Gun Culture 3.0?

[barnbwt]

The BP/CAS stuff stems from the old Western movies & TV shows; that's been gone for a couple generations, which is why those are fading.

Once the cycle of fads favors that period of history again, and it will, lever guns, six shooters, and cap locks will come back into vogue, while AR's and the like are seen as plain & unhip, if obviously still more useful.

TCB

 

[Hokkmike]

Hunting is on the decline and so will shooting in general unless we properly educate and let our youth enjoy the thrill of shooting. Locally, we have a gun club in school and shooting is very popular. Nationwide, the opposite is true. May educators, sadly, preach against gun ownership and use. I found the best way to "convince" an anti is to take him or her to the range. (brag up their shooting if you can get them to do it)

 

[Deanimator]

How do you figure? I've just started shooting at distances 300+ yards and mil-surp type ammo just won't cut it. For the cost of one round of something like Hornady ELD-M ammo I can make two runs at the plate rack with a 9mm pistol, this will take at least six seconds of shooting if I'm really on, nine seconds on a bad day. This is significantly more time shooting than one shot at a long range target.

If you're not handloading, you're not really serious about precision rifle shooting.

No manufacturer even sells a factory load comparable to my 1,000 yard .30-06 load.

Those of us who shoot NRA long range rifle don't do it for the sheer volume of shots fired. If all I cared about was how many shots I fired, I'd buy a Hi Point carbine and as much Berdan primed surplus as I could carry out of the gun show.

Some of us don't care about number of shots fired, plate racks, etc.

I don't even bother to shoot either of my bolt guns closer than 600 yards.

 

[Deanimator]

Probably correct, but as for experience and knowledge go, I cringe every time I see Mr. Flintlock fire his flint-lock on "Impossible Shots" TV show without eye protection!
He does do amazing shooting feats, but I'm surprised he still has eyesight.

While I never shoot on a range without eye and hearing protection, I recognize that such things are a VERY recent development. I doubt that either ever entered the thoughts of Timothy Murphy or Alvin York.

 

[wally]

If you're not handloading, you're not really serious about precision rifle shooting.

So you don't see this as an impediment to the widespread adoption of PRS as part of "Gun Culture 3"?

The original speculation was that PRS shooting offers "more shooting time and fun for less money". Which doesn't match my experience, although I'm a newbie to shooting at things past 200 yards and at this point I don't feel using Hornady "Steel Match" is holding back my development. I figure when I'm hitting 70+% on 2-3 moa targets I can start worrying about finding better ammo and shooting 1-2 moa targets. Reading the wind is my biggest issue -- if I fire a couple of sighters at a 4 moa plate to gauge the drift, I then can usually hit 5 or 6 of the next 8 on a 2 moa plate next to it if the wind don't change too much.

I doubt that either ever entered the thoughts of Timothy Murphy or Alvin York.

? When the bullets are flying both ways you've a lot more to worry about than eye and ear protection, although it seems to be becoming a priority for today's troops -- too much future VA liability to not do it.

 

[RKRCPA]

Gun Culture 1.0 was hunting-centric. Signature rifle was a sporterized Mauser or '03 Springfield. Signature pistol was the S&W Model 10...maybe..

I guess I'm GC 1.0, my sporterized Mauser and '03A3 are still my all time favorite rifles.

 

[LiveLife]

This is my take on watching/talking to the next generation of new shooters at the range in recent years:

- The younger generation who grew up playing first person shooting video games like Call of Duty/Medal of Honor/Americas Army will gravitate towards Air Soft, Paintball, Pellet rifle, BB guns and FIrearms. They like "military type" weapons they used in the games and want to own and shoot the "real" guns.

- Those who served in the military will continue to shoot AR type rifles like previous generations of veterans wanting to shoot M1 Garand, M1A, M1 Carbine, 1911, Beretta M9, etc.

- The shooting sports will continue, especially by female shooters. Gaming culture is big with the younger generations and shooting competition is logical extension to shooting. Just look at countless Youtube videos of younger shooters reviewing and evaluating firearms - Many grew up watching Hickok45 videos.

- Take a look at who hangs around the gun stores and sporting section of Walmart. Not the old guys but a bunch of young people. Young people like guns. If they live in metropolitan cities, gun ownership is not a luxury but a necessity to breathing.

- Many younger generation feel they are "entitled" to all things and want to pursue the same hobbies of their parents. Just look at the cars they drive. Do you think they want 38 Special revolvers? No. They want their Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, 1911s and ARs.

- You can bet attacks on the Second Amendment will continue, likely with greater fervor now with Neil Gorsuch on the SCOTUS. But the younger generation has Google and Youtube at their fingertips and socially connected via Facebook, Twitter, etc. Many are surprisingly knowledgeable and willing to mobilize for their cause. While many supported Bernie Sanders, many view Second Amendment as a "rights" issue and not a partisan issue. For those who like and want to keep their guns, they will vote accordingly.

