Green Tipped 5.56 NATO Vs. 5.56 55gr

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I think that's what we're talking about here-what it is that would cause the green tip SS109 to yaw terminally when fired from one gun and not another.

A bullet that wobbles in flight simply yaws earlier in it's penetration path when it hits flesh than a non-wobbling bullet that impacts straight on at 90-degrees.

Impact angle is what determines if the bullet yaws...
No.

At pointed bullets yaw in flesh because the bullets' center of gravity is located nearer the base than tip. The gyroscopic stabilization is insufficent to stabilize the bullet in flesh, which is hundreds of times more dense than air. When the bullet penetrates flesh it seeks to achieve a state of stabilization by yawing 180-degrees to travel base forward.
 
I think 5.7x28mm is a much better PDW cartridge. More in tune with a short barrel and fairly effective against armor. At least it used to be.
If I had thousands of SS190s laying around, I would agree with you 100%. But I don't, because that wouldn't be legal. I don't know what the deal is with the m855 and that little Bushmaster pistol. I haven't shot it in a very long time. I think I'll take it to the indoor range next week and see what it does at 43 feet and see if I can figure something out. I just know I have a whole bunch of these bullets and I want to play with them. I have been itching to load up some 5.56 since I built my new rifle. Looks like I have another reason to now.
The one made out of UHMWPE. It's rated for 7.62x39mm at 100, but the test guys tried out 7.62 Nato ball and it didn't penetrate. I am real impressed with UHMWPE.
I'd like to have a vest of it because, why wouldn't I, but I'm not interested in trying to defeat it. Trying to defeat modern armor is foolish unless you're equipped with ammunition designed specifically to do just that.
 
A bullet that wobbles in flight simply yaws earlier in it's penetration path when it hits flesh than a non-wobbling bullet that impacts straight on at 90-degrees.


No.

At pointed bullets yaw in flesh because the bullets' center of gravity is located nearer the base than tip. The gyroscopic stabilization is insufficent to stabilize the bullet in flesh, which is hundreds of times more dense than air. When the bullet penetrates flesh it seeks to achieve a state of stabilization by yawing 180-degrees to travel base forward.

This pic is from back on page 4 of this thread and it shows the SS109 specifically yawing in ballistic Gelatin because of the angle of impact.
Here is the Army study conclusion:
"What resulted from their investigation was a landmark discovery in terminal effectiveness science: Bullets – all bullets, not just .22 caliber ones – experience a period of very violent yaw and turbulence when they exit the muzzle, causing their angle of attack relative to their flight path – that is how “straight” the bullet is in flight – to vary wildly. Within 50m, they found, two bullets fired from the same gun, at essentially the same time, might impact a target at two completely different angles. A bullet impacting head on into gelatin would stay stable for much longer than one impacting at a high angle, and would deposit its energy much later. This explained the problems some users – but not others – were having with their weapons. In some instances, the FMJ projectiles would hit the target at a desirable high angle of attack, tumble and fragment within a short distance, and reliably stop the target, while in others, the same type of projectile would hit at a flat angle, and might not yaw for many inches."
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A bullet that is already tumbling in flight when it hits flesh will continue to tumble as it passes through the target and will certainly yaw wildly in the target. That's my point here.
 
An AR "pistol" fitted with an arm brace allows one to circumvent the ATF to have a lawful short barreled rifle. A CCW license allows it to be carried loaded inside a vehicle in many states, plus it can be carried interstate without the need for ATF's permission.

Well, if that's an advantage where you are, that's great. Not as good as an actual shoulder stock carbine and ballistically inefficient though. Most western states, except for the west coasters, don't play the car games anyway. Concealed loaded in car without a permit is perfectly okay here. If I think I need to, I throw a handgun into the truck. If I really think I need to, I throw a rifle in. Or a shotgun.

As the old sheriff told the lady who quizzed him his pistol and if he expected trouble. He replied, "No ma'am, I don't expect trouble. If I did, I would be carrying a rifle."
 
