Is 5.56 Penatrator(green tip) not the same as 5.45 steel core?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Somebody with more knowledge than me will have to answer for sure, but it is my understanding that steel core is not the same as armor piercing. It is my understanding that AP ammo is banned, not steel core.
 
W.E.G. said:
They are free to change "the definition" any time I suppose.

But, for now, green-tip does not meet the definition of AP.

See http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/a...and-why-green-tip-m855-is-not-armor-piercing/

I found your answer in less than 10 seconds with a Google search.
Click to expand...
I'm not being snooty, but I tend to trust the comprehensive opinions of THR more than I do from a google search.
But hey everything on the internet is true so I guess I should more trusting.:evil:
 
Notice too, that a lot of M855 is domestic production, not subject to "importation" laws
 
Somebody with more knowledge than me will have to answer for sure, but it is my understanding that steel core is not the same as armor piercing. It is my understanding that AP ammo is banned, not steel core.
Click to expand...

Don't get too caught up in the question of whether or not it will pierce armor, its all about the construction of the round not the real world ability. The regs as of right now consider any pistol ammo with a steel core to be AP.
 
The largest source of M855 ammunition for us is the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. Often what we see in commercial boxes is from lots that the Army has rejected.

The construction is a lead core, with a small steel penetrator at its tip, all held together by a copper jacket. The small amount of steel present does not meet the criterion for "armor piercing".

The M855 is not designed as an armor piercing round. It is designed to pierce a military helmet.
 
Don't get too caught up in the question of whether or not it will pierce armor, its all about the construction of the round not the real world ability. The regs as of right now consider any pistol ammo with a steel core to be AP.
Click to expand...
As the code is written, the core would have to be entirely steel (or entirely a combo of the listed materials which does not mention lead). 7N6's core is a combination of lead and steel. As codified, it does not meet the definition of AP for either case, and neither does M855.

(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Part of the issue may be that M855 is considered regular FMJ by the military, non-AP, and I believe at close range M855 may be somewhat less penetrative than regular M193 due to the lower velocity. Its penetrative ability at range vs. M193 is due to its higher mass and better ballistic coefficient, which makes it retain velocity better. I assume the steel cap is just to keep the longer, heavier lead core deforming when it hits sheet steel.

The downside of M855 is that it is also less likely to fragment than M193, and its terminal performance at range is not that good compared to Mk 262 and whatnot.
 
7N6 way well have fallen afoul of the second part.

0.220472 > 0.22 and with so little actual lead in the bullet the jacket may exceed 25% total mass.

Side question, the new lead free ammo the army is switching to, that'll get caught in this net won't it? (perhaps not, it the bullet pure copper?
 
M855 aka green tip is considered a light armor penetrator in the military but does not meet the civilian definition of "armor piercing."
 
It's the lead contend in M855 that makes it legally not AP
18USC 921:
17.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
Click to expand...
 
22 caliber does not mean the projectile is 0.220" in diameter. It never has. I can't think of a single 22 caliber cartridge that has a projectile that's 0.220" in diameter.
That doesn't matter because 5.45x39 was not "designed and intended" for use in a handgun. Notice the difference between the first and second part. First part says "may be used in a handgun" while the second part says "designed and intended for use in a handgun". As written, 5.45x39 is not AP.
 
Last edited:
First part says "may be used in a handgun", second part says "designed and intended for use in a handgun". As written, 5.45x39 is not AP.
Click to expand...
The way the law *should* be interpreted, and the way it *is* interpreted, are two different things.

As interpreted by BATFE, .223/5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and .308/7.62x51mm are "pistol calibers" for the purposes of the law. I'm not sure what the rationale behind that is, but that's how they run with it, and now 5.45x39mm is apparently on that list as well.
 
Yes, it would solve a lot of recent problems with copper alloy hunting and match bullets if Congress were to amend it to also use the "designed and intended" language (an easy change).

Mike
 
The way the law *should* be interpreted, and the way it *is* interpreted, are two different things.
Click to expand...
I understand that. I am trying to make it clear to people what the law actually says so hopefully they'll speak out about it.
 
