shooting, such as military ranges, are trying to reduce the amount of lead that gets into the ground. They also want to reduce the cost of cleanup, since the EPA is requiring the lead bullets to be reomved from the ground in some cases. Think about how much lead a typical Army shooting range puts into the ground each year. If that lead does create a hazard, which is open to debate, then it needs to be cleaned up. That's where the money really adds up.
I have used PMC's line of no-lead ammo in some training. It works well enough, but Speer's (same company really) traditional lead ammo works better in the same gun.
Did that help?
-Fly
BluesBear
member
PMC and Speer are NOT the same company.
Speer is a wholy owned subsidary of ATK (Alliant Techsystems) who also owns CCI, Federal, Estate Cartridge, Alliant Powder, RCBS, Outers, Weaver, Ram-Line, Gunslick and several others that I can't remember right now.
PMC (Precision Metallic Cartridge) is owned by Pan Metal Corporation who owns Starfire/El Dorado cartridge.
Speer is a wholy owned subsidary of ATK (Alliant Techsystems) who also owns CCI, Federal, Estate Cartridge, Alliant Powder, RCBS, Outers, Weaver, Ram-Line, Gunslick and several others that I can't remember right now.
PMC (Precision Metallic Cartridge) is owned by Pan Metal Corporation who owns Starfire/El Dorado cartridge.
As an industrial hygienist that has taken air samples for lead on indoor firing ranges and seen the lead blood lead levels for employees on those same ranges I can tell you without political-based prejudice that lead in bullets and lead-containing primers represent an exposure problem for those employees and for active shooters on those ranges.
Lead enters the body through inhalation and by mouth. Aggresive ventelation can help prevet the inhalation hazard and good hygience practices can prevent the ingestion of lead.
Lead enters the body through inhalation and by mouth. Aggresive ventelation can help prevet the inhalation hazard and good hygience practices can prevent the ingestion of lead.
seeker_two
Member
As long as there's fire, moulds, & a pot to melt in, there will always be lead bullets.
But I'm all for the "green" bullets for indoor ranges.
However, I'm still hesitant about the "green" primers. Have they worked out the reliability problems yet?
But I'm all for the "green" bullets for indoor ranges.
However, I'm still hesitant about the "green" primers. Have they worked out the reliability problems yet?
BluesBear
member
I have always been amazed by the number of people who do not wash their hands after shooting or reloading. you especially need to wash after cleaning your firearms. The solvents that break down lead and powder fouling also make it very easy to be absorbed by contact or inhalation.
If you can smell it, it's in your nose.
If it's in your nose, it's in your lungs.
If it's in your lungs, it's in your blood.
If it's in your blood it's in YOU.
Every time I go to the range I watch people shoot several hundred rounds and then just walk out.
But the worst are those who get a packet of chips or a candy bar out of the vending machine and start munching away with gray fingertips!
And people wonder why I dislike shaking hands with strangers.
If you can smell it, it's in your nose.
If it's in your nose, it's in your lungs.
If it's in your lungs, it's in your blood.
If it's in your blood it's in YOU.
Every time I go to the range I watch people shoot several hundred rounds and then just walk out.
But the worst are those who get a packet of chips or a candy bar out of the vending machine and start munching away with gray fingertips!
And people wonder why I dislike shaking hands with strangers.
I used some kind of frangible ammo in my Gunsite Advanced Carbine class. I think it was PMC, but I am not sure. I know it was expensive.
It didn't shoot to the same POI as regular ball ammo, I presume because the bullet is so light, but it was close enough for what we were doing with it: indoor simulators. It ran fine through my AR15, but the instructors said that they have had some issues with it: it wouldn't run reliably in some peoples' guns.
As long as we are able to choose to use this ammo, I don't see the downside to it. If it presents less of a health risk, if it presents less of a safety hazzard, if it causes less damage to the targets and the surroundings, why not use it ? But again, this assumes that we still have the legal right to buy and use standard ammo if we choose.
I believe one company is making frangible ammo out of compressed corn. What could be more environmentally friendly than to make bullets out of a renewable resource ?
It didn't shoot to the same POI as regular ball ammo, I presume because the bullet is so light, but it was close enough for what we were doing with it: indoor simulators. It ran fine through my AR15, but the instructors said that they have had some issues with it: it wouldn't run reliably in some peoples' guns.
As long as we are able to choose to use this ammo, I don't see the downside to it. If it presents less of a health risk, if it presents less of a safety hazzard, if it causes less damage to the targets and the surroundings, why not use it ? But again, this assumes that we still have the legal right to buy and use standard ammo if we choose.
I believe one company is making frangible ammo out of compressed corn. What could be more environmentally friendly than to make bullets out of a renewable resource ?
Every time I hear 'green' I see red. 
My answer is that I'm working up a .50 cal 900 gr load made out of depleted uranium for a 3 shot hideout pistol. Only test fired it once so far but I'll fine tune it and try again as soon as I get my arm out of this sling.
My answer is that I'm working up a .50 cal 900 gr load made out of depleted uranium for a 3 shot hideout pistol. Only test fired it once so far but I'll fine tune it and try again as soon as I get my arm out of this sling.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Does this mean I should wear rubber gloves when cleaning guns?