If I had thousands of SS190s laying around, I would agree with you 100%. But I don't, because that wouldn't be legal. I don't know what the deal is with the m855 and that little Bushmaster pistol. I haven't shot it in a very long time. I think I'll take it to the indoor range next week and see what it does at 43 feet and see if I can figure something out. I just know I have a whole bunch of these bullets and I want to play with them. I have been itching to load up some 5.56 since I built my new rifle. Looks like I have another reason to now.

I'd like to have a vest of it because, why wouldn't I, but I'm not interested in trying to defeat it. Trying to defeat modern armor is foolish unless you're equipped with ammunition designed specifically to do just that.

Well UHMWPE is rigid so it's good for plates in your vest. The military has the same idea about trying to defeat it and other armor on the horizon and are in the process of adopting something upscale from the 5.56. I was just reading about one candidate which is a polymer cased 6.8mm.
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Well UHMWPE is rigid so it's good for plates in your vest. The military has the same idea about trying to defeat it and other armor on the horizon and are in the process of adopting something upscale from the 5.56. I was just reading about one candidate which is a polymer cased 6.8mm.
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Looks like the end of mil-surp brass to me but it seems like it would be useful to a soldier for sure with its 50% more range and 30% weight reduction and compatibility with existing systems by swapping barrels. Seems like a good investment.
 
"Fleet yaw" refers to the gun, not the bullet. Each rifle/carbine (gun) is an individual, and each gun stabilizes bullets differently. Some guns stabilize bullets very well, other don't. Which is why different soldiers reported different effects. Some soldiers had good results when shooting bad guys with M855, other soldiers didn't - even with ammo from the same lot. All were telling the truth. It was their guns that made the difference - hence "Fleet Yaw" refers to stabilization inconsistencies among the "fleet" of guns.



The Army didn't "develop" M855A1. It literally stole the basic bullet design from Liberty Ammunition. Liberty sued and the Army was ordered to pay Liberty a royalty fee for each bullet it produced. The Army appealed and won. See - BREAKING NEWS: Liberty Ammunition LOSES M855A1 EPR Appeals Lawsuit in Federal Claims Court, US Army CLEARED -The Firearm Blog

Also - U.S. loses patent suit, owes ammo maker $15M (armytimes.com)
Let's put these news stories in proper order:

U.S. loses patent suit, owes ammo maker $15M (armytimes.com) January 2015

BREAKING NEWS: Liberty Ammunition LOSES M855A1 EPR Appeals Lawsuit in Federal Claims Court, US Army CLEARED -The Firearm Blog August 2016

According to the court, the Army did not steal the idea and does not have to pay anybody anything.

And, if you look at the patent in question it really does not look anything like the construction of an M855A1 projectile.
 
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Looks like the end of mil-surp brass to me but it seems like it would be useful to a soldier for sure with its 50% more range and 30% weight reduction and compatibility with existing systems by swapping barrels. Seems like a good investment.

Change is inevitable, but I wouldn't worry about milsurp brass running out for a long time. Afterall, there are many countries that will still be using 5.56 and 7.62 for decades to come. Even after some future generation starts to carry plasma rifles, manufacturers will be catering to the antique (AR15) weapon market.

"Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range."
 
If the arm brace becomes an issue in the future then just remove it and use the receiver extension for a cheek weld. No need to shoulder it to get good hits near and far.

Heck, carry a wrench and a shoulder stock in your emergency SHTF kit. Just in case.
 
