Groups, Accuracy, and Statistics

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HowieG said:
Yeah, absolutely blasphemous. And probably wouldn't do any good anyway.
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Can help w forend issues. Summer chucks vs winter yotes kinda thing. Plus not scratching up wood.

I think synth on a #1 to be fine. In fact i wish they made an inj molded black plastic stock set, build a stainless 35 rem in 1A config and thatd be my woods rifle.
 
Variations in testing and equip are part of reloading.

Some folks just slap ammo together for max cost savings and are happy with whatever the results are.

Some reload for performance. I have worked at two decent sized places w a fair number of shooters, a range a couple.miles from one plant.

Many people will call a rifle sub MOA if they get a 3 shot group 4 inches from the bull, one time LOL
 
AJC1 said:
I shoot 5 and 10 shot groups. Tons of load development done with 5 shots but all verifications are done with 10. I probably could do 2 or 3 shot work ups but I like to shoot and a dialed load at 1 or 300 gets pretty boring fast.
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I like to shoot too and the practice working up loads is good for me. That being said, components are kind of an issue now, so I have cut back. I still plan on 10 round ladders, but groups after that will be three or four rounds until I really need to verify.
 
Hookeye said:
Variations in testing and equip are part of reloading.

Some folks just slap ammo together for max cost savings and are happy with whatever the results are.

Some reload for performance. I have worked at two decent sized places w a fair number of shooters, a range a couple.miles from one plant.

Many people will call a rifle sub MOA if they get a 3 shot group 4 inches from the bull, one time LOL
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I guess they could call it a transient sub MOA. :) I guess that beats not ever having a sub MOA at all.
 
It depends on what you're measuring, and what you're going to do with the rifle. A 3 shot group tells me what I need to know about the load. A 5 shot group tells me a little more about the rifle. Ten shots tell me about the shooter.

I'm primarily a hunter who likes to shoot informally at my firing range. I'm most interested in my 1st shot and how far it lands from the aiming point. Since I'll never fire more than 2 or 3 shots at any given animal, I could care less about more than 3 shots. And ammo, even my handloads, are too expensive to use for 10 shot groups. I prefer to compare multiple 3 shot groups over a period of time and several range trips. Ten groups of 3 shots tell me more than six groups of 5 shots or two groups of 15 shots all on the same day.

Going to 5 or more shots in one string allows the barrel to heat up and keeping concentration for more shots becomes more problematic. Issues I'll never have to deal with. If I were using my rifle for competition that required more than 3 shots, then that is how I'd practice and the benchmark I'd use. As long as the criteria is spelled out, I don't think it matters. The number of shots fired and at what range should be included in any discussion. And it matters not if you're talking about 3 shots, or 30 shots as long as.

I use 3 shot groups as my benchmark and make no apologies for it.
 
jmr40 said:
It depends on what you're measuring, and what you're going to do with the rifle. A 3 shot group tells me what I need to know about the load. A 5 shot group tells me a little more about the rifle. Ten shots tell me about the shooter.

I'm primarily a hunter who likes to shoot informally at my firing range. I'm most interested in my 1st shot and how far it lands from the aiming point. Since I'll never fire more than 2 or 3 shots at any given animal, I could care less about more than 3 shots. And ammo, even my handloads, are too expensive to use for 10 shot groups. I prefer to compare multiple 3 shot groups over a period of time and several range trips. Ten groups of 3 shots tell me more than six groups of 5 shots or two groups of 15 shots all on the same day.

Going to 5 or more shots in one string allows the barrel to heat up and keeping concentration for more shots becomes more problematic. Issues I'll never have to deal with. If I were using my rifle for competition that required more than 3 shots, then that is how I'd practice and the benchmark I'd use. As long as the criteria is spelled out, I don't think it matters. The number of shots fired and at what range should be included in any discussion. And it matters not if you're talking about 3 shots, or 30 shots as long as.

