wadding for rifle loads

[spitballer]

I use a lot of ball powder and there are times when I simply have no choice but to use a reduced load, and I'd like to use some kind of wadding to hold the charge in place to prevent shifting and asymmetry, and to hold the charge against the primer. I've searched some of the old threads for previous posts concerning this and found some interesting suggestions (like remembering to add the weight of the filler to the weight of the bullet when making calculations), but nothing recent on this subject. I'm not so much concerned with compression but I am concerned about holding the charge against the primer in a symmetrical fashion, and it first occurred to me to simply use cotton from a cotton ball. But previous posts have suggesting everything from sawdust to grits to Styrofoam. Since weight is a consideration I like the idea of the Styrofoam.

Actually I'd like to invent some instant hardening soap suds in a spray can, specifically designed for reloading. But barring this, I'll have to use something more readily available like cotton wadding. The filler will need to fill up a space to about halfway down the shoulder of a .223 case, about 5 grains' worth, probably no more than that. But that's still a lot of space to fill with something heavy like grits, it seems to me. Has anyone used cotton wadding successfully in a situation like this? Or crushed Styrofoam? I'll try almost anything once, but I'll not use a charge that's too large, simply to prevent shifting of propellant. Thanks in advance for input.

 

[ReloaderFred]

If not done properly, you stand the chance of "ringing" your chamber. There have been many reports of chamber ringing over the years from the use of case fillers, but off the top of my head, I can't remember the exact circumstances.

In the two calibers where I do use a case filler, I use Winchester Super Grex, which is no longer commercially available. Fortunately, I've got a lifetime supply which will suffice for my needs. Super Grex was/is used as a filler in premium shotshell loads to keep the shot from being excessively battered. It's a very finely ground white plastic that is fluffy in granulation, and if you spill it, you'll cuss it's very existence. Walkalong also uses it in some of his loads.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Reloadron]

Unfortunately Super Grex by Winchester is no longer marketed, it was like a pulverized plastic. People have used case fillers like cream or wheat, grits, oatmean, cornmeal and a host of others. The problem with the fore mentioned is unless you really know what you are doing you run the risk, as mentioned, of ringing your chamber. There is a list of bad things that can happen.

Case Fillers to keep powder against the primer which is generally the objective. The link involves the use of some tissue paper which is a relatively safe way to start. Alas poor Super Grex for we knew it well.

Ron

 

[rcmodel]

Dacron pollster pillow stuffing has been and old standby for years.

I would suggest however, it is a waste of pillow stuffing in your application.

rc

 

[TimSr]

Dacron pillow stuffing used to be the standard, but if the vacant space you are trying to fill only goes down to the shoulder of case, then you are wasting your time.

Anything granulated that can mix with the powder can change the powder's burn characteristics. Shot buffer materials are added to the shot, not the powder.

 

[ReloaderFred]

TimSR,

Anything granulated that can mix with the powder can change the powder's burn characteristics. Shot buffer materials are added to the shot, not the powder.

Some of us have been using Super Grex as a case filler for many, many years. There were magazine articles written about it's use in Handloader and The American Rifleman back in the 1970's, which is how I came to use it. When used properly, it works just fine, but since it's no longer available from Winchester, it's really a moot subject. I only brought it up as a reference to what has been successfully used in the past.

I still use it, since when Winchester announced to dealers they would no longer sell it, I purchased all that was available from my suppliers. I was a dealer at the time, so had some advance notice that it was going to be discontinued.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Malamute]

The filler will need to fill up a space to about halfway down the shoulder of a .223 case, about 5 grains' worth, probably no more than that. But that's still a lot of space to fill with something heavy like grits, it seems to me

Actually, its not a lot of space to fill. I'll respectfully suggest you are concerned about a non-issue. Few loads have at or close to 100% load density. I use a small tuft of Dacron fluff in reduced loads, but what you are calling reduced isn't by any stretch of the imagination a true reduced load. The ones I use the tiny ball of Dacron are 3 grs Unique with a round ball in 30-30, 6 1/2 grs Unique with light cast bullet in 30-30, 4 grs Unique or Red Dot with a round ball in 348, 6 1/2 grs Unique with round ball in 45-70, and truly reduced rifle loads that occupy less than about 2/3 or 1/2 of the available space. I've seen improvement in using the fluff in 38 1/2 grs 3031 w/400 gr bullet in 45-70, when the load is increased to take up more space it isn't worth the time. It IS worth the time (to me) in more consistent ignition in the much reduced loads.

