Guess What Fellas? I'm Not Buying An AR in 5.56. I'm Holding Out for A 6.8 SPC

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JQP

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I was always ambivalent about the M16/AR15 series for two reasons:

1) I never warmed to the cartridge. Yes, it was extremely accurate, but it was not as effective in anything in ideal environments as far older and far more hard hitting rounds fielded by the U.S. Military.

2) I never warmed to the gas impingement system of the AR given the other design aspects of the platform. C'mon, even the most ardent AR fans should admit that you do have to keep these weapons very clean and that breakage of many parts is common, and while this may be fine for a range 'queen,' it's not exactly the best set of attributes for what is need as a grunt's primary rifle. The M1, M14 best the AR in reliability and cartridge, and the AK47 absolutely bests it in reliability and robustness (and the newer Russian made RPK receiver AKs close the gap somewhat on accuracy).

Before you flame me for beating what is a very dead horse, consider a few things.

My opinions are just that, but no one can legitimately deny that the AR series has shortcomings that are definitive, as does the 5.56 cartridge. Obviously, every cartridge designed and used is by definition a set of compromises from the concept stage forward, but in terms of its intended purpose, the 5.56 was not anywhere near the best we've fielded, let alone ideal.

Also, the 6.8 SPC is probably has the best chance of being adopted by the U.S. Military sooner rather than later, as its ballistics are outstanding, and this is backed up by the fact that early adopters of the cartridge such as the L.A. SWAT Unit attest that the test result don't lie in terms of real world performance.

Now, as to point 2 above, does anyone think that the universal adopted standard for the 6.8 SPC may be a piston driven one?


So, if one accepts these premises, and doesn't need to get a rifle chambered in 5.56 now, why not wait and get what's most likely to be a superior performer?
 
The dogma that an AR-15 must be cleaned thoroughly and often has been disproven over and over again. Conclusions that use that as an assumption will be flawed. Whether or not someone likes or dislikes direct gas impingement in the AR-15, it works well and is not a cause of reliability problems.

I would also question the assumption that the military will be changing the primary assault rifle cartridge it uses anytime on the horizon. Six years after 6.8 SPC was introduced, we're seeing the USMC adopt new 5.56 ammunition.
 
but in terms of its intended purpose, the 5.56 was not anywhere near the best we've fielded, let alone ideal.

actually for its intended purpose,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, (being humped across entire continents, in quantities that basically triple what was previously possible, and being a devestating stopper by virtue of fragging tha crap outs bad guys chest cavities for 50years and counting)

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, its tough to beat.
 
I suppose if you haven't warmed to the cartridge or design in the last 50 years it's unlikely to start appealing to you any time soon. However, the contentions that 5.56mm lacks the thump to kill folks deader than fried chicken or that the M16/M4 is particularly finicky are both pretty flawed.
 
Well, your opinion about the AR is wrong and piston guns have their own issues. If a 6.8 is what you want, go with it. I hope you make lots of money if you plan to shoot it.

Personally, I'd rather face a guy with a 6.8 that has had no practice with it than a guy with a 5.56 that has actually gotten to shoot it more than 100 times.
 
While I like the newer calibers coming out for AR's (6.8, 6.5), I'll stick with the 5.56. It can be a very devastating round when a proper type is chosen for the intended purpose. I'm a fan of soft points and steel core. Using a 5.56 means a lot more practice for me, and I'd rather use something that I can practice with alot versus something I can only shoot once a year in bulk.

That said, I prefer a piston system. My XCR is an amazing gun, but I still like the standard DI AR-15. My first AR jammed A LOT and left a bad taste in my mouth. However, my friends BCM AR fixed my negative opinion of the DI.

Every rifle/round has its negatives and positives, but if you train with any system it will be entirely effective for you, IMHO.
 
