Gun Control Is Never Going Away

[Steel Horse Rider]

As I stated before, if every person who wants to put government back into its constitutional straight jacket made a contribution to a liberty minded political candidate and then stayed in contact to provide guiderails we (as a country) would not be in the mess we have today and donors would not be lining the pockets of the shadow bureaucracy that claims to keep tabs on the government. Personal involvement can never be replaced by lobbyists unless we surrender that obligation to them.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

As I stated before, if every person who wants to put government back into its constitutional straight jacket made a contribution to a liberty minded political candidate and then stayed in contact to provide guiderails we (as a country) would not be in the mess we have today and donors would not be lining the pockets of the shadow bureaucracy that claims to keep tabs on the government. Personal involvement can never be replaced by lobbyists unless we surrender that obligation to them.

Thank you. That's part of what I've been saying for awhile. We need to organize. We need something that shows the public and our politicians that we are organized and can become organized, so that by the very number of members in the organization. The politicians fear our ability to unseat them from their political office and our fellow citizens feel empowered to join us.

A Trust would in part accomplish this. Imagine a politician seeing a Trust with ten million members (who in reality at only one time contributed three dollars) who regularly communicate, share ideas, write blogs and articles, and share similar voting habits because of their exchange of ideas. Ten million votes in a presidential election is not something that can easily be dismissed. Ten million members contributing a dollar a piece to unseat a senator or congressman is not something that can be ignored.

It would be awesome power in the hands of the RKBA movement, then imagine those very same Trust members organizing at some later time to deal with other threats to our civil rights. At times having multiple trusts targeting the same civil rights violating politician.

Paid lobbyists would be made irrelevant, it would be the will of the people.

 

[huntsman]

If I'm gathering correctly you are suggesting that gun control is a distraction to an even bigger problem or looming storm of civil rights violations.

Yes a distraction in the sense that gun owners believe if they focus on the gun issue that's all they need to do.The notion that somehow we can be slack in our civic duties just because we have our guns (to take back the government) when it gets too bad is flawed and fatal thinking.

I'm really having a hard time reconciling what is happening in Conn, NY and California to the attitude of the vocal members of the gun community, for years I've heard and read the mantra that the 2nd amendment isn't about hunting it's about protecting liberty, yet when the time came gun owners took their place in line for registration.

When it comes to RBKA I've always tried my best to vote for freedom (which I believe is what all gun owners should do) but I'm reluctant to do more because I've come to suspect that my fellow gun owners aren't really making that simple effort (to vote) so why should I bail them out?

You seem to believe fund raising and social gatherings are ways to stall the erosion of gun rights, I just think it'll lead to more of the same self-severing apathy.

Am I a defeatist? To some yeah probably but I consider myself a realist and live my life as such.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Yes a distraction in the sense that gun owners believe if they focus on the gun issue that's all they need to do.The notion that somehow we can be slack in our civic duties just because we have our guns (to take back the government) when it gets too bad is flawed and fatal thinking.

I'm really having a hard time reconciling what is happening in Conn, NY and California to the attitude of the vocal members of the gun community, for years I've heard and read the mantra that the 2nd amendment isn't about hunting it's about protecting liberty, yet when the time came gun owners took their place in line for registration.

When it comes to RBKA I've always tried my best to vote for freedom (which I believe is what all gun owners should do) but I'm reluctant to do more because I've come to suspect that my fellow gun owners aren't really making that simple effort (to vote) so why should I bail them out?

You seem to believe fund raising and social gatherings are ways to stall the erosion of gun rights, I just think it'll lead to more of the same self-severing apathy.

Am I a defeatist? To some yeah probably but I consider myself a realist and live my life as such.

This rings true to me.

