'Green' Ammo???

[MaterDei]

Green ammo.

My Monarch brand 7.62X39 ammo has a greenish hue to it. Does that count???

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Chelation to combat hardening of the arteries as brian roberts describes is widely regarded as quackery.

It is, however, considered to be the best treatment for lead poisoning.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

John Farnam has posted several times about green ammo:

Try this search in Google:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.defense-training.com+frangible

Here are a few of his posts...

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2004/15Sept04.html

15Sept04

From a friend in OH on frangible ammunition:

"Just completed class at OPOTA last week. None of our pistols liked the frangible ammunition that is now required at this facility. All went down with consistent failure to fee and failure to go into battery. I personally cleaned several. Didn't solve the problem. Then I took them all to the outdoor range and changed to real ammunition. Problems instantly disappeared."

Lesson: "Frangible," "green," and "clean" ammunition is crap! It is ineffective for anything but practice, and problems like the forgoing are so common, training is always degraded. Not recommended.

/John

and two days later:
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2004/17Sept04.html

17Sept04

Comments on frangible have been on both sides of the issue. Some think it is fine. However, this one is typical:

"Since my agency made the switch to lead-free/frangible, we have had nothing but trouble. We buy and consume one million rounds a year. We tested all brands. All demonstrated themselves to be unsatisfactory. Issues range from hard primers, to bullets disintegrating in magazines, to abbreviated shelf life, to cycling problems. Our selection was finally based, not on the best performance, but of the least of the poor performances! In any event, it is good for practice only. If is not suitable for any serious application, so we have to be careful not to get it mixed in with the good stuff.

A final note. We've been informed that bismuth is as undesirable as lead. No disposal facility will take it.

Looks as if the tree huggers are really keeping us 'safe,' eh?"

/John

and back in 2000:
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2000/19Sept00.html

11 Sept 00

>From a friend with a large PD on "frangible," practice ammunition:

"We use lead-free, frangible pistol ammunition exclusively in our indoor and outdoor ranges, but that practice may have to change, as we are having all kinds of problems:

The composition bullet sometimes breaks when the round feeds, usually fracturing level with the crimp. In some instances we find the broken tip of the bullet when the shooter performs the stoppage drill. In some instances it comes out of the barrel when the shooter fires the succeeding round. This has not damaged a gun or injured a shooter so far, but we are concerned about the phenomenon.

We also found that some casings are poorly crimped. Upon feeding, bullet setback is common. Again, we are concerned about blown-up pistols, though this has not occurred yet.

Primer failure is also common. I believe this plagues all no-lead primers.

The failure rate as described above was significant enough to make us cancel the contract. We're now looking of another vendor, but, based on my experience, I don't think frangible, no-lead practice ammunition from any source is ever going to be satisfactory."

/John

 

[BluesBear]

Let's not make this about politics when it's really about safety.

Pan Metal Corporation (PMC) has their American headquarters in Lost Angels, PRK but no factory there. Most of their PMC brand ammo is made in South Korea.
PMC also puts their PMC brand name on some ammo produced in South Africa.

Their subsidiary, Eldorado Cartridge Corporation has a factory near Boulder City, Nevada, where they produce Starfire ammo.

The PMC Green ammunition and primers I tested early last year was produced in South Korea.

 

[hso]

In spite of repeating myself -

I have taken air samples in indoor firing ranges for lead.

I have scheduled employees in those ranges for lead blood tests.

I have seen the results of the indoor air samples and the blood tests.

The higher the airborne lead concentrations the higher the blood lead levels.

Not someone told me, not read it somewhere, not heard it from my second cousins dog, but sampled the air, saw the results, and saw the elevated blood lead levels. :banghead:

 

[PowderBurn]

I overheard a conversation at a gun store the other day. One guy asked another guy why he hadn't seen him in so long. That guy says that his doctor noticed extremely high lead levels in a recent blood test and told him he had to stay away from the range for a year . He shot at a range that I've been to a number of times, but I won't go there any more!

 

[hso]

If you are concerned about airborne lead at the indoor range you prefer to shoot at ask a few questions.

Do they reuse any of the air in the range or do they exhaust all of it and heat/cool fresh air? If they reuse the air is it filtered using HEPA filters?

Is the outside air brought into the system on the same side of the building as the exhaust? If not is the air intake and exhaust on the sides paralelling the normal wind direction? (don't stake your horses upstream of where you drink )

Do they monitor for lead in the air and would they share that information with you?

Have they ever been cited by OSHA for airborne lead in the range? If so, did they correct the problem?

Would they like OSHA to pay a visit? State OSHA organisations run "consulting" services and will visit and make recommendations to the owner about such issues as lead. The consulting branch is forbidden from contacting the enforcement branch.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Late to the party...

...but oh well, I was on business travel much of the month.

I belong to a club where access to the outdoor ranges becomes impractical during parts of the year depending on the weather.

Our 50ft indoor range is about 50 years old and the backstop won't handle full power jacketed loads. The restriction (ironically) is either lead < 1000fps, or frangible.

Because of those restrictions, our more serious shooters (especially the defensive pistol program competitors) have spent a fair amount of time testing alternatives.

To stay compliant with the club rules, most of the serious guys reload and use frangible bullets (a.k.a. green ammo') during the indoor season.

I've been shooting this all winter in my CZ-75's http://www.ammoman.com/images/9MMFGBL-3.jpg (Speer Lawman 9mm 90gr Frangible).

The bullet used is Sinterfire http://www.sinterfire.com/ .

The reloaders are mostly using Sinterfire as their projectile. While this is anecdotal to be sure, I've seen it reliably cycle in most Glock's, 1911's, and Sig's (which represent the majority of brands used). I've not had one hiccup in my CZ-75's (pushing 800 rounds or so). Similarly with my 1911's (about 200 rounds frangible .45ACP downrange so far). Just for giggles, our MD brought his AR' with .45 upper...no problems there...similarly with a Beretta CX-Storm. The round gun guys are mostly running 38SP Sinterfire with pleasing results when scoring targets. I cannot recall a single incident where somebody had a "bad ammo day" with frangible.

It's not to say that there isn't some "bad stuff" out there or some "bad marriages" of platform and frangible ammo', but with the right load...they're very accurate, reliable, and serve a useful purpose.

Stay safe,

CZ52'

 

[MR73]

Please visit www.sellier-bellot.cz and find out what they have to say about their green bullet.

In fact, professional instructors who spend hours at indoor shooting ranges appreciate this cartridge (only 9mm and 38 special) as they intake less toxic gases. They have replaced 4 chemical components with neutral ones.

In addition to "cleaner air", you get a much cleaner combustion meaning less corrosive attack on your gun parts. Not bad!

 

[cracked butt]

I have zero interest in shooting in an indoor range again until green ammo is becomes more available, cheaper and possibly mandated by individual range operators, unless I'm in the range shooting by myself.
The last time I shot indoors, I could taste the lead in the air, that was enough for me.

 

[Zach S]

Does this mean I should wear rubber gloves when cleaning guns?

Not a bad idea. I wear the purple nitrile gloves a lot around the house when I'm cleaning the bathroom, working with solvents, pastes, epoxy, primer, paint, or I'm into so much oil that my Mechanix gloves do little to no good (I hate changing axle shafts).

I've only used the .223 frangible from PMC. I've never had a problem with it functioning in my AR. The range I frequent is pistol calibers only, but the PMC green .223 is okay to shoot. The price sucks though.

 

[alex-v.]

The lead issue is not the "end of the world" situation that some people want us to believe.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041104005801.htm

Using the software for this board is not easy at all.