I think that's what we're talking about here-what it is that would cause the green tip SS109 to yaw terminally when fired from one gun and not another. Impact angle is what determines if the bullet yaws and impact angle will be related to yaw and precession, a bullet that is overstabilized would, in theory, have a more rigid gyroscopic axis as it travelled to the target and would be less likely to hit the target at an angle that would promote yaw. My example of the SS109s keyholing from the 7 1/2" Bushmaster pistol would be an extreme example of the opposite-a bullet travelling on a less rigid gyroscopic axis which is struggling to not start tumbling over that axis and , ultimately as spin/stability decreases, it loses the struggle at some distance and begins tumbling which shows up as keyholes in the target. I have to think that such a bullet would be far more lethal than that same bullet if it hit dead on at the reduced velocity. It's a complex thing to try to figure out mathematically and might be better understood through observational analysis such as I have described as opposed to trying to overthink it. We have m855. We have a 7 1/2" 1:10" twist barrel. The ammo keyholes. This was well over a decade ago so I don't recall the distance or the percentage of keyholes. It seems like it was most of them. It seems like it was between 25 and 100 meters. It was no more than 100 meters, I know that and was probably 50-75 meters. The bullets were all on the target at this range but pretty widely dispersed but it's not like it's a target pistol.

All this talk makes me want to shoot some more of that M855 into some ballistic gel and see what a keyholing SS109 does. I'm thinking it would be impressive, more impressive than the same bullet fired and well stabilized at the same diminished velocity but with a tighter twist.
Bullets precess in flight, that is, the yaw angle is not constant but varies as a function of time.

In stable bullets the average yaw angle tends to decrease, but there is some precession. This is the reason for the varying terminal performance of M855, two hits on the same target, from the same gun will probably strike at different points of the bullets precession and show very different results.
 
This pic is from back on page 4 of this thread and it shows the SS109 specifically yawing in ballistic Gelatin because of the angle of impact.
It's simply yawing earlier in the gelatin than a bullet that isn't yawing (wobbling) as much in flight when it impacts.

All pointed bullets yaw in gelatin (and flesh).

A bullet that is already tumbling in flight when it hits flesh will continue to tumble as it passes through the target and will certainly yaw wildly in the target. That's my point here.
The bullets aren't "tumbling", they're wobbling (yawing) just a few degrees in flight. The greater the degree of wobble the earlier the bullet attempts to yaw 180-degrees after impact. If velocity is sufficent both M193 and M855 fracture at the cannelure as the bullet yaws through 90-degrees, when penetration resistance is at its maximum, and the bullet fragments. The cannelure causes a weak spot in the jacket.
 
Change is inevitable, but I wouldn't worry about milsurp brass running out for a long time. Afterall, there are many countries that will still be using 5.56 and 7.62 for decades to come. Even after some future generation starts to carry plasma rifles, manufacturers will be catering to the antique (AR15) weapon market.

"Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range."
I'm more worried about primers right now than brass anyways but still, one of the primary benefits of a 5.56 or 7.62 civilian rifle is the availability of cheap mil-surp brass (and bullets) that the federal government is mandated to sell to us thanks to Senator Jim Inhofe. once that advantage is gone, it will definitely be time to start looking at the 6.5s IMO.
 
The bullets aren't "tumbling", they're wobbling (yawing) just a few degrees in flight. The greater the degree of wobble the earlier the bullet attempts to yaw 180-degrees after impact. If velocity is sufficent both M193 and M855 fracture at the cannelure as the bullet yaws through 90-degrees, when penetration resistance is at its maximum, and the bullet fragments. The cannelure causes a weak spot in the jacket.
We're talking about keyholed targets from a 7 1/2" barreled Bushmaster Carbon 15 with M855 ammo and SS109 projectiles. I appreciate your knowledge and all but we are talking about a very specific thing here that you seem to be unaware of. The bullets were observed to consistently cut keyholes into the target. they are, in fact tumbling in flight. The questions are: Why? When did they start to tumble? and is this beneficial or detrimental from the perspective of terminal performance?
 
Bullets precess in flight, that is, the yaw angle is not constant but varies as a function of time.