As far as I can see, Gun Culture 3.0 is already here.

 

[Zoogster]

The 2nd appears to only mean a little more than nothing from where I sit in an anti-gun state.
Where they require new modifications of previously purchased firearms and prohibit purchase of more guns than they allow.

They only let you have handguns from a list, don't let you have numerous long guns, and increasingly take away the right to own guns at all for life or large chunks of your life for an increasing variety of offenses.
Shall not be infringed is a joke. The authoritarian police state is real, and why almost all officers have a carbine in their vehicles configured in a manner that is not even legal for most citizens to purchase in a local store.
If you follow the gun laws in many places you have nothing but infringement.

On top of that it appears you have to defend your right to even own what you can every single generation because every generation has more people (and thus a bigger voting block) and needs to be convinced why it doesn't need to remove the RKBA from the rest of the population. While they are all raised in a school system that preaches pacifism and punishes a student involved in a fight irregardless of who started it or was responsible. Even self defense use of force is taught as being part of the problem and results in suspension or expulsion. Yet we expect a large enough percentage of these people to keep coming out of that school system in favor of lethal adult self defense? I wouldn't count on it.

While at the federal level which is where the RKBA is insured for all citizens, they seem to only add more restrictions during anti-gun years but don't roll back the restrictions in pro-gun years and seem content to just wait until the antis continue where they left off when they get back in office.

 

[barnbwt]

hey seem to only add more restrictions during anti-gun years but don't roll back the restrictions in pro-gun years and seem content to just wait until the antis continue where they left off when they get back in office.

This is because gun owners don't seem to ever demand more than this brief respite. Look at the collective satisfaction surrounding the big NRA shin-dig, which isn't a rallying cray for the HPA for some inexplicable reason (you know, the law being championed by the Son of the King, the first law in some thirty years to have the slimmest hope of getting a floor vote, the bill that even the NY Times and WaPo are having a really hard time disagreeing with, the bill that would uncork a multi-million if not billion-dollar native industrial economic sector, which would demonstrably impact likely millions of gun owners within the first year or so, which already has dozens of senators & representatives including former presidential candidates but somehow not the current one as backers).

Does anyone here think that Bloomberg or Schumer would have failed to bring up a proposed Assault Weapons Ban bill at a similarly high profile event hosted by the Brady Coalition? That it wouldn't be a focal point of nearly all speakers and demonstrators for the duration of the event?

CB

 

[Tirod]

Just like Gun Culture 1.0 ignored the changes leading to 2.0 the indicators are there if you shake off the culture you are stuck in.

Are we in 3.0, yes, and from the 3.0 perspective going retro isn't the trend. Muzzleloading and precision? Hardly. The trends right now are AR pistols, SBR's, rifle and pistol caliber submachine guns, and suppressors. Of the trending commentary over the last two years, the legality of the Brace on AR pistols has been more extensive than somebodies concern about a new way to use a muzzle loader - if anything those already had their peak technology period some 5 years ago. The introduction of inlines, compressed solid charges, sabots, and fast reloading is winding down. It's about all you can find on the shelf anymore. Interest in muzzleloading is actually on the decline now.

Goes to which Culture one is looking from - and looking from 3.0, having purchased an HK91 in 1976, with red dot, to now, hunting exclusively with an AR pistol in 5.56, I see different trends in the future. One will be more traditional metal framed guns. Yes, they are expensive, but saying the AR15 is "souless" comes from a 1.0 perspective - guns don't need wood on them. The biggest demand from trendsetters is buying metal framed guns - CZ's, 1911's, S&W 3Gens. Plastic might be nice for carry but that demand is coming from NEW CCW shooters, not the trendsetters looking for something else. Especially another black plastic gun. Seen one seen them all. A stainless 4566TSW, tho, now, that be different. So is a CZ75 or a compact. And so is a AR pistol with Shockwave blade.

What we will also see is more capacity shooting, not long distance precision shooting. What is the current leading edge trigger out there? BINARY - shoots on pull and release. What is the leading edge political target? Rescinding the NFA, chipping away at it by removing silencers from enforcement and tax restricted purchasing. Again - Culture - and you won't see people advocating that if they aren't leading edge 3.0. Bluntly, 1.0/2.0 won't even consider it and are the internal enemy who won't get out to the way. They are still an impediment to progress.

We will be full 4.0 when I can go to the range and practice with my AR with binary trigger and Brace - with a lane built just for that, and no "Timed firing is required" warnings. If I want to blow away a 60 round mag in 8 round bursts at 50 feet then that is my goal, and there are a lot of others already doing it - with no stamps or machine guns. Why in the world would I want that? Because each version of gun culture increases the level of "Don't tell me I can't get it." Full autos are selling for $10,000 and up yet they are still in demand, the AR pistol is the workaround for owning an SBR TODAY, not when a Stamp finally arrives, and binary is the workaround for the Hatch Act. Every generation takes what the previous barely allowed and ratchets it up to excess.

