Grip Inconsistency?

[doc540]

So, at the range today I wasn't getting a consistent grip on my 9mm Commander with traditional, double diamond grips (stocks, panels, etc.)

The range owner mentioned that my hands might not be "fitting" that grip system.

So, I've ordered a set of the Pachmayr American Legend grips panels with the rubber finger grooves.

I do practice dry fire drawing, gripping, and sight acquisition, but I'm really having to concentrate more than I suspect I should be concentrating on the grip.

I know for a fact that an inconsistent, "incorrect" grip adversely affects my accuracy.

Your thoughts?

Thanks
doc

like these: (and, yes, I'm aware of the rust potential)

 

[Drail]

Are you referring to an inconsistent grip each time you draw the gun or pick it up or are you saying that your unable to mantain a consistent grip as the gun shifts in recoil?

 

[doc540]

Unable to draw with a consistent grip even though I'm dry-fire practicing on a regular basis.

thnx

 

[167]

Then slow down the draw until you can do it the right way everytime and slowly build your speed from there.

Concentrate on being smooth and consistent, then build your speed.

It might help to have someone coach/observe your practice to make sure everything is being done correctly, or video it and check for inconsistencies as you go.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Then slow down the draw until you can do it the right way everytime and slowly build your speed from there.

Concentrate on being smooth and consistent, then build your speed.

It might help to have someone coach/observe your practice to make sure everything is being done correctly, or video it and check for inconsistencies as you go.

this would be the correct advice. generally, if you are not getting a consistent grip on the draw, you don't understand the master grip you need when shooting...and you're going too fast. before the gun even starts to move out of the holster, your Master Grip has to be established

the best way to construct your master grip is by working backwards from your shooting grip. with you gun extended in your shooting grip, apply safeties as applicable and:
1. bring your hands to high ready
2. separate your hands as the strong hand pulls the gun back to your armpit
3. rotate the muzzle downward to align with to mouth of the holster
4. insert the gun
5. the grip on the gun in your holster is your Master Grip

if you can't do the above, you likely need some instruction on gripping and drawing from the holster

 

[doc540]

Could be wrong, but my master grip seems fine.

Support hand (left) doesn't seem to be consistently going where it should be going when I do anything other than slow-mo draw.

And I shoot with the "two-thumbs-pointed-and-parallel" style.

thnx

 

[9mmepiphany]

do you mean like this?


the left hand fills in the open area left vacant after the right hand has established it's grip

 

[doc540]

Yes, like that, (rest my right hand thumb on the Ed Brown extended safety) and I understand where my support hand is supposed to go, but the 1911 doesn't reel as intuitively "natural" as my thicker-gripped guns like the HK, Glock, and Sig.

I have pretty long fingers.

I'll try that thicker Pachmayr and continue to practice slow-draw grip.

thanks

The Commander

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Your accuracy in rapid fire will definitely be affected if the gun moves in your hand. Whether the new grips will aid in this is something only you can determine. Wraparound, finger groove grips do add bulk to the grip, possibly negating one of the 1911's virtues, its slim grip. You might try some skateboard or ladder tape on your frontstrap, too.

 

[9mmepiphany]

well, i think we're at the point where you are going to have to post pictures of what grip you are getting when you are not getting the correct grip. i can't even imagine where else you can put

the Sig 220ST, also a single stack .45ACP, pictured has aluminum grips to get more toward the feel of the 1911.
have you tried an arched MSH?
do your fingers reach further forward (pass the ejection port) than mine?

 

[doc540]

Yes, they reach about 1/2" to 3/4" further.

And it's kind of hard to get a pic of my incorrect grip because I usually shift the gun and correct it after the first shot.

I know some 1911 grip panels are thicker and some thinner, so I thought I'd just try a different dimension grip and see what happens.

Plus, it's a good excuse to buy more gun stuff.

 

[9mmepiphany]

i'd give some serious thought to increasing the depth rather than the width because of your longer fingers...the arched MSH is pretty simple and usually requires no fitting

 

[doc540]

Yes, depth is why I chose the American Legends.

 

[AOK]

K.I.S.S.

Are you moving in an efficient and consistent manner?

Is your holster in the same position everytime when training? Is the holster in slightly different positions because your beltloops are in different spots on your bottoms (if you wear an OWB)?
Whenever I'm training or am in a class, there are times I will get a little sloppy trying to push myself. I just slow things down a bit and concentrate on being efficient rather than fast. I focus on moving my hand (point A) straight back to the grip (point B). Elbow come straight back leading my hand directly to my gun everytime (with the exception of awkward draws).

Don't make it more difficult than it needs to be. Just keep it simple, and keep it consistent!

 

[David E]

Unable to draw with a consistent grip even though I'm dry-fire practicing on a regular basis.

Then it's your draw stroke and/or a poor holster.

Could be wrong, but my master grip seems fine.

Um, ok. I'm always amused when someone cites a problem he doesn't know how to fix then challenges the input given...

If the support hand is inconsistent, then perhaps you're trying to join the two hands too late or too far out.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Um, ok. I'm always amused when someone cites a problem he doesn't know how to fix then challenges the input given...

If the support hand is inconsistent, then perhaps you're trying to join the two hands too late or too far out.

i agree, the left ahnd not being able to gain consistent placement is almost never a stock panel problem.

just curious, is the centerline of your gun centered on the line through your wrist/forearm when in your Master Grip?

