CQB45ACP
Member
Hmm, wagon ruts on the Santa Fe trail? Just kidding, but from space the ruts of the main trail and cimmaron cut off are visible running parallel to I-25 (or vice versa). “Don’t pave the cow path”
Groups, Accuracy, and Statistics
- Thread starter HowieG
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Actually, the wagon ruts of the Santa Fe trail are plainly visible on the ground. Keeping in a shooting vein, the wagon tracks go through NRA Whittington Center near Raton, NM.
CQB45ACP
Member
Yes I’ve seen them on the ground—had to pull off on shoulder first time I realized what they were. I’d love to go to Whittington but doubt it’ll happen.
Why do you doubt it will happen? You know how to get to New Mexico obviously. I went there on special invitation to metal detect the ghost town of Van Houten on the Center's grounds. Here are some thumbs including Pronghorn on the David Tubbs range (yeah, they named one after him), a Whittington Mule deer buck, and the Van Houten mule barn.
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Well, if you have your small bore rifle lot tested by Eley or Lapua, their computer system does composite groups. Both of these companies have wind tunnels. And, they pile on the groups to achieve 40 shot composite groups. I think that is because each small bore "match" is 40 rounds. A 120 round match is three of these, typically the Dewar, which is 20 shots 50 yards, 20 shot 100 yards. Then 40 shots 100 yards, and back to 50 meters for 40 shots.
this is a National champ, 20 shots, prone with sling, irons at 50 yards. We shot two of these targets before going into the Dewar, for it was a 160 round match.
There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. Therefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.
As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%.
This is another good article on the limitations of five shot groups
Accuracy Testing: Shortcomings Of The Five-Shot Group
by Brad Miller, Ph.D. - Wednesday, September 25, 2019
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group
one that addresses statistics for accuracy.
Shot Group Statistics for Small Arms Applications
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1034885.pdf
you may have to go to the main DTIC web site and then find it, as Government web sites are consistently changing and churning.
I do consider the inprint crowd trick of firing three, three shot groups and taking an average to be a bogus measurement of accuracy. Averages tend to make the numbers smaller, and that is what everyone wants, right? And, because they shoot three shot groups, I constantly see reoirted half MOA cast bullet groups for 30-30 lever actions. I suspect you don't see many 30-30 lever actions on the F class firing lines, do you? Would never know those things are not capable of winning an F Class championship by what is reported in the periodicals. And readers take these numbers seriously. If however you are a competitive shooter, what counts is what goes in the middle.
My F Class buds, their barrels don't last long enough to conduct extensive load development. A bud of mine, shot 400 rounds locally before going to Whittington for the F Class Nationals. Before he had completed all the individual and team matches, his barrel wore out. It was around 1000 rounds. I looked up his scores, he did very well and then, one day, he was just above the DNR shooters. His bullets were keyholing. He said "the match winner had over 2000 rounds through his barrel!"
Well, the match winner had a barrel that by chance, came from a different end of the billet. Bud only fires the smallest number of rounds to sight in his scope, and give himself confidence that the rifle likes his loads. Love your pictures of New Mexico. Truly the Land of Enchantment. I swear I could see Australia, just on the horizon, from the top of Sandia Peak
Lots of history in New Mexico
Quarai Pueblo Mission
Well, if you have your small bore rifle lot tested by Eley or Lapua, their computer system does composite groups. Both of these companies have wind tunnels. And, they pile on the groups to achieve 40 shot composite groups. I think that is because each small bore "match" is 40 rounds. A 120 round match is three of these, typically the Dewar, which is 20 shots 50 yards, 20 shot 100 yards. Then 40 shots 100 yards, and back to 50 meters for 40 shots.
this is a National champ, 20 shots, prone with sling, irons at 50 yards. We shot two of these targets before going into the Dewar, for it was a 160 round match.
View attachment 1054145
There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. Therefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.
As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%.
This is another good article on the limitations of five shot groups
Accuracy Testing: Shortcomings Of The Five-Shot Group
by Brad Miller, Ph.D. - Wednesday, September 25, 2019
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group
one that addresses statistics for accuracy.
Shot Group Statistics for Small Arms Applications
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1034885.pdf
you may have to go to the main DTIC web site and then find it, as Government web sites are consistently changing and churning.