The real problem with gun owners is they don't vote. I'm not talking about just nat'l elections, I'm talking about all the local elections also. The problem we are faced with in every aspect of keeping all of our freedoms from eroding is lack of voter participation. Only half of the eligible voters in this country actually vote. If you look at the demographic of who actually votes it would be people with higher than a G12 education. The majority of those are moderate or left leaning. If 90% of all gun owners paid attention to the political landscape and actually voted we wouldn't be in this mess we are in. What effect do you think it would have if every gun owner actually voted? Some of them might not get the ticket 100% pro gun but I bet it would be enough to slam the door shut on a lot of these state laws that everyone is moaning about. All the NRA can really do is strong arm politicians and tell you who to vote for. They can't vote. There in lies the problem.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

This rings true to me.

The real problem with gun owners is they don't vote. I'm not talking about just nat'l elections, I'm talking about all the local elections also. The problem we are faced with in every aspect of keeping all of our freedoms from eroding is lack of voter participation. Only half of the eligible voters in this country actually vote. If you look at the demographic of who actually votes it would be people with higher than a G12 education. The majority of those are moderate or left leaning. If 90% of all gun owners paid attention to the political landscape and actually voted we wouldn't be in this mess we are in. What effect do you think it would have if every gun owner actually voted? Some of them might not get the ticket 100% pro gun but I bet it would be enough to slam the door shut on a lot of these state laws that everyone is moaning about. All the NRA can really do is strong arm politicians and tell you who to vote for. They can't vote. There in lies the problem.

Guys, this is what I'm talking about. So many already feel defeated because of what is currently going on. We have to try and change that. If we don't start working on it we face potentially losing out big time. We need to identify the big and small players on the anti and pro sides. We need to support pros where there are antis and where there are only antis, support the challenger over the incumbent.

How often have we gun owners felt alone, without a voice, exposed to a world that what's to destroy our rights. There are tens of millions of us. Each with a voice, each searching to belong in some form or fashion. So many believe the hobby and right of gun ownership is wrong and warped. We need to start changing that. So many believe we common people can't really do anything to change the course of our country. We need to change that. And we can start with our RKBA.

When you buy a good, you are likely financing someone's lobbying department or lobbyist. What are you doing to finance your own lobbyist, that answers to you, that you elected or had a part in electing, and if they don't achieve what you want. You have a chance to get rid of them and get a new one.

The agenda setters aren't relying on the good faith of strangers. They are lobbying, they are buying votes, and you might think that is horrible and that is disgusting but that is what is happening. And so we must ask ourselves, what are we doing it to challenge it, now and in the future. What role are we taking or are we being lazy and complacent, complaining about others being the same way when we are making no effort to do any better.

 

[Ryanxia]

My personal way is to take new people to the range every chance I get. Get involved and support any youth shooting events you can. Talk respectively and logical to people at work or social setting who do not much about guns. Represent the "gun community" in a positve manner. Support the NRA

Nailed it. Just in case thought, stockpile guns & ammo.

 

[Glocktogo]

I'd like to pose a couple of thoughts on the subject. You can gather all the money in the world and it may not matter. You'd have to spend 4-1 against the antis in order to overcome the media bias that gives them a platform for free. Even then, your money may literally be no good. You wouldn't be allowed to buy airtime for your message in most cases, and campaign contribution limits will be more closely scrutinized for our side than theirs. These are just facts of life.

Take Bloomberg for instance. He has an estimated net worth of 31 BILLION dollars. He could literally outspend our entire cause single handedly if he chose to. How do you counter a guy like that? Two ways, neither of which are easy to do at all.

The quickest way would be to catch him out in a scandal. Not a gun control scandal, a financial scandal. Do you think his entire fortune was amassed legally? I highly doubt it. What you'd need is an inside confidant that hated him. The reason wouldn't matter. Said someone would have to be willing to end their career in order to kill his financial empire.

The other would be coming up with a way to destroy his financial empire by eliminating a huge chunk of his net worth. That would require incredible resources, beyond even the entirety of the NRA. You'd need a 30 year plan to train, equip and deploy a financial counterinsurgency team into his network, to undermine his net worth.

Whether you destroyed his reputation or his capacity to generate money would be irrelevant, but those are the only ways to hurt the man. In every other respect, he's untouchable.