As I understand it, recently there was a high ranking USMC general seriously considering the 6.8spc for adoption until the new 5.56 SOST round became available and showed good results.
But JQP, I agonized over this very subject not too long ago and came to realize that a well-built DI AR can be very reliable. I would only ever consider an AR in a caliber more significant than the 5.56. I was seriously looking at piston driven ARs, but they are cost prohibitive for me so I decided to just trust all the raves from the DI AR fans and join the club. I only ever fired an AR shortly before purchasing mine, a friend had a Oly Arms carbine he'd just bought and wanted to check it out for the first time at the range, I was sold after that.
But I've sat down and fired several hundred rounds through mine and was pleasantly surprised when taking it down to clean it that it really wasn't as dirty as I expected and that I probably could've fired another 300 rounds before I'd ever really see anything significant if at all.
I don't know if I can contribute this to the type of powder SSA uses in their cartridges or what, but it really wasn't bad and after reading about how hot the bolt gets, I pulled it after several magazines and it wasn't as bad as some have claimed either.
I have discovered over the years, that its all well and good to research things before you jump right in, but its just as important to check things out for yourself and then make your own judgement call.
BTW I went with an RRA LAR-6.8 Mid-Length A4
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If you don't like the AR (I completely understand) but why spend more money on one chambered in a more expensive caliber? Better round or not, it ain't a cheap cartridge.
 
C'mon, even the most ardent AR fans should admit that you do have to keep these weapons very clean and that breakage of many parts is common, and while this may be fine for a range 'queen,' it's not exactly the best set of attributes for what is need as a grunt's primary rifle.
Well lubed, yes; clean, not really. Parts breakage? Not if the rifle is built to the M4 TDP (minus the NFA stuff like full auto / burst, and 14.5" bbl of course). If you don't know what the TDP is, the THR Rifle Forum Reading Library, and search function are your friends.
Also, the 6.8 SPC is probably has the best chance of being adopted by the U.S. Military sooner rather than later, as its ballistics are outstanding,
6.8 SPC doesn't do anything spectactular ballistically when compared to 5.56 MK262 Mod 0 / Mod 1. You're also a civilian, and not restricted to ball ammo. There are plenty of 75 grain and heavier 5.56mm / .224" ballistic tip projectiles now available both in factory loads, and as component bullets.
does anyone think that the universal adopted standard for the 6.8 SPC may be a piston driven one?
In the form of the FN SCAR, maybe. However, piston driver AR platform rifles are going to have carrier tilt issues, resulting from non linear carrier drive, and that's going to cause undue part wear. The gas key on a DI AR directs gas into the BCG, where the BCG then recoils in a linear fashion within the upper. If you look at Mr. Stoner's piston designs you'll see that the BCG is moved above the bore axis, inline with the piston, with the bolt suspended below. I can only deduce that this was done to gain linear recoil, and prevent undue strain on the rifle.
 
6.8 SPC doesn't do anything spectactular ballistically when compared to 5.56 MK262 Mod 0 / Mod 1.
It's a whole lot easier to say!:neener: And yes, it really expands your effectiveness with an AR. It will not make a bad shooter better, but rounds on target do more. The 5.56 has gotten a lot better lately, but so has the 6.8 (in less than 50 years too).

To the OP, why wait? I was in the same boat but decided I no longer had to wait on my uncle to issue me what I used and I don't regret it. I don't expect adoption any time soon with all the R&D and congressional appeasement of the USMC's evil lead bullets and Army's 855A1. If you want a cheap shooting range gun, or are going on some black-ops snoopin' where resupply will not happen, don't get the 6.8. If you want to use an AR, piston or DI, for taking game or any application where terminal performance is desired from an accurate, lighweight package, you will like the 6.8 now.
 
2) I never warmed to the gas impingement system of the AR given the other design aspects of the platform. C'mon, even the most ardent AR fans should admit that you do have to keep these weapons very clean

Pat Rogers, who I'm guessing has fired a few more rounds through the platform than you and had exposure to countless more DI ARs under hard use than you have, would disagree.