I do consider the inprint crowd trick of firing three, three shot groups and taking an average to be a bogus measurement of accuracy. Averages tend to make the numbers smaller, and that is what everyone wants, right? And, because they shoot three shot groups, I constantly see reoirted half MOA cast bullet groups for 30-30 lever actions. I suspect you don't see many 30-30 lever actions on the F class firing lines, do you? Would never know those things are not capable of winning an F Class championship by what is reported in the periodicals. And readers take these numbers seriously. If however you are a competitive shooter, what counts is what goes in the middle.
My F Class buds, their barrels don't last long enough to conduct extensive load development. A bud of mine, shot 400 rounds locally before going to Whittington for the F Class Nationals. Before he had completed all the individual and team matches, his barrel wore out. It was around 1000 rounds. I looked up his scores, he did very well and then, one day, he was just above the DNR shooters. His bullets were keyholing. He said "the match winner had over 2000 rounds through his barrel!"
Love your pictures of New Mexico. Truly the Land of Enchantment. I swear I could see Australia, just on the horizon, from the top of Sandia Peak
Well, recently you had to pick your day to see Australia between the California fires.
CQB45ACP
Member
You guys are killing me with these pictures. But I do have to say, I need spring’s rebirth here on the east coast and a simple oyster roast in the fall on Chesapeake Bay.Well, if you have your small bore rifle lot tested by Eley or Lapua, their computer system does composite groups. Both of these companies have wind tunnels. And, they pile on the groups to achieve 40 shot composite groups. I think that is because each small bore "match" is 40 rounds. A 120 round match is three of these, typically the Dewar, which is 20 shots 50 yards, 20 shot 100 yards. Then 40 shots 100 yards, and back to 50 meters for 40 shots.
this is a National champ, 20 shots, prone with sling, irons at 50 yards. We shot two of these targets before going into the Dewar, for it was a 160 round match.
View attachment 1054145
There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. Therefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.
As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%.
This is another good article on the limitations of five shot groups
Accuracy Testing: Shortcomings Of The Five-Shot Group
by Brad Miller, Ph.D. - Wednesday, September 25, 2019
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group
one that addresses statistics for accuracy.
Shot Group Statistics for Small Arms Applications
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1034885.pdf
you may have to go to the main DTIC web site and then find it, as Government web sites are consistently changing and churning.
I do consider the inprint crowd trick of firing three, three shot groups and taking an average to be a bogus measurement of accuracy. Averages tend to make the numbers smaller, and that is what everyone wants, right? And, because they shoot three shot groups, I constantly see reoirted half MOA cast bullet groups for 30-30 lever actions. I suspect you don't see many 30-30 lever actions on the F class firing lines, do you? Would never know those things are not capable of winning an F Class championship by what is reported in the periodicals. And readers take these numbers seriously. If however you are a competitive shooter, what counts is what goes in the middle.
My F Class buds, their barrels don't last long enough to conduct extensive load development. A bud of mine, shot 400 rounds locally before going to Whittington for the F Class Nationals. Before he had completed all the individual and team matches, his barrel wore out. It was around 1000 rounds. I looked up his scores, he did very well and then, one day, he was just above the DNR shooters. His bullets were keyholing. He said "the match winner had over 2000 rounds through his barrel!"
Love your pictures of New Mexico. Truly the Land of Enchantment. I swear I could see Australia, just on the horizon, from the top of Sandia Peak
View attachment 1054146
Lots of history in New Mexico
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Quarai Pueblo Mission
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CQB45ACP
Member
Post 9/11 the only air travel was demanded by my boss. Now retired, I don’t fly.
I find this compelling though.
I know many think we don't have roads and that we require a passport for entry because we are not part of the U.S. Neither is actually true.
Whittington also offers guided hunts if you have 5 to 10 GRAND sitting around useless. It's just a little out of my price range.
CQB45ACP
Member
That is steep but a guided duck or goose hunt on the eastern shore here is a joy and for $10K I’d expect amazement.I know many think we don't have roads and that we require a passport for entry because we are not part of the U.S. Neither is actually true.
Whittington also offers guided hunts if you have 5 to 10 GRAND sitting around useless. It's just a little out of my price range.
They say their success rates are nearly 100%. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not.
Oh yeah, I could go for some oysters. Or some crawfish.
CQB45ACP
Member
You are freaking killing me.
One more for the Santa Fe trail. This was the protector of the trail, Fort Union, 1851-1891.
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CQB45ACP
Member
Beautiful, been there. “Rattlesnakes. Keep to path” is what the signs say I think. Also If memory serves, it’s where the Cimmaron Cut off and main trail converge or split depending on which direction one was traveling.
The Cimarron cutoff ran through Wagon Mound to Watrous, which is about ten miles south of the fort.
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