grits and cotton question?

[MeekandMild]

What do you use for filler at the top of reloaded pistol brass when using fast powders. I've heard of using grits and cotton wadding but are there other things? Would kitty litter be too abrasive?

 

[twowheel]

Cream of wheat was available, and used during the black powder days of the late 1800's. I don't like it because it's heavy, and when you add a filler, you have to add its weight to that of the bullet. I now use grits for two reasons 1) it's light and cheap and 2) being made of corn, when it's compressed there is corn oil produced and burned off which actually adds some lubrication. I can feel it on the pin holding the cylinder and on the front of the revolver frame.

I've heard of folks using dried potato flakes (as in instant mashed potatoes) and regular, not instant, oat meal.

I don't like cotton or dacron because of being hard to measure equally.

I have a powder measure filled with grits that I use to add them after the powder. For 45 colt and 44 mag, I use rather fast powder, like Clays. Just remember that whatever the gunpowder is going to be shooting has to be included in the overall weight of the projectile.

 

[Jim Watson]

Why do you need a filler over a light load of fast burning pistol powder?
It is a lot of extra work and an extra variable in the load unless you are getting some kind of major improvement in accuracy.

 

[twowheel]

Actually, there is an improvement in accuracy due to the more consistent powder burning; the powder is always held at the rear, up against the primer hole. Turns out that there is probably more complete combustion. I went from 4.6 gr of clays, plain to 3.5 gr clays with grits filling the case and got exactly the same velocity but also less deviation shot to shot.

Black powder guys/gals began using fillers to ensure that the powder was up against the primer hole and there was no air space between powder and bullet. That air space causes very nasty changes in combustion with black powder and can blow those guns up.

 

[Jim Watson]

What kind of accuracy improvement do you see on the target?

The only kind of filler I put in MY black powder ammo is more black powder. But I am shooting BPCR silhouette at full range.

 

[twowheel]

I'm shooting cowboy action shooting with small amounts (3.5gr) of clays in the big 45 colt case so there's lots of extra room for powder to slosh around if it's not contained with a filler. I found accuracy to be about 50% better which I attribute to the fact that there is high consistency in powder combustion.

 

[ChristopherG]

I've heard of this procedure, actually shot with a guy whose 640 smelled like a dang toaster when he shot it; but I just can't get past this concern. How do you prevent the powder from mixing with the grits (or whatever you shove in there); and if it does mix, then how can that possibly help it combust? Or is it supposed to mix? Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[Jim Watson]

Granular filler and gunpowder MUST NOT MIX.
You have to use enough to have a compressed load so the case contents can't shift around and mix.
Friend of mine has loaded assorted fillers over nitro powders in his .450 BPE. The kitchen improvisations helped, he tried Cream of Wheat, grits, and cornmeal that I recall; but his best shooting is with Grex granular plastic as sold for buffering shotshells.

 

[twowheel]

The "secret" if there is one, is to ensure that the powder is at the bottom of the case and then fill the case with filler so that when the bullet is seated it actually compresses the powder and filler a bit. It's the compression of the filler that keeps the powder from mixing with the filler. Virtually all filler material that should be used has to have some compressibility (sp?). In my case, I fill the case nearly to the top with grits and then, with my finger over the top of the case I jiggle the case a little (not enough to mix powder with grits) which settles the grits so that when the bullet is seated, it compresses the mixture about 1/8". I feel sure that I could compress the mix even more, but I haven't had to do that.

Next to my business is another business that may be familiar to many of you, Track of The Wolf, a mailorder black powder shooting supply company (Fine BP rifles and pistols, as well as all the accessories and parts you might need) and they are extensive BP shooters. The owner uses potato flakes from instant mashed potato mix on top of reduced BP loads and just compresses the whole thing really tight. I think the potato buds compress more than grits. We've had several lengthy discussions regarding fillers and these guys have tried just about everything. I use grits because the meter OK in my progressive press. But, the old, original filler was cream of wheat; that meters well, too.

 

[MeekandMild]

Not having a second automatic powder measure I use the little Lee powder measure cups for grits. It doesn't seem like potato flakes would be as easy to get out of the measure cup. ??

 

[twowheel]

MeekandMild,

You are right. Although they weigh more, I think cream of wheat would work with those Lee measures.