In stable bullets the average yaw angle tends to decrease, but there is some precession. This is the reason for the varying terminal performance of M855, two hits on the same target, from the same gun will probably strike at different points of the bullets precession and show very different results.
Precession is a sub-rotation. It is a rotation within a rotation. the earth spins on its axis and this is why we have day and night. It also precesses, like a top which spins but also traces a second rotational pattern and this is why the earth has the precession of the equinoxes (which is why Thuban was the north star 5,000 years ago and Polaris is the north star now). The bullet also precesses like this but for different reasons.
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And, ultimately, if I'm making any argument here (which I'm not really trying to argue about anything), I'm just suggesting that the unstable or marginally stable SS109 is more lethal than the stable SS109.
 
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We're talking about keyholed targets from a 7 1/2" barreled Bushmaster Carbon 15 with M855 ammo and SS109 projectiles. I appreciate your knowledge and all but we are talking about a very specific thing here that you seem to be unaware of.

I agree you've been discussing two topics: 1) M855 yaw in general (e.g. "fleet yaw"), and 2) "keyholing".

I'm not responding to your "keyholing" posts, I'm responding to the misinformation you're posting about M855 yaw in general.
 
I agree you've been discussing two topics: 1) M855 yaw in general (e.g. "fleet yaw"), and 2) "keyholing".

I'm not responding to your "keyholing" posts, I'm responding to the misinformation you're posting about M855 yaw in general.
I'm not going to fight with you. Bye. and you are flat out ignored.
 
According to the court, the Army did not steal the idea and does not have to pay anybody anything.
The appeals court made a ruling based on alleged violation of two specific patent items claimed by Liberty.

Liberty complained that Army representatives violated the terms of the NDAs they signed, which the court ruled invalid as enforceable contracts. This is what allowed the Army to steal the BASIC design of the M855A1 bullet.

Prior to this the Army was developing expensive tungsten-nylon and tungsten-tin core bullets to replace the M855. When Army representatives saw the simple and inexpensive design of the Liberty bullet, they stole the concept.
 
An AR "pistol" fitted with an arm brace allows one to circumvent the ATF to have a lawful short barreled rifle. A CCW license allows it to be carried loaded inside a vehicle in many states, plus it can be carried interstate without the need for ATF's permission.
That it does. For now. And I'm happy to take full allowance of any lawful actions of the sort. The intent of the law and letter of the law are two different things. As long as I am within the confines of the law and am protected legally, I don't really care what others think about it.

I'm pretty sure politicians and other "lawmakers" involved in different aspects of finance don't check with the moral majority before they invest or sell stock, etc... even if it's shady or a loophole, as long as they are following the letter of the law is basically all that matter.... same goes for me as far as I'm concerned
 
I'm more worried about primers right now than brass anyways but still, one of the primary benefits of a 5.56 or 7.62 civilian rifle is the availability of cheap mil-surp brass (and bullets) that the federal government is mandated to sell to us thanks to Senator Jim Inhofe. once that advantage is gone, it will definitely be time to start looking at the 6.5s IMO.

I guess it depends on how old you are. I might have 10 or 15 "let's go shoot" years left if my health holds, but one can never tell. I'm not worried about climate change either. I didn't think I needed to worry about nuclear war anymore, but it might just turn out to be a problem.:uhoh:

At the moment, my only AR is a Valkyrie, so no milsurp for that. I don't own a 308 either although my 6.5 is a 260 Remington, so I could convert 308 if I needed to. I agree with you about primers. They are a game stopper if you run out.
 
I guess it depends on how old you are. I might have 10 or 15 "let's go shoot" years left if my health holds, but one can never tell. I'm not worried about climate change either. I didn't think I needed to worry about nuclear war anymore, but it might just turn out to be a problem.:uhoh:

At the moment, my only AR is a Valkyrie, so no milsurp for that. I don't own a 308 either although my 6.5 is a 260 Remington, so I could convert 308 if I needed to. I agree with you about primers. They are a game stopper if you run out.
I hear you. My war is definitely with father time at this point. By God, I will be getting out to the range this summer and I will blast some of those SS109s into the dirt and father time can F.O..
 
The appeals court made a ruling based on alleged violation of two specific patent items claimed by Liberty.

