Grip Angle thoughts

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Dulvarian

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Ok. This is not to start a flame war, this is an honest question because I don't see the grip angle issue the same way everyone else sees it, I think.

A lot of people talk about grip angles being a deciding factor on whether they like a gun or not. The way 'my daddy taught me' was to take a firm grip basically pointing at the ground with you finger outside the trigger guard. Raise the gun so that you are "pointing" at the target. By the time your finger is pointed in the direction of your target, you should have sight alignment. Dominant eye goes to the front sight booger hooker goes to the bang switch. Rinse and repeat.

I have never noticed grip angle on anything. My question is simply, if you picked up a gun that you had never fired before, is this how you acquire a target and shoot? The way that I learned seemed so perfectly natural to me that I have never needed to question it. It is how I teach other people when I am introducing them to handguns, and most people have found similar success using that method. I am not an instructor, just a friendly shooter.

Am I doing people a disservice to teach that way? I simply don't understand that there has to be a 'correct angle' for most reasonably sized handguns. (I consider heavy caliber handguns separately, nor would I allow a novice to shoot one anyway.) It isn't like a punch where you actually need to line up the first two knuckles for impact so that the two strongest bones bear the impact. Kind of along those same lines, most of my power for grip on the handle comes from my pinkies and ring fingers. For me, that alleviates tension in the middle finger, which puts pretty much no stress on my index finger. Changing the force of my grip is what gave me the opportunity to really focus on the proper engagement and pulling of the trigger itself.

So, not from a book somewhere (unless you wrote it), what are your opinions on the matter? If you have a 'preferred grip angle' can you explain why? And if you don't, does your experience seem similar to mine? Also along the same lines, based on the form of pretty much any auto I have ever fired, it is a completely different universe for grip angles on a revolver. I use the same method to shoot both autos and revolvers.

For the record, the only reason that I am asking is because I get so many questions from people, especially people looking at buying their first guns. I would like to draw on a larger knowledge base for input so I can provide better assistance to new shooters. I am not condemning anyone else's style, method, or preference. I simply don't understand the insistence that some people have on a certain grip angle.
 
The main issue is when you switch between 2 guns with different angles. It can slow you down a little bit when you first make the transition.
 
I never knew much about how grip angle affected a natural POA until i took my CHL class.
Which was perfect as i had taken it with my 1911 and another person had a Glock so you could really see the differences.
He had us hold our guns 2 handed with both of our index fingers pointed straight out and then at the target and then look where the sights were at.
With my 1911 i was dead on target and when i fired from the hip one handed i was hitting COM every time.
But then i tried the Glock, Thats where it got harder to do.
When my fingers were naturally pointing at the target with a 2 handed grip the gun sights were way high iirc. I didn't shoot from the hip as it wasn't my gun.
But the point was to teach people their NPOA.

Even still this happened we were assured with practice it could become natural with a Glock also even if a 1911 gives me a perfect NPOA.

1 year prior to that day i had owned a G20 and i knew something was odd but i couldn't put my finger on it as, Well i wasn't taught anything about it.
I was a great shot with that gun, But it took practice and i noticed my wrist had to be bent down to get the gun on target. But it never affected anything.

I believe people should be taught how to find their NPOA so they know whats going on with some guns that may feel odd at first and not to discount them as it can be overcome with practice. Had i not been taught i never would have known why a Glock felt weird except that it had a different grip angle, But i never knew it had to do with how a persons body is made.

So yes id say teach it, Knowledge is always good.
 
Grip angle is really interesting is you try to look at it objectively. Neither angle is more correct or natural, it is a cultural difference.

Those who prefer the 1911 angle, lock their wrist in the same grip that folks use to hold a hammer. It is more of a power grip.

The grip facilitated by the Glock angle is a more relaxed grip, much like the grip used in fencing. If you extend you arm out to the side, with the thumb on top, and then relax the hand/wrist...you have the angle accommodated by this grip. it is more a finesse grip.

An interesting point is that most top level shooters of the 1911 use both styles of grip when shooting in competition. The strong hand assumes the hammer grip and the support hand assumes the fencing grip as they extend the support thumb forward
 
"...Am I doing people a disservice to teach that way?..." Hi. Not at all. However, the fit to the hand is about being able to easily reach the trigger, correctly, with no stress. The grip angle makes no difference if the pistol's frame is too big or too small for the shooter. The pistol's frame is either too big or it isn't. Has nothing to do with the grip angle. The grip angle isn't something that can be changed anyway.
"...just a friendly shooter..." That is far more important to a new shooter than anything else. Don't stop.
"...Rinse and repeat..." You can turn a phrase too. Refreshing, so it is.
 