Just for information...I have a Dillon 550B. When reloading with a filler, I run the cases through the size/deprime/primer stage, then the powder fill stage, and then take them out and put them in a reloading block. After 100 or so cases I change out the powder for filler, and a different measure bar set up for the correct amount of grits. Then I put the cases, one at a time, in the powder drop and cycle them to the bullet seating station with my finger over the top of the case and the little jiggle. Put a bullet on the case, put next case in the powder drop station and pull the handle. This continues until all the cases are complete.

There is a fellow in my CAS club that has a Dillon 660, the one with 5 stations, and he's rigged up a second powder drop station in which he uses grits and can therefore do the entire case without having to remove them from the press as I do.

If you have a manual powder measure, that can be used with filler. Or, two manual measures, one with powder, one with filler. All sorts of combinations are possible.

 

[ChristopherG]

Thanks for the clarifications; the use of slight compression to hold things in place sounds reasonable.

 

[twowheel]

I'm pretty impressed that the opening question of this thread created as much response and information as it has.

 

[ChristopherG]

And yet we still haven't answered the original question about Kitty litter. Obviously I'm in no position to speak authoritatively, but I sure wouldn't think it'd be a good idea. It couldn't be compressed like the other fillers suggested here; and, more importantly, it's not combustible!

 

[twowheel]

Good point, ChristopherG. I agree that kitty litter would not be good. Although some smokeless powder folks use dacron, I don't like it. Not easily measured in equal pieces, and it's plastic; it won't burn but it will melt.

 

[Roadkill]

I load .357s with reduced loads for target practice, I use styrofoam for a filler. Had a dozen or so styrofoam ceiling tiles left over from a renovation project, I take a razor blade and cut strips about 1/2" wide then cut these into cubes. They are snug, light weight, and leave no signature when shot.

rk

 

[MeekandMild]

So we have grits, cream of wheat, oatmeal, potato flakes, styrofoam, Grex, cornmeal (like grits or cream of wheat but denser and finer and heavier).

Christopher, re kitty litter. The kitty litter question was not just an academic one. The geology of my present home is such that I have an exposed vein of bentonite clay (which is de facto kitty litter) about six feet thick on a hillside which runs over a hundred yards on my property. So if I could figure out how to use kitty litter I could get by with never stealing Mrs. Meek's grits again.

In addition to lack of compressibility kitty litter would have the problems of too much weight, abrasiveness and water absorbtion. But any of the food based grains would have water absorbtion. So that must not be a key factor is it?

 

[Johnny Guest]

Re: Water absorbtion - - -

Actually, ANY powder is pretty eager to absorb water from the air, most especially black powder. In my mind, it is a given that you must keep your powder measure properly covered. If I go a couple of days and don't want to decant the powder back into the original container, I cover the powder measure with a plastic bag and secure it with a rubber band. Or, failing that, an elastic orchestra.

Seriously, though - - - I'm learning a lot reading this thread. I've never felt the need to use fillers in my selection of loads. May try some out now.

Best,
Johnny

 

[BluesBear]

Be careful using styrofoam and various plastic materials as filler.
Besides melting and possible leaving some real gunky stuff in your bore, styrofoam gives off extremely toxic fumes when burned as can some plastics.

 

[Harve Curry]

I've used poly fiber fill in my antique Marlin 1881 45-70 rifle for 10+ years. In my gun it likes 23gr. of 2400, 0.8gr tuft of poly fiber fill, Lyman 335gr bullet. I get very good groups with low pressure sign. 1.5" at 100 yards bench rested. Without the filler the load is no good. Other loads in manuals have not shot as good yet, but I'm always looking.
I'm interested in replacing the poly fiber fill with the corn meal. Anyone have any 45-70 smokeless loads that they use corn meal filler in?

 

[Harve Curry]

One more time around.
Loads on using grits filler in large volume black powder cases for smokeless reloads.
Any recipes?

 

[Black Snowman]

Another option people have left out is finding a bulkier powder. This isn't always an option, particularly in old blackpowder cases updated for modern smokeless, but is woth investigating.

I tend to like flake and extruded powders for this reason. It has more flash and pretty sparks but if using #7 for anything the old flake version can still be had from www.gibrass.com and it has easily twice the bulk if not more of the current ball version.

If it meters well for you (it seems to work well in my Lee Deluxe Auto-Disk) it makes some very consistant and accurate loads. I've been using it in my 10mm and 9mm loads with great results. All are slightly compressed.

 

[patentnonsense]

And yet we still haven't answered the original question about Kitty litter. ...
it's not combustible!

You mean FRESH Kitty Litter??
I've been around some boxes that would blow a hole in the floor if they ever dried out...