 

[MEHavey]

If you are deliberately using a ball powder at reduced loads,
you are banging your head against a tree. And true fillers of
any significant amount in a bottleneck case are bad juju.

Any load that needs a powder positioner [not filler]
at that point should only be the likes of a light tuft of kapok or
even toilet tissue -- and ball powders won't like that either.

Bite the bullet (as it were) and get some fast powder(s) that mitigate
against position dependence -- and use kapok/toilet tissue only if really
required.

 

[snuffy]

This is about as close to grex as can be found;

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI-Original-Design-Buffer-500cc/productinfo/BUFFER/

 

[Malamute]

If you are deliberately using a ball powder at reduced loads,

He said hes only wanted to "fill" from the powder being only halfway down the shoulder, which is hardly a blip on the radar.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Not to belabor the issue, but here is a quote from snuffy's link to Ballistic Products Shot Buffer:

Original Buffer cushions the shot payload during critical stages of transition through areas of constriction, reducing disturbance and chaos during initial stages of pattern development. Original Shot Buffer has also been recommended by leading experts for use as a case filler in centerfire cartridges.

It's my understanding that the Ballistic Products Shot Buffer is the same formula as Winchester's Super Grex. I was buying the Super Grex for $2.95 a bottle, but that was quite some time ago. A friend had two unopened bottles and I recently paid him $5.00 for each of them.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[MEHavey]

Isn't it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?

Read the ops second para again. It makes no sense as to "symmetrical position against the the primer" UNLESS he has a significant space to fill.

So read not just the lines next time, but between them as well.

 

[Walkalong]

That was in his Sig line.

 

[Malamute]

I read the paragraph, that's what makes me question his understanding of "a lot of space to fill", if hes talking the powder level only halfway down the shoulder. Id guess most factory loads have that much air space. You wouldn't be able to hear the powder shake around if it was filled to 100% capacity, and most factory rifle loads I've shaken, you could easily hear the powder (assuming your hearing is still good enough).

I dont think I'm missing anything between the lines, I think hes way overthinking this whole thing, overestimating the load as being a low load density or needing any sort of "filler" or "wadding". Id never think twice about a powder level that was halfway down the shoulder level.

My understanding of his "halfway down the shoulder level" sounds like the powder level is halfway between the neck and body of the case, not halfway down the case body length, or what might be called half full.

If he means halfway down FROM the shoulder, that's quite different, but it wasn what he wrote.

 

[osprey176]

Maybe not the answer you want, but why not use a powder better suited to reduced loads. Trail Boss is an easy solution to your situation without overthinking it. No fillers needed. It's what I use for light loads.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

And if it is in fact half way down from the shoulder??

Big mistake to be loading ball powder that light in the first place!!

rc

 

[Malamute]

On further reflection during a dog walk, Mr Havey may have the correct understanding of his meaning. I took the 5 gr comment as it being a pretty small reduction in overall capacity being considered.

I guess until Mr(?) Spitball clarifies his meaning, we wont know for sure.

And if it is in fact half way down from the shoulder??

Big mistake to be loading ball powder that light in the first place!!

Entirely agree with this conclusion if he did in fact mean a half empty case.

 

[TimSr]

And if it is in fact half way down from the shoulder??

"Half way down FROM the shoulder" has a whole different meaning than "half way down the shoulder". I interpret one as half a case full and the other as nearly filled to the neck.