I think grip angle is a highly subjective thing for most people. Some people have to have an angle that is "just perfect," while others don't seem to notice the difference.

Put me in the "don't notice the difference" camp. I have fired 1911s, S&W DA revolvers, Ruger SA revolvers, Ruger DA revolvers and Glocks. My primary is the Glock, with a K-frame S&W as a second choice. Yet I can jump to a 1911 and do fine work with one of those too. Maybe it is because I am a front-sight and trigger-squeeze shooter, but grip angle doesn't matter much to me. And if you're working targets close and point shooting, again, it doesn't matter to my hands, the hits are the same. The only difference is I can't hit from the hip from beyond contact distance, which is just a matter of practice. Might go work on that today!

Natural Point of Aim (NPA) is all about where the sights point when you relax, instead of muscling the firearm into position. This is really critical in prone long-range rifle shooting (or any precision shooting). Any muscle influence is inconsistent.

And lastly, I love to use this line because it is the best advice I have ever heard about shooting. It was from a rifle team coach, but it applies equally to handguns and shotguns. "You're holding on to a stick that explodes in front of your face, what's natural about it?"
 
I find it odd that people spend so much energy on debating grip angle. Yes, some are better than others. But the main stream modern weapons are all about equivalent IMO.

People should just learn to adapt and adjust. For instance, your favorite handgun's grip angle is different than your favorite non-pistol grip rifle which may be different than your favorite shotgun...

Improvise, adapt and overcome...
 
An interesting point is that most top level shooters of the 1911 use both styles of grip when shooting in competition. The strong hand assumes the hammer grip and the support hand assumes the fencing grip as they extend the support thumb forward
9mmepiphany, very good point you bring up.

We used to have the same discussion among match shooters in the past and one range master gave us an impromptu class on grip and instinctive/point shooting.

He made us all hold our pistols (1911s, HKs, Sigs, CZs, Berettas, Glocks, etc.) with just the thumb and the third finger and practice shooting with our index fingers. He said this two finger grip is "essential" to properly hold and fire the pistol and the grip angle is less critical. All the extra fingers that get added by your shooting and non-shooting hands are there for "support" and often decrease our shot group accuracy by pushing or moving the grip of the pistol during firing.

Once we got proficient with the two finger grip shooting, he then moved us to our usual instinctive/point shooting drill where we start with our eyes closed and draw to shoot Center of Mass (COM) which duplicates low light/no light shooting situation without your visual input (He taught PD/Sheriff SWAT).

For tactical defensive shooting where available light is low and use of sights is not practical (we have run night shootings with night sights and depending on the size of muzzle flash, your pupils will constrict enough that night sights are not that bright anymore), he stated we need to emphasize more on the faster instinctive/point shooting than match shooting practice of "front sight flash". When we got done, he asked "Did any of you have issues with grip angle of your pistol?"

Next time you are at the range, try this drill that range master and a seasoned regional match shooters taught us (it's fun to do and hones a very critical life-saving close range low light defensive shooting technique):

- Set your target at 5 yards
- Load and ready your pistol and get a comfortable two-hand grip on your pistol (now, REMEMBER this grip and do not change your grip by adjusting your wrist during the drill)
- Pick a spot on your target and close your eyes (start with COM)
- Raise your pistol to point at the spot on the target and fire
- Open your eyes and see if POI matched POA
- If POI matched POA, then with your eyes open and focusing on the hole on the target (not your sights), repeat fire - your subsequent holes should "appear" around POA
- If POI did not match POA, DO NOT adjust your "comfortable" grip at the wrist, but adjust your POA by rotating only at your waist and shouder. Repeat fire with your eyes open focused on the target (not your sights) until your POI matches POA
- Once you get repeatable POI matching POA with your eyes closed or not looking at your sights, practice quick draw and instinctive/point shooting so your shot groups are less than 6" at multiple points on the target
- Move target out to 7 yards and repeat drill until proficient

Now you should be confident that you can quickly and accurately hit threat targets at 5-7+ yards in low/no light shooting situations without using your sights.
 
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