I agree with Zak that conclusions based on your erroneous premises will be problematic at best, sort of the old garbage in garbage out problem. Perhaps you will find the article linked to below interesting where A BCM AR is pushed well beyond what some on the internet might have you believe is possible.

http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf

A quality AR is a perfectly serviceable weapon. Piston driven ARs are not a route I would go. If I wanted a piston driven weapon I would look at another platform. If you want a 6.8 SPC weapon go for it. It is more expensive and has its own set of strengths and trade offs but if you understand that and want one then go for it.

In buying a weapon I would not ignore the experience of the military or various military trials but I would also be much more concerned with what my individual needs and purposes were. Just because the military adopts or rejects something doesn't mean its what is best for me and my purposes.
 
My opinions are just that, but no one can legitimately deny that the AR series has shortcomings that are definitive, as does the 5.56 cartridge.

The same can be said for any platform or cartridge.

Good luck on the 6.8.

I'll stick with 5.56. Honestly, after building and owning an AR...I no longer like the platform. It's fun to build and accessorize, but I honestly enjoy actually shooting lever actions and bolt guns more. My wonderful girlfriend decided she loves it, so selling it is a no-go now.

Regarding the military changing cartridges, I just don't see it happen. Money is tight, even in government and defense. Rearming even just one branch of the armed services would be insanely expensive and a logistical nightmare. I If they were to replace the 5.56, I feel they would do it slowly and gradually. Starting with smaller, specialized teams being equipped with it and then slowly through the rest of the troops (again, assuming they wanted to replace it). It would be a gradual process that would span several years.
 
Regarding the military changing cartridges, I just don't see it happen. Money is tight, even in government and defense. Rearming even just one branch of the armed services would be insanely expensive and a logistical nightmare. I If they were to replace the 5.56, I feel they would do it slowly and gradually. Starting with smaller, specialized teams being equipped with it and then slowly through the rest of the troops (again, assuming they wanted to replace it). It would be a gradual process that would span several years.
We agree on if they.mil will be changing cartridges, but I cannot buy the "too difficult" excuse. The transition from M-14 to M-16 involved the gun, magazines, ammo, training, parts, maintenance, personal equipment (mag pouches, etc), and even the bayonet...during the early part of Vietnam. The 6.8 (or 6.5 if that is your pony) transition would only be part of the gun, magazines, and ammo. Everything else could remain identical. Not easy, but not insurmountable.
 
The transition from M-14 to M-16 involved the gun, magazines, ammo, training, parts, maintenance, personal equipment (mag pouches, etc), and even the bayonet...during the early part of Vietnam.
And we messed that one up royally. A whole bunch of good people lost their lives because of improper cleaning recommendations and inadequate supplies.

But I do agree with this:

Not easy, but not insurmountable.

I just don't feel that the 5.56 is so inadequate that it necessitates a massive, complete rearming of our armed services.

I'm just a guy on the internet, though...what do I know. :D
 
And we messed that one up royally. A whole bunch of good people lost their lives because of improper cleaning recommendations and inadequate supplies.
We shouldnt confuse a bureaucratic error with a logistical shortcomming. Nobody cleaned because they were told they didn't need to and the cleaning supplies never arrived because they were never ordered.

I just don't feel that the 5.56 is so inadequate that it necessitates a massive, complete rearming of our armed services.
It wouldn't be rearming, just adding a little muscle to the arms. ;)

I'm just a guy on the internet, though...what do I know.
Same boat:cool: And I don't want to steer this thread into another 6.8/5.56 praise/bash thread. So...over. :D
 
I don't want to engage in the 5.56 vs. 6.5/6.8 argument either, but to say that the 5.56 is inadequate might be stretching it. I'm a couch commando too, but I have seen what a heavy .223 bullet that's hauling butt can do to meat at a few hundred yards. it ain't pretty.

Sometimes bigger is better. Sometimes bigger isn't smarter. If you can have a larger caliber rifle and be able to shoot it, great, but if you have to let it sit there because you can't afford to shoot it, you would have been better off with something that you could shoot enough to get proficient with.