Liberty complained that Army representatives violated the terms of the NDAs they signed, which the court ruled invalid as enforceable contracts. This is what allowed the Army to steal the BASIC design of the M855A1 bullet.

Prior to this the Army was developing expensive tungsten-nylon and tungsten-tin core bullets to replace the M855. When Army representatives saw the simple and inexpensive design of the Liberty bullet, they stole the concept.
No, that’s not what happened.

1) True, the first idea for a “lead-free” bullet was just to substitute a tungsten-tin mix for the lead in a regular M855 design. This would leave the penetrator inside the jacket.

2) The Government challenges several of the trial court’s claim constructions. Claim construction seeks to ascribe the “ordinary and customary meaning” to claim terms as they would be understood to a person of ordinary skill in the art at the time of invention. The claims themselves provide substantial guidance as to the meaning of particular claim terms, and therefore “the context of the surrounding words of the claim also must be considered in determining the ordinary and customary meaning of those terms. But “the person of ordinary skill in the art is deemed to read the claim term not only in the context of the particular claim in which the disputed term appears, but in the context of the entire patent, including the specification.” Thus, claims “must be read in view of the specification, of which they are a part.” Basically, patent 7,748,325 has three major claims, 1) it breaks up on impact, 2) it has a reduced area of contact with the bore, and 3) there is an interface portion disposed intermediate opposite ends, that holds the front section to the rear section.

The fact that the bullet breaks up was not taken into consideration as many bullet designs break up on impact, to include the original M855, and most all tracers. So, the case boiled down to two points.

A. “Reduced Area of Contact”

Claim 1 recites an “interface portion disposed and dimensioned to define a reduced area of contact of said body with the rifling of the firearm.” ’325 patent col. 7 ll. 65–67 (emphasis added). The trial court construed the claim term “reduced area of contact” to mean “the area of contact between the interface and the rifling of the firearm is less than that of a traditional jacketed lead bullet of calibers .17 through .50 BMG.” Trial Ct. Op., 119 Fed. Cl. at 390–91. The Government argues that the construction should explicitly include the M855 round as a baseline traditional jacketed lead bullet because the M855 is the only prior art projectile explicitly named in the specification. Specifically, the Government urges construing the term as: “the area of contact between the projectile and the rifling of the firearm is less than that of a traditional jacketed projectile, which includes the M855.” The trial court rejected this limitation as too restrictive, relying instead on the specification’s statement that the invention is enabled for “all calibers generally ranging from .17 through [.]50 BMG.” Id. at 391 (alteration in original) (quoting ’325 patent col. 2 ll. 27–28).

We begin our analysis by recognizing that the term “reduced area of contact” is one of degree, as it necessarily calls for a comparison against some baseline. Terms of degree are problematic if their baseline is unclear to those of ordinary skill in the art. . . . As the trial court correctly noted in this case, “[t]here are no clues within Claim 1 itself as to what the area of contact has been reduced from.”

The Background of the Invention section first narrows the ambiguity by disclosing that the patent’s proposed projectile has “a reduced contact area as compared to conventional projectiles.” The question then becomes: What constitutes a conventional projectile? Again, the specification guides. Discussing the industry need for a projectile capable of “assum[ing] various densities while distinguishing the weight of the projectile from its size,” the Background of the Invention identifies the M855 round as a specific conventional projectile that the invention seeks to improve upon. This is the specification’s only mention of a specific conventional projectile, strongly suggesting that the M855 round is the point of comparison for the claims.

The Court therefore construes the term “reduced area of contact” to mean “the area of contact between the interface and the rifling of the firearm is less than that of a conventional jacketed lead projectile, which derives from the corresponding caliber NATO standard-issue round as of October 21, 2005,” which they specifically noted is the M855 round for 5.56 mm projectiles and the M80 round for 7.62 mm projectiles.

During the original trial, 26 different types of bullets for “reduced area of contact”, yet did not include the original M855. The M855A1 actually has a larger contact area than the M855. In fact, the M855A1 was intentionally designed to have increased contact area to reduce the shear loads on the bullet engraving.

