CQB45ACP
Member
To me your shooting spot is a paradise.
Groups, Accuracy, and Statistics
- Thread starter HowieG
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Definitely a great spot.
The leaders of our society, that is the inprint gunwriters, use three shot groups because the public accepts them as valid tests of accuracy. Which they are not. Gunwriters are paid a flat fee, according to DPris, $400 per article, and it is not in their financial interest to shoot too many expensive bullets! And, the less rounds are put down range, the less the chance of discovering the thunderstick in question don't shoot straight. That would affect advertising, and these periodicals make their profit through advertising. The subscription price is more or less, earnest money, and this has been the business model since the Ladies Home Journal of the 1880's.
If you really want to find out if the load is good, you have to get the round count up. I test cast bullet loads in my Marlin, and decided that "acceptable accuracy was to be found less than 1500 fps.
groups fell apart at 1600 fps
it turns out the first group was a statistical abnormally. This rifle does not shoot cast bullets worth a damn at any velocity. I had to get the round count up!
Group size and confidence is a hot topic among small bore prone shooters. I asked the number three guy in the Nation, at a Smallbore National Match, how many rounds does it take for him to have confidence in his ammunition. And he said a brick. (500 rounds) His rifle had been lot tested 90 times, and these lot tests are typically forty round groups, but you know, forty rounds does not reveal everything. And I agree, even with lot tested ammunition, until you get the round count up, you really don't know if lot tested ammunition is the stuff. I purchased a case of Eley Edge based on lot testing, and while the lot test indicated it was great stuff, it is not really great. My X counts are not as high as with other ammunition. It is good, but not great, and it took more than a brick to finally shake off the emotional high of the lot acceptance test, and realize what I was seeing on paper was real.
If you really want to find out if the load is good, you have to get the round count up. I test cast bullet loads in my Marlin, and decided that "acceptable accuracy was to be found less than 1500 fps.
groups fell apart at 1600 fps
it turns out the first group was a statistical abnormally. This rifle does not shoot cast bullets worth a damn at any velocity. I had to get the round count up!
Group size and confidence is a hot topic among small bore prone shooters. I asked the number three guy in the Nation, at a Smallbore National Match, how many rounds does it take for him to have confidence in his ammunition. And he said a brick. (500 rounds) His rifle had been lot tested 90 times, and these lot tests are typically forty round groups, but you know, forty rounds does not reveal everything. And I agree, even with lot tested ammunition, until you get the round count up, you really don't know if lot tested ammunition is the stuff. I purchased a case of Eley Edge based on lot testing, and while the lot test indicated it was great stuff, it is not really great. My X counts are not as high as with other ammunition. It is good, but not great, and it took more than a brick to finally shake off the emotional high of the lot acceptance test, and realize what I was seeing on paper was real.
JFrank
Member
Good research” although we might want to look into the automotive history a bit more on another thread.Since you’re discussing precision of various types, let me quibble with your use of the terms “souped up factory hot rod.” A hot rod does not come from the factory. A hot rod results from a factory stock car being souped up. Souping up a hot rod would be redundant.I just wanted to contribute to this amazing thread
Here’s a couple just to get the party started.
Chevele SS 396 /427
Ford Mach 1 428 CJ
Hemi cuda
fxvr5
Member
- Joined
- May 26, 2017
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People interested in round count and accuracy might find these articles of interest;
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group/
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2021/2/17/accuracy-testing-how-many-shots-in-the-group
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group/
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2021/2/17/accuracy-testing-how-many-shots-in-the-group
Seedy Character
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- Sep 6, 2021
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- 2,064
CQB45ACP
Member
So was the Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt for example. Still, I’m old school (and old) and the term hot rod was back in the 50s & 60s almost universally applied to cars that were modified not by the factory or even dealer, but by the owner. And here I promote a topic not at all associated with reloading, sorry.
Well, I wrote that at 11:23 AM so it was a bit early for me. Probably gin/diet tonic if it had been cocktail time. Maybe a wee dram of whiskey.
fxvr5
Member
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- May 26, 2017
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- 3,270
This article does not fit your claim;
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/1/18/38-different-9mm-loads
The neat thing about a forum is you can just pass over the stuff you don't agree with......or not depending on your mood. It all works.
You would have liked to have been with me yesterday then. I was kicking around one of my favorite haunts. Bosque del Apache NWR. They have signs up that say roughly, "THIS IS LION COUNTRY. IF YOU ENCOUNTER ONE, DO NOT RUN....."
Home - Bosque del Apache - U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (fws.gov)
CQB45ACP
Member
Holy mackerel! For a suburbanite my whole life, that’s hard to imagine. (Both the lion and not running)
It's actually wild out here still. View attachment 1053981 View attachment 1053982 View attachment 1053983
CQB45ACP
Member
God’s country! I used to travel on business to DOE facilities and drive my rental into the ground—actually blew one up driving up Sandia peak. For some reason Wagon Mound captured my imagination as a retirement spot.
Use to be an old lady up there in a cafe who made pie crust every bit as good as my grandmother's, which is to say the best on the planet. Yeah, I could retire in Wagon Mound, or Springer, or Cimarron, or Chama. Or I could stay right here on my front porch.
View attachment 1053991
I would like to see more 50 shot groups. Can you find more tests, from the in print crowd, with shot counts that high? Or is this an except, perhaps by a fan who had a lot of money to burn?
At least they did it in a Ransom. I see tests were a guy fires off 5 groups by hand and says, "See? More accurate." Not statistically reliable......
CQB45ACP
Member
OMG!
I couldn't live where you do. That five feet to the nearest tree stuff makes me suicidal. Not to mention the traffic.
When you get ready to retire, here is a restorable up by Wagon Mound for you.
View attachment 1054021
3 round groups certainly can be statistically significant. If you fire twenty 3 round groups and stack them, they will be just as significant as firing one 60 round group. Firing five 3 round groups though, certainly doesn't equal five 5 round groups, which doesn't equal five 10 round groups. The problem with high round counts for high confidence is that you will wear out your barrel and have to start over before too long, and you just may go broke. The trick as I see it is to cut your confidence down to realistic levels for home use. It's easy to say you want 99% confidence, but it's not realistic to attain it.
Another thing 3 round groups are effective for is checking for group drift. Measure each group from POA. Is the group center drifting around in relation to POA? If so, you may have a problem. Or the wind may have changed direction.
I have noted on occasion, that I might just go out one day and be putting the groups just slightly left. Two days later, I may be putting them just slightly right. Shooter variation based on the light, wind, temp, hangover, etc. For a very long time, this would drive my OCD crazy, but I got over it with enough years without even taking any special medication.
I have noted on occasion, that I might just go out one day and be putting the groups just slightly left. Two days later, I may be putting them just slightly right. Shooter variation based on the light, wind, temp, hangover, etc. For a very long time, this would drive my OCD crazy, but I got over it with enough years without even taking any special medication.
I could have done better on the picture. Quartered to the right a bit and framed the mountain more. Sierra Ladrones, 9,186 feet.
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