The pinnacle of Gun Culture 4.0 will be the day you can buy a full auto HK MP5 clone legally as an impulse purchase, walk out the door in one hour and it's actually "affordable," too. And the previous gen Fudds will be the biggest complainers.

 

[AlexanderA]

This is because gun owners don't seem to ever demand more than this brief respite.

That's not the fault of rank-and-file gun owners, but, rather, of the leadership of the organized gun lobby. They (and the politicos that are aligned with them) would rather have a live issue that never gets resolved (and that therefore can be used as a vehicle for fundraising and organizing) than an actual pro-gun accomplishment. And the periodic gun-control panics put money into the hands of the gun manufacturers. (And the same thinking exactly applies to the other side! The Brady Bunch have made careers around gun control, although, to be honest, advocating for gun control is not as lucrative as advocating for gun rights.) That's why we'll never see the gun issue laid to rest. There's gold in them thar hills. Sorry for being so cynical.

 

[stoky]

Those of us that have been through a few cycles of this have a certain................perspective.
meh

 

[wally]

big NRA shin-dig, which isn't a rallying cry for the HPA for some inexplicable reason (you know, the law being championed by the Son of the King, the first law in some thirty years to have the slimmest hope of getting a floor vote, the bill that even the NY Times and WaPo are having a really hard time disagreeing with

The real work of actually getting it passed is best done quietly without stirring up the ant-hill. This way they can vote on the merits (or not) of the Bill instead of the optics and potential sound-bytes.

 

[Coyote3855]

Probably correct, but as for experience and knowledge go, I cringe every time I see Mr. Flintlock fire his flint-lock on "Impossible Shots" TV show without eye protection!
He does do amazing shooting feats, but I'm surprised he still has eyesight.

I wonder when, in the history of flintlock firearms, people started wearing eye protection? I suppose some were injured and I would never shoot any firearm without glasses and muffs, but folks did without those things for hundreds of years and somehow survived.

On topic, I think it impossible to predict where "gun culture" will go in the future. My own interests and tastes have changed a great deal in the 65 years I've been shooting. I was a hunter, competitor, collector, recreational shooter. Don't hunt or compete anymore, but still enjoy collecting and practicing with my carry guns on my backyard range.

 

[hdwhit]

Gun Culture 3.0. No more gun bans, no need for panic buying or hoarding.

As you can read here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...armory-rock-river-arms-no-more-for-me.820876/
I don't think we can characterize the lull in gun control activity as the Federal level as a cultural shift. The battlegrounds are now in the state legislatures and they don't generate the same nationwide interest. The developments chronicled in that post seem likely to provoke panic buying in Illinois.

Also, if Trump continues to disappoint those supporters who are not die hards, but supported him merely because of their disgust with Hillary, we could have Democrats back in power in three and a half years and the whole subject of gun bans and panic buying at the national level would make a resurgence.

During the 2008 campaign then-candidate Obama spoke derisively about people clinging to their bibles and their guns. But, he was correct about the close cultural connection between religion and guns in America. In regards to discussing cultural shifts, that close connection should not be ignored. Books such as "Fourth Turning" which discuss the cultural shifts in religion may be helpful in that regard.

 

[barnbwt]

That's not the fault of rank-and-file gun owners, but, rather, of the leadership of the organized gun lobby

Oh, this past NRA convention made that abundantly clear, what with the bylaw changes to make it harder for upstart "radicals" to gain voting positions on the Board of Directors. I know of about six guys who tried & failed to get a seat, with the express goal of advocating for actual laws to improve our lot by undoing past infringements. I'm sure those old guard remember their coup in the '70's that ousted the Fudds, and don't care to be on the receiving end by punks who want the NFA/GCA attacked directly as well as the various import bans. The current guys were an improvement in that they don't want the AR15 banned, but it's pretty obvious they still see them as a separate class of weapon than good 'ol wood 'n steel, or they'd be attacking all the special restrictions like cans, short barrels, import regs, and select fire. They still aren't serious about defending these types of guns from restriction, they just realize they're a stepping stone to the banning of guns they do care about.

No, actually advocating for MG's does nothing to 'embolden' the people who already claim the NRA is advocating for MG's (it'd sure make me a more enthusiastic & generous donor, however)

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Also, if Trump continues to disappoint those supporters who are not die hards, but supported him merely because of their disgust with Hillary, we could have Democrats back in power in three and a half years and the whole subject of gun bans and panic buying at the national level would make a resurgence.