B. “Intermediate Opposite Ends”

Claim 32 of the patent recites “a body including a nose portion and tail portion, said body further including an interface portion disposed intermediate opposite ends of said body.” (emphasis added). The trial court construed the claim term “intermediate opposite ends” to mean “that the interface is positioned between or in the middle of the opposite ends of the forward end of the nose portion and the trailing end of the tail portion.” The Government argues that the construction should be further limited, in relevant part, “such that the interface does not extend all of the way to the front or to the end of the projectile.” The trial court rejected this limitation, relying on a decision in Lucent Technologies, Inc. v. Gateway, Inc., 525 F.3d 1200 (Fed. Cir. 2008). Trial Ct. Op., 119 Fed. Cl. at 390. The trial court interpreted Lucent to mean that because “including” precedes the term “intermediate opposite ends,” the claimed interface may cover more than just the middle portion of a round. Id. In other words, the trial court concluded that so long as the interface was positioned, in part, between the forward end and the trailing end of the projectile, it did not matter if the interface was also positioned outside of that prescribed area.

The Appeals Court conclude that the Government’s proposed construction is fully supported by the plain claim language and specification. While the open-ended term “including” does precede “intermediate opposite ends,” prior decisions have warned against using terms such as “comprising,” or “including,” as “weasel words with which to abrogate claim limitations.” Dippin’ Dots, Inc. v. Mosey, 476 F.3d 1337, 1343 (Fed. Cir. 2007) (quoting Spectrum Int’l, Inc. v. Sterilite Corp., 164 F.3d 1372, 1380 (Fed. Cir. 1998)). The trial court’s refusal to limit the projectile’s interface so that it does not extend all of the way to the forward or trailing ends of the projectile goes against this admonition and significantly diminishes the “intermediate opposite ends” limitation, almost to the point of rendering it a nullity.

The very essence of the “intermediate opposite ends” limitation is to define a precise position for the interface: between the nose and tail ends of the projectile. The trial court’s construction chips away at this precision by permitting an interface that is not only between the opposing ends, but also outside that position to read on the claim language. As such, the construction is broad enough to cover a traditional full metal jacket surrounding the entire projectile, a fact which Liberty’s counsel acknowledged and embraced at oral argument. (Oral Argument at 17:32–20:24, available at http://oralarguments.cafc. uscourts.gov/default.aspx?fl=2015-5057.mp3.) This understanding, however, contradicts the ’325 patent specification, which unequivocally distinguishes the claimed invention from projectiles with such a jacketed design. ’325 patent col. 1 ll. 62–63 (“Improved projectile would preferably involve a proposal which eliminates the use of a jacketed projectile.”), col. 2 ll. 39–40 (“[T]he projectile of the present invention eliminates the use of lead and the provision of an outer jacket.”), col. 6 ll. 63–64 (“t is emphasized that the projectile body[] is not jacketed as in conventional copper jacketed projectiles.”), col. 7 ll. 39–44 (“Structural and operative features of the projectile[], including the cooperative components of the nose portion[], tail portion[] and interface[], overcome many of the disadvantages and problems normally associated with conventional firearm projectiles through the provision of a non-jacketed structure and the elimination of lead.”).

On these facts, M855A1 projectiles cannot satisfy the “intermediate opposite ends” limitation. With the “intermediate opposite ends” limitation not met by M855A1 projectiles, The Court concluded that the Government does not practice asserted claim 32, which includes this limitation, or the claims that depend from claim 32.

3) The Army officer did not have the authority to obligate the Government to any agreement. If I sign a NDA to not release information to FN, and you later find FN has information you gave to me, you cannot sue FN, because I do not have the authority to obligate FN to anything. This is an important thing to remember when dealing with Government representatives, unless they have the authority to sign a contract, they really are not in authority to obligate the Government to anything. So, showing them your secret plans isn’t a great idea.

Basically, the M855A1 is an improvement on the design shown in Patent 7,748,325, not a usurpation of it.

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