TallPine
Member
Why don't they just bake bullets out of recycled plastic grocery bags ?
I don't get this "lead contamination of the ground" thing ...
In the past, didn't they call that a "lead mine" ?
If it was worth digging out of the ground once, it's worth digging out again.
I don't get this "lead contamination of the ground" thing ...
In the past, didn't they call that a "lead mine" ?
If it was worth digging out of the ground once, it's worth digging out again.
Fly320s
Member
PMC is not owned by SpeerWhoops. You're right. I was thinking of CCI, but wrote PMC.
Thanks for the correction.
Why not? Disposable latex-free exam gloves are seriously cheap at the drug store. I worked in an auto shop that required us to wear them when we worked with any type of fluid. It kept your hands cleaner, and reduced the exposure to whatever chemicals you worked with. Might as well wear them while shooting, too, if you feel comfortable doing it. They do change up the friction coefficients quite a bit, so you might not feel so good doing it, but if it works for you, it's probably not a bad idea.
AZ Jeff
Member
I wrote this back in October of last year related to lead levels and lead exposure:
Lead levels in the human body, when measured via blood test are expressed as "micrograms per deciliter". That said, here are some factors to consider:
(BTW, all of the below comes from stuff I have read by the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, aka "ASLET". These guys are more likely to be exposed to lead in an indoor environment than are more other shooters, so they have done LOTS of research on the topic.)
Most of the issue with lead ingestion comes from shooting on INDOOR RANGES. The ones outdoors have enough ventilation and natural "cleaning" factors to reduce the lead ingestion levels pretty easily.
Lead ingestion by shooters comes from 4 major sources, not necessarily listed in order of significance:
1. molten airborne lead particles generated during firing, melting off the back of lead bullets, and inhaled
2. particulate lead absorbed when touching/handling lead bullets
3. lead primer byproducts inhaled as a result of shooting
4. molten lead particles inhaled during casting lead bullets
Most of us don't cast our own bullets, so we can ignore #4 above as a source of lead ingestion. However...source #3 above is by FAR the BIGGEST CONTRIBUTOR to lead ingestion by shooters. (It's something like 10 times greater than the next highest source!!)
The reason here is that, most "non-corrosive" primers contain lead styphnate or something similar. When lead primers ignite, the chemical reaction creates a lead salt that is airborne, and worse yet, it hydroscopic, like all salts. It picks up moisture easily.
Guess what's in your throat and lungs? Lots of moisture, waiting for the lead salt to combine with it. Instant absorbtion.
The solution---RIGOROUS cleanliness on the range, and care when shooting indoors:
1. Don't smoke, eat, or drink on the range. You are ingesting just that much more lead in doing so.
2. Don't shoot on an indoor range that does not ventilate by pulling combustion products AWAY from the shooting line. If you MUST shoot on a range with poor ventilation (Lord knows why), use an OSHA approved mask.
3. DON'T SWEEP with a broom on an indoor range. The floor is COVERED in lead salts, and brooming puts them back in the air.
4. Once you are done shooting on an indoor range, wash your hands immediately. If you can take a shower and change clothes ASAP, all the better.
5. Lastly, DON'T go to bed after shooting indoors until you take a shower and wash your hair. You hair traps lots of lead particles that will transfer to your pillow, and then to your mouth/nose while sleeping.
People I know who have followed the above rules can sucessfully shoot indoors A LOT (like IPSC practice multiple times per week) without having excessive lead levels.
Green ammo primarily concentrates on minimizing lead content in the primers, and secondarily minimizing vaporized lead due to backsplash and propellant gas melting.
All of this, of course, is MUCH more of an issue for shooters to inhabit INDOOR ranges than those of us who shoot out of doors.
And biting lead sinkers is NOT a significant health hazard.
Lead levels in the human body, when measured via blood test are expressed as "micrograms per deciliter". That said, here are some factors to consider:
(BTW, all of the below comes from stuff I have read by the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, aka "ASLET". These guys are more likely to be exposed to lead in an indoor environment than are more other shooters, so they have done LOTS of research on the topic.)
Most of the issue with lead ingestion comes from shooting on INDOOR RANGES. The ones outdoors have enough ventilation and natural "cleaning" factors to reduce the lead ingestion levels pretty easily.
Lead ingestion by shooters comes from 4 major sources, not necessarily listed in order of significance:
1. molten airborne lead particles generated during firing, melting off the back of lead bullets, and inhaled
2. particulate lead absorbed when touching/handling lead bullets
3. lead primer byproducts inhaled as a result of shooting
4. molten lead particles inhaled during casting lead bullets
Most of us don't cast our own bullets, so we can ignore #4 above as a source of lead ingestion. However...source #3 above is by FAR the BIGGEST CONTRIBUTOR to lead ingestion by shooters. (It's something like 10 times greater than the next highest source!!)
The reason here is that, most "non-corrosive" primers contain lead styphnate or something similar. When lead primers ignite, the chemical reaction creates a lead salt that is airborne, and worse yet, it hydroscopic, like all salts. It picks up moisture easily.