It would almost be worth it, but only if it occurred because of a party decision to drop the gun hate, if only temporarily. I suspect federal dems would clean up nationally if they would drop this irrational hatred of firearms for a moment (similar to how reps would utterly dominate the urban areas if they would ditch pot policy even half way). I think any move of a party platform toward freedom would be, and should be, strongly rewarded.

You can bet the first time the (R)'s lose an election to a (D) clique running on a pro-gun platform, there will be a bidding war to see who can do the most for the American gun owner. Hell, the reverse is how we racked up so many gun laws in the first place (two parties competing to see who could 'protect' us the most & be toughest on crime)

I don't think we can characterize the lull in gun control activity as the Federal level as a cultural shift.

The 'shift' was around '04 & '05 when the AWB came down as well as Heller. Since then we've been patiently waiting for those supposed pro-gun republicans at the federal houses to "do" something, and slowly lowering our expectations to the point an empty speech is big news for us.

TCB

 

[CoalTrain49]

Which sets up Gun Culture 3.0. No more gun bans, no need for panic buying or hoarding. But what DO we do?

Dream on my friend.

The SC will never rule that a state doesn't have a right to regulate firearms. I'm not even sure Gorsuch is as 2A as many people believe. Even Scalia left the door open to states to regulate some types of weapons. The states that have large cities will continue to pass rifle bans just like they always have. My guess is the SC will never hear a lower court ruling on a state AR ban.

There's always going to be plenty of pavement dwellers who have no use for semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines. You can put the police who live there in that group also. The police are just an extension of the politics that prevail in large metro areas. Sheriffs are elected and police chiefs are appointed by mayor's.

Most of the serious deer hunters (meat hunters) I know have given up trying to hunt with modern rifles and have started using bows. The states have limited seasons and areas to such a degree that it doesn't make sense to use a modern rifle anymore. The most popular rifle sold in this state, the 5.56 AR isn't even a legal deer rifle. As populations increase and hunting opportunities decrease rifles will become nothing more than range toys.

People are more concerned these days with self defense so I see a huge increase in the number of shotguns and pistols being sold. Concealed weapons permits are on the rise as are states doing away with permits altogether. Mostly just a waste of time and tax dollars for enforcement.

What do we do? We vote to keep our rights in our own state. That right there will determine how much more or less regulation we get. Congress and the SC is a non entity here. Trying to put the gun culture into neat little versions like software releases is a waste of time.

 

[Deanimator]

So you don't see this as an impediment to the widespread adoption of PRS as part of "Gun Culture 3"?

You can shoot an NRA conventional pistol 2700 with an RG .22 revolver and a Hi Point .45.

Long range rifle is for the serious. If you're not reloading, you're not serious. You can learn the game with factory ammunition and a hunting rifle, but don't expect much more. Even a sporterized Swedish Mauser and handloads are better than factory ball or hunting loads.

 

[armoredman]

I am so glad to be in AZ - we improve our gun laws every year.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I am so glad to be in AZ - we improve our gun laws every year.

And the reason you can do that is your gun rights aren't being regulated in DC. One Nat'l law isn't a good fit for everyone. That's the way the constitution was designed. The only reason the last AWB failed was because every state has the same number of representatives in the senate unlike the house where that bill was conceived and passed.

 

[armoredman]

The AWB has been reintroduced every single year by the same Democrats in both the House and the Senate, and the Republicans have been in charge of the house since 2010. The Senate has equal representation to represent the states, while the House represents the POPULATION of those states...which is why the Senators used to be elected by the state legislators, a better original idea than the direct election the Democrats forced on us.

 

[Mk VII]

Anyone who wants to do muzzle-loading is already doing it.
Our experience was that there was a surge of interest in them after the pistol ban, but it soon fell away as people realised their limitations.

 

[KevininPa]

I doubt traditional muzzleloading will become more popular. Sadly, this lost art is on it's way out I think. Just not enough younger shooters interested in it.

I have to disagree with this. I work around a lot of young guys who shoot and hunt with black powder. Some started just to extend their hunting season. Others have just gotten bored with their semi autos and wanted to try something different.

 

[Mitlov]

Im 24 now, I guess that makes me a young shooter. I've had up to the eyeballs the past 8 years with "tacticool" guns and gear assembling ar-15s and Tupperware guns. Being young and inpatient I sought out something new and exciting. It started with a pietta 1851 kit on sale at cabellas and has grown from there. There's something about these brass and steel masterpieces that is much cooler than any plastic gun. It really peaks one's interest in the history and struggles of the times past.

Anywho, I guess you could say I'm part of the culture 3.0 (the third movie is always the best anyhow eg. Backto the future 3, Star wars A New Hope )

Sorry for the tangent, but A New Hope is episode four...

Edit: never mind, beaten to the punch.