 

[David E]

And do you acheive the "master firing grip" before the gun lifts a fraction of an inch out of the holster?

 

[xm21]

Todd Jarrett has a video on you tube about how to get a consistent grip that involves using a sharpie to mark reference points on your hand.

The guy is not only a master shooter he is a gifted teacher.

 

[Drail]

Having to re acquire your grip after the first shot would indicate to me that your intial grip is incorrect and is not allowing you to control the recoil. The gun should be locked in your grip and the only thing you should see is the gun AND your hands rising up and back down in recoil. Most shooters find that good sharp checkering or skateboard tape on the gips and the gun will stop this. If your hands are sweaty and slippery use some rosin.

 

[doc540]

cliffs:

holster's fine

mastergrip's fine

draw is fine

support hand to mastergrip is inconsistent

"f the support hand is inconsistent, then perhaps you're trying to join the two hands too late or too far out.

Could be, but dry fire practice has created a fairly consistent "mating" of the hands.

"Having to re acquire your grip after the first shot would indicate to me that your intial grip is incorrect and is not allowing you to control the recoil."

That's partially what's happening. The initial grip by the support hand isn't correct, I'm firing an inaccurate first shot, readjusting the grip, and shooting accurate followup shots.

In short, the stock, double diamond panels on the frame just feel "thin", and I don't have an intuitive, natural "wrap" of my support hand mostly but both hands just don't feel comfortable.

All I'm going to do is try an "wider" set of grips and see if the problem remains. If larger grips fit my hands better I'm moving forward, if not I'll make other adjustments.

Of course, if I slow way down, I get a better support hand grip, but the overall gun grip still feels "thin".

And thanks for all the input.

 

[9mmepiphany]

i'm still having a hard time figuring out the placement of your support hand.

i tried my thinnest gun, Kahr, and my grip feels even more secure. the first knuckles of the strong hand fill the palm of the support hand. you have to remember that the support hand really grips more of the right hand than the gun.

i suspect that when your hands join, at high ready, you're not rotating your wrist far enough forward as you push the gun out.

i just occurred to me that we never determined if you are shooting from an Isosceles or Weaver

 

[twofifty]

roll your support hand onto the stock

doc540: FWIW, once you've brought both hands together on the stock, make sure that your support (weak) hand is in full contact with the stock panel. You want to minimize gaps between the fleshy part of your hand and the panel.

I establish my support hand grip by rolling the heel of my hand (the thick fleshy part) onto the stock panel, starting from the bottom. This somehow indexes my left hand and if done right I end up with the support hand thumb in my preferred location on the frame.

Any time I blow this, the gun jerks around, shot intervals increase, and my match scores are way down. Rather than totally blow the rest of the stage, I take the time to establish full contact then salvage what I can.

 

[DFW1911]

Then slow down the draw until you can do it the right way everytime and slowly build your speed from there.

Concentrate on being smooth and consistent, then build your speed.

It might help to have someone coach/observe your practice to make sure everything is being done correctly, or video it and check for inconsistencies as you go.

Excellent advice. Also, when you're at the range make sure you're not accidentally shifting / adjusting your grip when firing (unless needed). It happens a lot to folks who seem to need to reset their grip before the pull of the trigger.

A comfortable and consistent grip is key to accuracy.

Good luck!

 

[Lastmohecken]

I struggled for years with grips for the 1911, until I finally figured out that a sharply checkered pair of wood grips, is about as good as it gets for a 1911. Some grip safetys don't feel as good as others, and a sharp checkered frontstrap and mainspring housing will help to keep the gun in place in the hand.

Personally, I prefer the Arched Mainspring housing, which is not as common today, on new guns as it once was. The Arched mainspring housing helps to keep my hand shoved up tight in the beavertail grip safety.

The other thing is, I think too many people are shooting with long triggers. It seems that most guns are comming from the factory with flat mainspring housings, and long triggers these days, and shot the same for years until I tried a gun that had an arched mainspring housing and short trigger, and my shooting and natural pointing improved a great deal and that was after quite a few years of shooting with long triggers, and flat mainspring housings.

And last but probably most important is trigger control, not grip. I was having troubles shooting weak hand stages and I mentioned to Bill Wilson that I must be gripping the gun differently and causing my hits to be off. He told me it was not my grip but my trigger control, and to go back to slow fire, with extra effort on the surprise break, and he was right, I pulling the gun off with my trigger finger, and it had nothing to do with my grip being different from strong hand to weak hand.

My point being trigger control is everything, well maybe not everything, but without it, you won't shoot good, no matter what your grip is.

 

[Fremmer]

Your accuracy in rapid fire will definitely be affected if the gun moves in your hand. Whether the new grips will aid in this is something only you can determine. Wraparound, finger groove grips do add bulk to the grip, possibly negating one of the 1911's virtues, its slim grip.

I agree with all of that. I too purchased a hogue wrap around w/ finger grooves for my 1911. I have big (sweaty) hands, and that gun kept moving with the standard grips. I have lost the slim profile, but what a difference the rubber wrap around grips make! When the gun moves in the primary hand during recoil, it'll almost always cause your support hand to move, too, and that's when things get awfully inconsistent. So I think your idea of the new rubber grips is the correct one; it certainly cured the problem for me, as though I was shooting a whole new gun. See how you do with the new grips; my guess is that the gun will be much more stable during recoil, and both hands will remain more consistently in place.