Guess what's in your throat and lungs? Lots of moisture, waiting for the lead salt to combine with it. Instant absorbtion.
The solution---RIGOROUS cleanliness on the range, and care when shooting indoors:
1. Don't smoke, eat, or drink on the range. You are ingesting just that much more lead in doing so.
2. Don't shoot on an indoor range that does not ventilate by pulling combustion products AWAY from the shooting line. If you MUST shoot on a range with poor ventilation (Lord knows why), use an OSHA approved mask.
3. DON'T SWEEP with a broom on an indoor range. The floor is COVERED in lead salts, and brooming puts them back in the air.
4. Once you are done shooting on an indoor range, wash your hands immediately. If you can take a shower and change clothes ASAP, all the better.
5. Lastly, DON'T go to bed after shooting indoors until you take a shower and wash your hair. You hair traps lots of lead particles that will transfer to your pillow, and then to your mouth/nose while sleeping.
People I know who have followed the above rules can sucessfully shoot indoors A LOT (like IPSC practice multiple times per week) without having excessive lead levels.
Green ammo primarily concentrates on minimizing lead content in the primers, and secondarily minimizing vaporized lead due to backsplash and propellant gas melting.
All of this, of course, is MUCH more of an issue for shooters to inhabit INDOOR ranges than those of us who shoot out of doors.
And biting lead sinkers is NOT a significant health hazard.
brian roberts
Member
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
- Messages
- 153
"green ammo"....
when slik willy wasn't getting BJs in the oval office, his next funnest thing to do was count money from the chinese, that's where most of the tungsten in the world comes from.....an' GUESS WHO "happens" to have a "green" ammo factory in Kalifornica???? makin' "green" bullets???? yup, you win the cigar(and a FRESH one, not the one Monica had) the army is supposed to be looking at "green ammo" in the near future AND all the tree-huggers are supposed to be gearing-up for a fight to make this stuff army accepted in the not-too-distant-future. then, that done, they'll be starting on us, & of course, we're to be painted as not giving AF about all th' little kiddies breathin' our fumes!!!
for a look at the real-deal about how to get rid of this in your body, on GOOGLE: type in: dr. cranton, go to the site "mt. rainier & mt. rogers clinics" scroll down to FAQ, click on any one, then print-about 16 pgs. your hmo will probably pay for the med. exam; med work-up; & blood work, but won't pay for the treatment, which, depending on your geographic locale would be $85-125 each, typically 20-40 treatments,($2,000.00-5,000.00) then, depending on behavior-modification(diet, exercise, etc.) you may only have to go back 2-6 times per year as a maintenance requirement. this is an IV drip of a synthetic amino acid, and is VERY effective for many things that are ancillary to the consideration we're discussing.
after that, go back to GOOGLE & type in: ACAM(american college for the advancement of medicine) when you get to their site, click on:for public, then dr. search, then your state, it will spit out ALL the therapists in your state. also, Cranton has a book available, "BYPASSING BYPASS" very informative. there are two countries (Finland & New Zealand)that will NOT allow a bypass or a heart transplant w/out a regimen of Chelation(key-LAY-shun) first. believe me, folks, there are people who'll laugh & jeer, but, i've SEEN this WORK, its no BS!!! hope i can help just one of you.
when slik willy wasn't getting BJs in the oval office, his next funnest thing to do was count money from the chinese, that's where most of the tungsten in the world comes from.....an' GUESS WHO "happens" to have a "green" ammo factory in Kalifornica???? makin' "green" bullets???? yup, you win the cigar(and a FRESH one, not the one Monica had) the army is supposed to be looking at "green ammo" in the near future AND all the tree-huggers are supposed to be gearing-up for a fight to make this stuff army accepted in the not-too-distant-future. then, that done, they'll be starting on us, & of course, we're to be painted as not giving AF about all th' little kiddies breathin' our fumes!!!
for a look at the real-deal about how to get rid of this in your body, on GOOGLE: type in: dr. cranton, go to the site "mt. rainier & mt. rogers clinics" scroll down to FAQ, click on any one, then print-about 16 pgs. your hmo will probably pay for the med. exam; med work-up; & blood work, but won't pay for the treatment, which, depending on your geographic locale would be $85-125 each, typically 20-40 treatments,($2,000.00-5,000.00) then, depending on behavior-modification(diet, exercise, etc.) you may only have to go back 2-6 times per year as a maintenance requirement. this is an IV drip of a synthetic amino acid, and is VERY effective for many things that are ancillary to the consideration we're discussing.
after that, go back to GOOGLE & type in: ACAM(american college for the advancement of medicine) when you get to their site, click on:for public, then dr. search, then your state, it will spit out ALL the therapists in your state. also, Cranton has a book available, "BYPASSING BYPASS" very informative. there are two countries (Finland & New Zealand)that will NOT allow a bypass or a heart transplant w/out a regimen of Chelation(key-LAY-shun) first. believe me, folks, there are people who'll laugh & jeer, but, i've SEEN this WORK, its no BS!!! hope i can help just one of you.
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