I'm a hand/reloader. I was looking into something bigger not too long ago. I was considering the SPC myself. For me, it would have been a matter of ordering the barrel, bolt and magazines and about half an hour in the shop to build one. I decided to get a .308 after I sourced the components for the SPC and checked the prices on the brass. For me, the SPC just didn't make any sense.
 
Don't own an AR (or any high cap carbine other than an inherited M1). Don't own 5.56 or 6.8, but I like both fine.

5.56 is probably the best round for the general purpose it is used for. I don't really think the military gains much and may lose just as much by going to the 6.8 or 6.5. That's unfortunate, because I do like those rounds and would like to see cheaper (surplus) ammo. They would make good short range hunting rounds.
 
Would it have been worth while for nato to look at the 5.45x39 as a barrel / bolt option for the ar based rifles. Or does this ammo not show up in afgan
 
As I understand it, recently there was a high ranking USMC general seriously considering the 6.8spc for adoption until the new 5.56 SOST round became available and showed good results.

Where SOCOM goes, the USMC follows with small arms stuff. The USMC looked at 6.8SPC shortly after USASOC/SOCOM field trialled it, but I don't think the Marines ever had a realistic shot at selling Congress on letting them go their own way on service rifle caliber. They then got excited by SOST after SOCOM fielded it.

In other words, the USMC aren't really the folks to watch for what's up and coming with US military small arms these days (which is probably a good thing, seeing how much got done wrong with the M16A2 where they were largely driving the train).
 
You can think whatever you want but for now the 6.8 is a dead round and the chances of NATO adopting it is slim to none. No reason quite frankly the current round is just fine, and defense budgets are tight.


OTOH if you like it buy it, its your money. I'd get a 6.8 rifle but I don't reload and paying $1 a round is to much. I don't have enough money to be comfortable blasting 200-300 of those downrange a weekend, than 1k+ for a carbine class or the Appleseed. I'll stick to 5.56.
 
Anybody who doesn't like paying $1 a round OBVIOUSLY doesn't shoot much hunting or precision ammo in ANY other caliber. And those who do - reload to cut the costs.

I'm always amused at those who bitch about the cost of ammo because they can't get it thru taxpayer subsidized, government supported sales of surplus or reject ammo. It's perfectly fine to shoot cheap ammo, it's really not a great example of logical thinking to complain it's not all cheap.

I'm no fan of the 5.56, wasn't a fan of the AR at all, but came around because it does exactly what the design was made to do - shoot intermediate caliber ammo with the most ergonomic set of controls in the lightest weight design yet available. It does it well regardless of any opinion to the contrary, including the one I previously held the entire 22 years I was in the Reserves.

Improving the power for a 50% increase in foot pounds is certainly anyones choice - there are plenty of alternative calibers, even the 6.5g delivers more energy than the 5.56. Why that is considered a negative is a bit baffling - the Army just dumped the .308 for the .300 Win Mag for a reason, didn't it?

And that is promising - THE ARMY JUST CHANGED THE CALIBER IN A WEAPONS SYSTEM. It CAN happen.

Would the new Improved Carbine show up in 6.8 or whatever, including the LSAT caseless? It's likely - it's going to take a big leap forward to get the Army's attention, and a 50% reduction in ammo weight - which means a 50% increase in ammo - could do it. That's all in the future, and speculative, as much as the fantasy gamer zombie invasion. You want widely available ammo, shoot .30-30 or .30-06. Military ammo was hoarded in the first few weeks of the Obama scare. Get real. Oh, by the way, a lot of that civilian ammo is $1 a round too, like Leverevolution.

Boils down to, choose the 6.8 if you want - but don't forget it was invented by SF to deliver more than the 5.56, and do it delivered from the DI issue AR. That is where the combination delivers more than just the parts. Don't let the mythology of the jammomatic get in the way of a better weapon system.
 
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