I use 3 shot groups as my benchmark and make no apologies for it.
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I have certainly been know to shoot threes. Certain rifles demand it. My 405 Winchester Ruger #1 is a 3 round group shooter mainly because the shooter can't handle more. I have a little pencil barreled .223 that likes threes and tends to open up with fives. My heavy barrel KHornet, on the other hand, doesn't care. 50 rounds barely warms the barrel up.

I like to shoot threes for sight in. A three round group is plenty for that.
 
mcb said:
I was speaking in generalities. It is typical easier to adjust sights to make a precise firearm also accurate on an overwhelming number of firearms, especially rifles. It is typical harder and more time consuming to do the work required to tighten groups on a imprecise firearm. There are exception to both.

And if the gun is precise but not accurate you can still be accurate with it.

My woods revolvers is often a S&W model 10, it shoots slightly left, it has fixed sights. I know it shoots this way and use a sight picture to compensate for this and put the bullets were I needed them.

I got to my first 3-gun match after a cross country move where my scope had been unmounted and remounted the QD mounts did not return to zero as expected and I did not get a chance to check zero. The rifle was shooting ~8-inches to the right at about 80 yards. I figure that out on the clock on the first stage (that poor tree beside that first target) shot the rest of the match holding left and still managed a top five finish since the precision was there and I knew (the hard way) how far off the sights were and compensated for it. Had the rifle suddenly started shooting 4 MOA even if that group was centered on my point of aim I would not have done as well as I did. It also would have been much harder, in the middle of the stage, to try things to tighten up the groups than it was to compensate for sights that were off.

In my experience precision almost always take more effort/money than accuracy.

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Kentucky windage may let you adjust for a lack of precision, but is not optimal for either precision or accuracy.

Adjustment is not typically easy. Many handguns have fixed sights. Many rifles have no sights. Not all adjustable sights are precise.

Accuracy and precision both improve with high quality sights. Which has a tendency to be expensive. As do action jobs, trigger jobs, barrels, and all work done.

The determining factor is the shooter's level of acceptibilty.
A '94 Winchester's .30-30 shooting open sights; 4" groups is good. 2" groups is excellent
A benchrest shooter would be appalled at 1" groups.
Minute of Deer is good enough for some.
3 gun hitting a 6" gong is a hit and acceptable.
 
Seedy Character said:
Kentucky windage may let you adjust for a lack of precision, but is not optimal for either precision or accuracy.

Adjustment is not typically easy. Many handguns have fixed sights. Many rifles have no sights. Not all adjustable sights are precise.

Accuracy and precision both improve with high quality sights. Which has a tendency to be expensive. As do action jobs, trigger jobs, barrels, and all work done.

The determining factor is the shooter's level of acceptibilty.
A '94 Winchester's .30-30 shooting open sights; 4" groups is good. 2" groups is excellent
A benchrest shooter would be appalled at 1" groups.
Minute of Deer is good enough for some.
3 gun hitting a 6" gong is a hit and acceptable.
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I suspect you own a very different collection of firearms than I do.

Most of my rifles have scopes and those are exceeding easy to adjust to put the point of impact in the desired location with respect to point of aim. Several of my rifle have scopes with exposed turrets and I will adjust the elevation and windage between and even dynamically during stages at some shooting matches. None of my rifles have fixed sights. The most challenging is few rifles that have iron sights that have elevation adjustment and the windage must be adjusted by drifting the front or rear sight in their dovetail but most of my iron sighted rifles most have both windage and elevation adjustment integrated in the sights

My handguns are about 50/50 split between those with fully adjustable sights and fixed sights (no optics on my handguns, yet). Most of those that are fixed sighted handguns can still be drift adjust for windage and Kentucky-windage has worked well for me on those that can't be drifted.

In my own experience I have spent far more time working up and testing loads or doing other work on firearms to aid precision than I have ever spent sighting in a firearm to shoot accurately.

YMMV.
 
mcb said:
I suspect you own a very different collection of firearms than I do.