Hard to understand what OP actually means here.

 

[TimSr]

Some of us have been using Super Grex as a case filler for many, many years. There were magazine articles written about it's use in Handloader and The American Rifleman back in the 1970's, which is how I came to use it. When used properly, it works just fine, but since it's no longer available from Winchester, it's really a moot subject.

This is very interesting to me. Sounds like it would have to be packed tight so as not to mix with the powder and dilute it. Maybe the ease of improper use was why it's use died out. It wasn't mixed with the powder as a filler, was it?

 

[Jim Watson]

Nope.
If you just must use a case filler you must use enough for the whole mess to be compressed to prevent mixing.
A friend uses Grex in straight cases like .450 BPE and .45-90.

Another friend tried light loads of Ball C2 with no filler and had awful velocity variations.

Ross Seyfried has some interesting thoughts on case fillers. He does not use a "tuft" of Dacron over his Nitro for Black loads, he crams in a LOT of fibre filler so there can be no shifting or migration.

There is a product offered specifically as a case filler and "rated" for bottleneck cartridges.
Puff-Lon
http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html

I had a sample of it years ago and while it did not improve the load I tried it over, it didn't ring my chamber, either.
Might be worth a look.

 

[ReloaderFred]

What Jim says is correct. Enough Super Grex is added to compose a compressed load, which holds everything in place.

I use it for smokeless powder loads in my .45-120 Sharps, which allows me to shoot a 420 gr. cast bullet at an average of 2,200 fps, without leading. With 65 grains of powder, and 12 grains of Super Grex, the column is compressed enough that nothing moves in the 3.25" long case. I also have a hot .41 Magnum load using a plain base cast 220 gr. bullet that I worked up with Super Grex that also works without leading. Not only does the Grex hold the powder in place, but it also forms a soft gas check when the round goes off.

One thing to consider is any time you develop a load with a filler, it has to be done from the outset with the filler. You don't just add the filler to an existing load. If you do, you risk raising pressures drastically. It's basically like working up any other load, only it's one more component of the workup.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[spitballer]

Okay guys thanks I have a much better understanding of what I need to achieve here. With such a small space to fill I'm convinced that the weight of a filler like grits will be worth the compression it provides. Also, big thanks for links to products, especially the one that goes out on a limb to suggest compatibility with duplex loads - okay then, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, too, here's the deal: I need to reduce an irregular triplex load to around 26.7 grains, which will leave me somewhere in the shoulder area for a starting velocity of around 3075 fps. The purpose of all this extra work is to try and establish a sustainable fouling cycle with this particular bbl. Again some of our resident experts' comments regarding irregularities in the rifling have become much more coherent now that I have a better understanding of the fouling cycle. FWIW I enjoy tackling and solving problems but if I had it to do over again I would have given a little more thought to rifling specifications! Sincere thanks for constructive posts.

 

[Jim Watson]

I would not put a hard grain like grits in a bottleneck case.

Triplex load? Wow, you are way ahead of me. A little smokeless under black duplex is about as wild as I ever got.

Odd rifling specs? Do tell more, don't leave us hanging with only one little corner of the project.

 

[spitballer]

Odd rifling specs? Do tell more...

I'll give a brief rundown but I'll not test our moderator's patience with continued references to duplexing, triplexing, etc.

Okay this rifle started out as a Rem 70 ADL varmint in .223. After many thousands of rounds I replaced the barrel and had the bolt squared. Being old-fashioned I've always believed that a target rifle should have as long and heavy a barrel as can be managed, so I went with a straight 30". The barrel mfr did suggest that 30" was rather long for a .223 case, and in addition I did not get the super match grade bore honing with this barrel. Nevertheless, when this 12" twist barrel was new I consistently got 1/2 moa 5-shot groups at 200, sometimes 300, and even once at 400 yds in a light breeze with a simple 26.7 grain load of H414. No problem. The 55 grainers flew at an average 3025 fps. No problem. I followed the break-in regimen religiously, and afterwards very seldom shot more than 5 rounds before a swabbing with sweet's. I still don't. I've never used a wire brush with this barrel, either. End result is the bore is very, very smooth with a brownish glaze, presumably copper or Teflon (rem oil) or both.