You have to bring personal ruination to the enemy in order to cow them. People who would undermine the constitutional republic and our BoR have become downright emboldened in the past 30 years. They loathe us, but they do not fear us. They deserve fear, not arrogance.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

I'd like to pose a couple of thoughts on the subject. You can gather all the money in the world and it may not matter. You'd have to spend 4-1 against the antis in order to overcome the media bias that gives them a platform for free. Even then, your money may literally be no good. You wouldn't be allowed to buy airtime for your message in most cases, and campaign contribution limits will be more closely scrutinized for our side than theirs. These are just facts of life.

Take Bloomberg for instance. He has an estimated net worth of 31 BILLION dollars. He could literally outspend our entire cause single handedly if he chose to. How do you counter a guy like that? Two ways, neither of which are easy to do at all.

The quickest way would be to catch him out in a scandal. Not a gun control scandal, a financial scandal. Do you think his entire fortune was amassed legally? I highly doubt it. What you'd need is an inside confidant that hated him. The reason wouldn't matter. Said someone would have to be willing to end their career in order to kill his financial empire.

The other would be coming up with a way to destroy his financial empire by eliminating a huge chunk of his net worth. That would require incredible resources, beyond even the entirety of the NRA. You'd need a 30 year plan to train, equip and deploy a financial counterinsurgency team into his network, to undermine his net worth.

Whether you destroyed his reputation or his capacity to generate money would be irrelevant, but those are the only ways to hurt the man. In every other respect, he's untouchable.

You have to bring personal ruination to the enemy in order to cow them. People who would undermine the constitutional republic and our BoR have become downright emboldened in the past 30 years. They loathe us, but they do not fear us. They deserve fear, not arrogance.

That's an idea. But not one I'm entirely sure is legal and so I would have to pass. I'll stick with organizing and fund raising for lobbying.

 

[piece of meat]

Your plan sounds pretty good, Magnum. I would support that

 

[Glocktogo]

Not really ideas, so much as the ramblings of someone tired of always being on the defensive.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Guys, this is what I'm talking about. So many already feel defeated because of what is currently going on.

When you buy a good, you are likely financing someone's lobbying department or lobbyist. What are you doing to finance your own lobbyist, that answers to you, that you elected or had a part in electing, and if they don't achieve what you want. You have a chance to get rid of them and get a new one.

The agenda setters aren't relying on the good faith of strangers. They are lobbying, they are buying votes, and you might think that is horrible and that is disgusting but that is what is happening. And so we must ask ourselves, what are we doing it to challenge it, now and in the future. What role are we taking or are we being lazy and complacent, complaining about others being the same way when we are making no effort to do any better.

You can use me as your poster child if you want, I won't object.

The reality is the NRA has become it's own worse enemy with the image that it is now projecting. If you want to project that image of an old hacked off white guy ranting about hi cap AR's it's your money. And I know that UBC's don't work because I know where Lanza and Holmes and several other deranged shooters got their weapons. But most voters don't care about that, they're too wrapped up with day to day stuff to even think about it. What they care about is their kids and being able to go about in public without being assaulted. They want legislation to curb the gun violence and judging from the amount of money that will be spent (Bloomberg) in the next election they are probably going to get some. Not if they get it but what they get will be the real question. They seem to be getting plenty of it at the state level right now.

Time to change course because gun owners are about to be hit by a bus. You can either choose to try and dodge the bus with a few scrapes and bruises or stand in front of it.

As I said before, it's time to pay attention and vote.

And I'm not a plant or a mole. I've had a CWP for 20 years and I would like to keep it.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

You can use me as your poster child if you want, I won't object.

The reality is the NRA has become it's own worse enemy with the image that it is now projecting. If you want to project that image of an old hacked off white guy ranting about hi cap AR's it's your money. And I know that UBC's don't work because I know where Lanza and Holmes and several other deranged shooters got their weapons. But most voters don't care about that, they're too wrapped up with day to day stuff to even think about it. What they care about is their kids and being able to go about in public without being assaulted. They want legislation to curb the gun violence and judging from the amount of money that will be spent (Bloomberg) in the next election they are probably going to get some. Not if they get it but what they get will be the real question. They seem to be getting plenty of it at the state level right now.