Most of my rifles have scopes and those are exceeding easy to adjust to put the point of impact in the desired location with respect to point of aim. Several of my rifle have scopes with exposed turrets and I will adjust the elevation and windage between and even dynamically during stages at some shooting matches. None of my rifles have fixed sights. The most challenging is few rifles that have iron sights that have elevation adjustment and the windage must be adjusted by drifting the front or rear sight in their dovetail but most of my iron sighted rifles most have both windage and elevation adjustment integrated in the sights

My handguns are about 50/50 split between those with fully adjustable sights and fixed sights (no optics on my handguns, yet). Most of those that are fixed sighted handguns can still be drift adjust for windage and Kentucky-windage has worked well for me on those that can't be drifted.

In my own experience I have spent far more time working up and testing loads or doing other work on firearms to aid precision than I have ever spent sighting in a firearm to shoot accurately.

YMMV.
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A precision rifle, with a high dollar scope, set up for 1000 yards; is very unlikely to have enough adjustment to allow bullseye POI at 100, 200, even 300 yards. Making said rifle not precise

Both precision and accuracy fall into relativity and personal acceptance.


A magazine (I forget which one) conducted a test (mid '70s)
They took a Ransom Rest and set up a Colt Gold Cup National Matches to compare with a Government Model.

Surprise, the 2 shot very similar groups (3 different loads for 3 groups of 8 shot groups, 1 on chamber and 7 round mag), though the National Match was better.

Then, they had 5 shooters shoot both guns.
The National Match groups were slightly bigger.
The Government Model groups were up to twice the size.

National Match has precision sights, fine adjustment.
Government Model basic, somewhat crude, fixed sights. Drift tear sight for windage.

Locked in a mount, very similar precision.
Shooters, better sights = better precision and better accuracy.
Cost of Golden Cup is double a Government Model and precision of guns as similar.
In REAL WORLD, precision USEABLE and OBTAINABLE by the shooter's, costs money.
 
I had one Ruger 243 B that would shoot well for a couple shots but then heat up

If I let it cool between shots it was very good. Speer 75s on 4895. Not the most zippy iirc. But 26 inch bbl helped.

My stinkin little RSI was shot w no real wait and i couldnt even see the freakin holes at 75 yards. Figured it was tossing em everywhere. Only a 4x. Went down and there they were, in the black magic marker dot in a cloverleaf.

Yeah. Like an idiot I sold it.

The B opened up yrs later w throat erosion and I didnt have the coin for a rebarrel. So away it went.

Got a BDL that shot 2" w factory ammo.
Removed pad and it was 1.5". Buddy gave me some 85 gr reloads and it was an inch.

Full bedding job and handload development....and it was my best 700. But it was a shiny thing and i dumped it for a matte ADL that got bedded, sams load was almost as good in it.

4 into .33, 5th open to .5

Did that back to back.

Guy that bought it wont sell it LOL
 
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I should test my .22 250 to see of forend pressure has changed w the season and affected group and POI.

Also, last yote hunt I took my least accurate rifle. My 760 in .35 rem. Its a joy to carry and w 2-7x pretty handy, figured anything within 150 was toast.

Of course my calling skills never put the rifle into play LOL

For a big game rifle sub MOA may not be needed. But confidence can help and small groups build confidence.

My current deer spot the shots arent far and dang near any rifle or slug gun should work very well.
 
mcb said:
I personally am a fan of 5-shot groups. Statistically 7-10 shots probably results in better math but from the shooters perspective 5-shots is better due to shooter focus and consistency. It also divides nicely into standard boxes of ammo for those with OCD :p. I also do not judge a rifle on one group but several groups, three to five, 5-shot groups assuming they are relatively similar in performance is usually sufficient to give me a good idea of what that combination of rifle and ammo is capable of. I try my best to not over analyze it too.
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Yep.
 