But as the barrel has smoothed out, the H414 no longer works it's magic. I'm no rocket scientist but I suspect that it's similar to the effect of glazed pistons in an internal combustion engine: more difficult to get an enduring seal. However, I'm smart enough to know that powder fouling can do an excellent job of sealing a rifle bore in the same way that motor oil continues to seal a smooth cylinder - if it's managed correctly and it's not pushed too hard - and therein lies the challenge, in a nutshell. It seems to me what I need is a pressure curve that's long, low, squared, and ends as abruptly as possible. Difficult to do with a single powder and no muzzle brake. Also, when the bullet finally does exit the fouling it's gonna be buffeted by some mighty fast moving gases, so any irregularities in the rifling (worth spending a few bucks here) are likely to throw it out-of-balance and cause muzzle upset.

At least this is my take on it.

At the same time I'm not too proud to take advice, and at the moment I'm sorely tempted to just pick up a can of Varget and use those 64 grain Bergers that have been laying around collecting dust along with the CCI #400's. They might just be a better match for the 12" twist. But it still irks me that I can't get a handle on the 55's any more, and you can bet I'll continue to try and unravel this puzzle, even if it's just a few shots at a time.

I'm unlikely to use plastic or grits for wadding, however. Probably go with cotton.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I believe you are going backwards up a steep slippery hill.
Your barrel is heavily fouled from residue from the incomplete combustion and perhaps some copper.
I believe switching to a suitable bullet and powder following a good cleaning will do wonders for your accuracy.
Try some Midsouth varmint nightmare 55gr Hollow Point ($48/500), and 26.9-27.0gr of BLC2 or 25.0gr of H335 or TAC. One of those, most likely the BLC2 will give you what you are looking for.

I recently acquired a CZ527 American in .222Rem that was said to be "shot out". Perhaps 1,000rds through it. I smiled and bought a "project" Following a rigorous cleaning using a .22cal bore brush wrapped with a patch and first a copper solvent followed by JB Bore paste cleaner, I loaded some Hornady 53 gr HP's in well used cases, over 21.3gr RL10 and Tula SRP's at Hornady's specified oal. 4 in one hole, fifth opened group to .55" ctc.

Barrel is marked 1/14" but actual measurement is closer to 16.75" twist! It shoots about 1moa with Winchester factory 50gr Spt, which is the best I've ever seen it shot.
Previous owner was trying to force it to shoot groups with 55gr FMJBT and slower ball powders.
Just ain't gonna happen!

I had an aquaintance who was trying to get a SAKO 75 in 6mmPPC to shoot 100gr Sierra BT's and IMR 4350. He was cursing everybody from SAKO, to local shop that told him that was a great combination in the 6mm (Remington!). It is, given a 1/9.5" twist bbl.

I took the time to illuminate him as to the particulars of his rifle and cart.
A box of Berger 70gr HP's, and some H322, with me prepping his cases, following a similar cleaning, He was showing off 5-shot groups in the high 2's and low 3's. He thought I was some kind of genius. (Not!, but I did read an article by Walt Berger in a Gun World magazine annual edition on how the 'bench resters' do it...) just monkey see, monkey do!
Just don't smoke those ' loaded cigars ' you're rolling (i.e. Triplex loads).

Forget cotton, P.O Ackley and Elmer Keith damaged enough guns to warn against it. Use Dacron pillow stuffing if you insist on trying anyway. It's listed as an ingredient in the smokeless powder. (Binding agent). It is consumed in the combustion of the powder, and leaves little more residue than usual powders in typical loadings. You are trying to re-invent the wheel. With tools ill suited to purpose.