Time to change course because gun owners are about to be hit by a bus. You can either choose to try and dodge the bus with a few scrapes and bruises or stand in front of it.

As I said before, it's time to pay attention and vote.

And I'm not a plant or a mole. I've had a CWP for 20 years and I would like to keep it.

Coaltrain, please don't think what I'm saying is an insult. It isn't meant that way. It's pointing out to many other gun owners and pro-RKBA that there are many of us who feel disaffected and not satisfied with the way things are currently going on.

I may not agree with you, but I respect you. And at the end of the day if I insult you or belittle you I potentially lose you as an ally when there was no cause or need for that. I won't placate the antis, I won't bow to them. I can't think for a second if I compromise it'll stop there. And I certainly cant' think we have won, that our rights are secure.

We're losing, no matter what anyone wants to think. We are losing, not because we don't have the numbers or that we're not right. We're losing because we're letting the antis win. Because we are letting them make guns the fall guy for society's ills. Not the many other problems plaguing society, and the antis don't want to address those problems. If they did they wouldn't be focusing so much and time, energy, and money on guns. And their plebicite minions would be demanding they address them, but they aren't. They are incapable of comprehending what they are doing, and they don't care if they do.

Surrendering our gun rights isn't the answer. What the answer is I don't totally know but I'm taking the position that if we throw up a tall enough and thick enough wall to destroying gun rights. We'll finally force the antis to deal with the real problems behind gun violence in this nation. Mental health, suicide, income inequality, racism, racial inequality, lack of jobs, urban sprawl, job loss, etc. etc. etc.. Because I can't think for a second after watching the last six years and seeing nothing happen, that if I give up my gun rights, those other issues will be addressed.

So I'll stand my ground and not budge an inch and if that means a bus figuratively runs me over. I accept that. But I'd rather go out swinging and trying to join the process and be a part of it than rather sitting down like a broken victim and folding my hands while I announce I'm prepared to suffer other people's tyranny.

We all are going to die one way, old age, accident, bear attach, etc. etc.. I'd like to know I simply didn't accept being a cog in someone else's machine and instead tried to build my own and invited others to join me.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Not really ideas, so much as the ramblings of someone tired of always being on the defensive.

Glocktogo, sorry. I meant what I typed as tongue-in-cheek. If I found out someone did that I wouldn't frown about it. I'd probably dance the jig as I saw Bruce Willis do it in the Last Boyscout while I had a big smile on my face. I very much dislike Bloomberg, and I'm Jewish so it's not an anti-semite thing. I also dislike Schumer and Feinstein too. They are dangerous to freedom. Still they are a part of the system and the system reigns supreme and while the system still reigns (because when it stops reigning supreme, if it ever does, SWHTF) we need to be doing our best to have a role in it bigger than those already in it. We need to join it in a way the masses thought was lost or never going to happen. To participate with consciousness and intelligence. Focus and drive. To not be subverted or corrupted. Where a poor man's voice has as much value as a rich man's voice.

We need to find a way to get there. I'm trying, I hope one day I find it.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Coaltrain, please don't think what I'm saying is an insult. It isn't meant that way. It's pointing out to many other gun owners and pro-RKBA that there are many of us who feel disaffected and not satisfied with the way things are currently going on.

I may not agree with you, but I respect you. And at the end of the day if I insult you or belittle you I potentially lose you as an ally when there was no cause or need for that. I won't placate the antis, I won't bow to them. I can't think for a second if I compromise it'll stop there. And I certainly cant' think we have won, that our rights are secure.

You didn't insult me and I understand your position and respect it. Many feel the same as you do. It's your way and it has been effective. I have worked with a labor organization much larger than the NRA in the trenches.

Good luck.

 

[torqem]

stockpile "free" (recover it yourelf, from berms) lead and reloading components. The gunw will be laying everywhere, beside dead bodies, but enough ammo to matter any probably will not. Factory ammo costs way too much, so do commercial reloads. Right now, even .22's cost more than powder and primers.