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Seedy Character said:
A precision rifle, with a high dollar scope, set up for 1000 yards; is very unlikely to have enough adjustment to allow bullseye POI at 100, 200, even 300 yards. Making said rifle not precise
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In PRS we sight in our rifles at 100 yards and shoot to 1200 plus using a 20 MOA rail. Of course some scopes do not have enough elevation built in to do that, but then we don't use those.
 
A good friend had a Mold in sniper rifle.
Has the tang mounted fernier sight.
It shoots some great groups at 100 and 200 yards.
We were at a range that had gongs out to 1000 yards.
He raises his sight to 1000. We remind him that is meters, not yards.
He shoots, we wait, wait, wait, "ping"

He hollers, "I hit it, is actually hit it"

The spotter tells him "you hit the 700 yard target, you are 56' low"

Accurate, not precise. No adjustment
 
Ill do 5 shots from my #1 in .22 250 to test.
Let it cool between shots.

My .219 DW will be checked w a 3 shot group. i dont have but 80 rounds left for it.
I didnt load them, have dies, but havent built a bench at current location yet ( sucks when you buy a house without a basement LOL ).
 
My eyes aint like they used to be. My shoulder neck and arm are beat up.
So I was lleasany surprised when I took my dads old beat up #1 to the range and dropped some Norma 55gr stuff ( wooden looking graphic exterior ).

I put 5 into .75 off a bipod and rear bag.

Dunno if a fluke or of the old gal still has a decent bbl. Do remember his last shooting of it w handloads was not that good ( decade plus back ).

It was non functional old oils gummed.
I just cleaned it, fired a couple foulers and shot a group. Was not displeased.

Will probably have the bbl.scoped by Penrod Precision and see what he thinks.
Pendleton stock and a new stainless bbl in .243 might happen.

Now I cleaned it for storage after last shoot so will run a patch or two of gun scrubber to remove oil, and then fire a couple foulers and then go for group.

Think forend screw was set at 20 in lbs.
30 degrees and no wind and Ill take er out and see how bad I do. Will report back, whatever i get LOL
 
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I've been working my way through the statistics articles over at PRB using the link provided by AFDoc up near the beginning (post 6). That is some good stuff. I would recommend it to anybody here who has an interest that way. Using the tools there, you might just maybe kind of predict the future a little bit depending on how much confidence you desire in the answers. A higher level of confidence requires a larger sample requires more time and money. As they said in Heinlein's The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch).
 
I’m very interested in both accuracy and precision, rarely achieved my objectives, but am having fun trying.

Seedy Character said:
The spotter tells him "you hit the 700 yard target, you are 56' low"

Accurate, not precise. No adjustment
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I learned accuracy is how close to your intended mark you hit, that is POI = POA. If that’s the case, this one shot is not accurate.
Precision is the statistical variability of hitting that mark, that is group size. I don’t believe you can say anything about precision at 1000 yards with one shot. In other words, your precision measurement at 100 yards cannot be inferred at 1000 yards. Of course, I stand to be corrected.
 
100 yard precision has very little correlation to 1000 yards or any other yardage.

The accuracy will be relative.

The bullet and how it reacts to the rifling, barrel and gun affects the precision.

I worked up a load in 7 mag, using a 150 gr Nosier HP. It shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100 yards.
At 200 yards the groups opened up to 5" and some bullets hit sideways.
Switched to Hornady 140gr. BT, 1 1/2" @ 100 yards. But, 2" @ 200 yards and 2 1/2" @ 300 yards.
THAT rifle liked that bullet, at that load.

Targets on a line, at 100 yards increments. Aiming at 1000 yards target and hitting 700 yard target. Rifle is "accurate", on line with 1000 yard. Shooter is capable. Rifle's fault? Yes. Maybe.
The sights are marked 1000, but regulated to 700. A different ammo, higher velocity, lighter bullets, will move POI. Otherwise, no sights adjustment.

Part of the fun. Know your gun. Know your ammo. Know your capabilities.
 
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