Neo-Luddite said:
.....and goodbye cheap blasting ammo for the AK-74!!!:cuss:
Click to expand...
The commercial stuff will still be available, and is pretty inexpensive. Yes, there will probably be a spike in the price, but once people realize they can still get it at decent prices, it should calm back down.
 
dont you worry about green tip ammo, itll be one of the next ones to be banned.. they do these thinks in increments.. fewer people have 5.45mm rifles, so they will start here to see if they can get away with it.. 7n6 no more fits the description of armor piercing than your green tip ammo.. so once the ATF feels they have gotten away with banning 7n6, the 5.56mm stuff is next

so those of you with the idea that you shouldnt give a damn because the 7n6 ban doesnt effect you.. it WILL effect you at some point if they are allowed to get away with banning whatever they want without any legal reason to do so
 
There's a 'suitable for sporting uses' clause that may (at their discretion) be applied to some of these (quote below). It's been a little while since I've done my homework on this but if ammunition meets this completely arbitrary litmus test it can be deemed that ammunition is NOT armor piercing.

When I sent in written testimony to the BATFE committee in December 2012 on armor piercing ammunition (just before SH), I cited many factors which makes the definition of "armor piercing" irrelevant for all practical purposes. E.g. there is no definitions by which to define "armor piercing" - is a round armor piercing if it defeats soft body armor? Even FMJ will do that. Is a round armor piercing if it defeats NIJ Level IV? 30-06 M2 AP can't do that. (In fact, defeating 30-06 M2 AP is the *definition* of the threat for NIJ Level IV).

SS109/M855 is particularly suitable for Sporting use (NRA High Power / CMP), as it is an inherently accurate cartridge. Just as the old 30-06 M2 AP is.

So what we need here is enough people shooting 7N6 at matches and request importation on the Sporting Use clause.

7N6 isn't going to penetrate any better than anything else in that general area of bore diameter - it'll be stopped cold by NIJ Level IV armor piercing (source: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf)

If anything *more* projectiles should become available to civilians as armor technologies develop; not *less*.



27 CFR 478.148 - ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION INTENDED FOR SPORTING OR INDUSTRIAL PURPOSES.

§ 478.148 Armor piercing ammunition intended for sporting or industrial purposes.
The Director may exempt certain armor piercing ammunition from the requirements of this part. A person who desires to obtain an exemption under this section for any such ammunition which is primarily intended for sporting purposes or intended for industrial purposes, including charges used in oil and gas well perforating devices, shall submit a written request to the Director. Each request shall be executed under the penalties of perjury and contain a complete and accurate description of the ammunition, the name and address of the manufacturer or importer, the purpose of and use for which it is designed and intended, and any photographs, diagrams, or drawings as may be necessary to enable the Director to make a determination. The Director may require that a sample of the ammunition be submitted for examination and evaluation.
[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10507, Mar. 31, 1988]
Click to expand...
 
well trent, unfortunately the government is not in business to give you fewer restrictons and more rights.. if 7n6 has been banned on grounds of it being armor piercing you can be damn sure m855 isnt far behind
 
As arbitrary as the laws are and as capricious as the ATF is... yeah I always watch this sort of stuff with some fascination.

One of the things that led me to get off my duff and write a written testimony back in 2012 during the open inquiry the BATF held was knowing that to a large degree the disposition of some of this is up to whim and mood, I wanted to give some feedback.

Aside from the 'sporting clause' I mentioned above, there's also a very real interest for people who are bona-fide collectors of military arms to obtain a quantity and maintain a supply of period-correct ammunition for those arms.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

TGW1979
  • Locked
Green Tipped 5.56 NATO Vs. 5.56 55gr
2 3 4 5 6 7
Replies
151
Views
11K
HowieG
H
B
  • Locked
Is all green tip 5.56 ammo steel cored?
Replies
12
Views
9K
HorseSoldier
H
ol' scratch
  • Locked
5.45 7n6 ATF ammo question. How is it legal under definition of AP? Is M855 next?
Replies
17
Views
2K
itsa pain
I
kje54
  • Locked
Winchester 'Green Tip' to be "Banned"
2 3 4
Replies
84
Views
4K
Robert
Robert
L
  • Locked
RE: Fragmenting 5.45?
Replies
9
Views
2K
Spencer
S
Back
Top