 

[larryh1108]

We'll finally force the antis to deal with the real problems behind gun violence in this nation. Mental health, suicide, income inequality, racism, racial inequality, lack of jobs, urban sprawl, job loss, etc. etc. etc..

MD, these are all causes for all of society's ills. They have been around since there has been man, in one form or another. None of these can be eliminated with how our society is set up. However, I believe the next hurdle we have to address is how we, as a society, handle the mental health issues we face. We'll never be able to stop all the people who suddenly snap but there are people like Lanza who have shown that they can be a danger to themselves and society. How do we address people who obviously need help and the government basically tell the parents it's their problem? We may have handled it (mental health issues) poorly in the pre-70s but this is 2014 and we should be able to give people who need help a place to go to get help. From what I see and read, parents don't have many options when it comes to getting help for kids who are troubled. Lanza is a prime example of kids who fall thru the cracks and because of people like him, our rights are threatened. Bloombag wants to spend millions on just taking away our guns. He needs to spend those same millions on giving people a place to take their kids who need help without making them feel like bad parents. Serious mental health issues are easy to spot and deal with. The ones who are the biggest danger to society don't appear to be much different than any other kid. However, I believe the parents know something isn't quite right but are afraid to do something about it and have no money to help with doctors and treatment.

Attack the source of the issues, not the end result. As we know, guns aren't the problem, it's the sick minds behind them that need to be addressed. All of the other issues you mentioned will always be present. Mental health can be addressed and perhaps we can find a way to help those who need help. The government has their priorities in the wrong place, as usual. I know, ban super gulps so we don't get brain freeze. That's a good solution to a non-issue.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

MD, these are all causes for all of society's ills. They have been around since there has been man, in one form or another. None of these can be eliminated with how our society is set up. However, I believe the next hurdle we have to address is how we, as a society, handle the mental health issues we face. We'll never be able to stop all the people who suddenly snap but there are people like Lanza who have shown that they can be a danger to themselves and society. How do we address people who obviously need help and the government basically tell the parents it's their problem? We may have handled it (mental health issues) poorly in the pre-70s but this is 2014 and we should be able to give people who need help a place to go to get help. From what I see and read, parents don't have many options when it comes to getting help for kids who are troubled. Lanza is a prime example of kids who fall thru the cracks and because of people like him, our rights are threatened. Bloombag wants to spend millions on just taking away our guns. He needs to spend those same millions on giving people a place to take their kids who need help without making them feel like bad parents. Serious mental health issues are easy to spot and deal with. The ones who are the biggest danger to society don't appear to be much different than any other kid. However, I believe the parents know something isn't quite right but are afraid to do something about it and have no money to help with doctors and treatment.

Attack the source of the issues, not the end result. As we know, guns aren't the problem, it's the sick minds behind them that need to be addressed. All of the other issues you mentioned will always be present. Mental health can be addressed and perhaps we can find a way to help those who need help. The government has their priorities in the wrong place, as usual. I know, ban super gulps so we don't get brain freeze. That's a good solution to a non-issue.

Larry1108, your points are excellent. Then think about this. What would happen if a pro gun rights group, that has accomplished an influence in state and national debates regarding gun ownership, then turned and voted with two thirds of its membership voting yea'. To have five percent of its activist budget turned to address mental health issues in this country. What that form would exactly take I don't know but I deal with mental health professionals on a fairly common basis in my divorce cases (don't ask, it's tragic) and I would look to those members who work in the mental health fields for guidance on the matter.

Would it be an issue of funding lobbying for mental health matters. Forcing politicians to finance hospitals throughout the country so that they had spaces for those folks suffering from mental health issues, so that when cops encounter someone talking crazy (the Navy Shipyard shooter), there is somewhere to hold him and have him analyzed. Would it be an issue of sponsoring awareness of bullying and child mental health concerns. Outreach for those feeling suicidal or homicidal.

I don't know but I think once we got people organized around the idea of protecting our RKBA, we could then potentially get them organized around the idea of addressing those issues that lead to gun violence. We have to start somewhere.

Plus it would go right up the back ends of those good for nothing antis to be able to say to their faces that we are actually doing something while they don't do a damn thing to help people.