Gun Culture: Older generation vs. younger generation

[essayons21]

Something happened on the range the other day that made me wonder.

I went shooting with 5 of my friends, we are all in our mid to late 20s, at a very nice private range which I belong to. One of the ranges is a long-distance range, but recently 25-yard hanging steel was added for pistol ranges. We were shooting my AR, my bolt gun, and 2 handguns, generally having a good time. Two other older gentlemen were shooting, looking like they were getting good dope for a high-power match. I was wearing peltors and kept hearing the gentlemen making comments like "watch the guy in the hat," and I noticed they had stopped shooting and were staring down my friends who were shooting pistols. I don't think they knew I could hear their comments.

At no time did I observe anyone doing anything unsafe, and my friends are extremely conscientious about firearms safety, yet the comments persisted. I finally went and asked them (politely) if their was any problem with the way we were shooting. They grumbled something about locking the slides back on the pistols when we set them down on the firing line bench. The pistols were pointing down range at all times, nobody was down range (all steel) and when he made the comment I looked over and both were sitting with their slides locked to the rear. I told them that if they observed anything unsafe please let us know. They shortly packed up and left.

Now this is what bothered me. As they left, one called out the window of his car, "Be careful with those handguns, it's not like your video games, they hurt in real life."

To put this in perspective, he was speaking to a group of 5 combat veterans, 2 with Purple Hearts, and all with extensive and formal firearms training (beyond basic training). Definitely a group of subject matter experts on how much bullets hurt, but stereotyped by our age.

This is not the first, nor will it be the last time myself or my gun-nut friends will be stereotyped by the older generation because of our age. It happens on a regular basis, at ranges, gunshops, and gunshows. It bothers me most because this treatment by our "elders" serves to alienate a younger generation of shooters and collectors. I have always been taught to be polite and respect my elders, but mutual respect is needed in our gun culture.

The older generations of shooters need to embrace and respect the younger generation, who may very well be influenced by video games, as well as their military and combat experience. There is nothing wrong with scary looking black rifles or putting lots of lead downrange if done in a safe manner. Simply because you have come to the range to put 20 rounds downrange over a 3 hour period, don't begrudge the group of guys who want to see how fast they can ring the gongs next to you. This is the next generation, and will be the ones who advance the shooting sports into the future.

I'd like some input from some of the older gentlemen on THR. How do you feel about the younger generation who likes scary looking rifles and high round counts? Why do you think such a large generational gap exists between the age brackets of our gun culture? I can appreciate a nice 45-70 and the skill it takes to hit a steel ram at 200 yards offhand, so why don't those gentlemen appreciate a well built AR-15 and the skill necessary to consistently ring gongs with a hi-cap XD from 25 yards?

 

[againstthagrane]

i know exactly what you mean. i'm 27 and i get that crap all the time. just don't let it get to you. the funny thing is, our generation has probably put in far more hours doing research and educating ourselves on the various firearms that we enjoy shooting than they ever will. i still hear old timers at ranges talking about how shotguns or magnum calibers will "take someone off of their feet" or how "ar-15s 'jam' all the time".

if you think the age thing is annoying, add being a minority into the mix and you get double stereotyped.

while it's true that video games inspired me to become a gun owner, how is that any different from watching footage of troops in WW2 and wanting to own in an M1 carbine or a nagant? in fact if you ask me, video games are more interactive and a far less lazy form of entertainment that watching tv or going to a movie. the older generation will always look down on youngsters from their ivory tower of judgment.

 

[Kyle1886]

Essay, first let me thank you and your group for your service, a salute to all. I can only speak for myself, but I am more than willing to learn something new or more refined from young or old alike. I don't think what you experience is just limited to the "gun culture" though and sometimes it goes both ways. Yeah, sometime I hear a young fellow say "Look at that old dude, he's doing such-an such". I just have to smile to myself and am thankful I can still do such-an-such. You are correct though, respect should be a two way street regardless of the activity. By the way, I'd love to own a nice evil black rifle and be proud to have a young fellow instruct me in the finer point of shooting the weapon.

If you see an old geezer trying to wrap his arthritic hands around a Glock, that may be me. Come over and say "Howdy".

Respectfully
Kyle

 

[gunhack]

i'm two years shy of 60.. dont know if that makes me "older"... dont know if I qualify as a "gentleman" either...

but... you cant categorize older shooters as "thus-and-so" any more that the older shooters can categorize you "younger" shooters as irresponsible...

I'm always happy to see competent, younger shooters... but then my son could field strip and clean an AR well before he went off to MCRD San Diego...

I shoot SASS and we see a number of younger shooters, male and female, who are extremely competent.. and safe... and a good cowboy shooter can dump a single action pistol as fast ( some say faster) than a 1911...

y'all wernt holdin them pistols sideways, was ya..?

Guess them old timers never got to shoot IDPA or anything...

Thank yer pards for their service...

Regards;

 

[jnyork]

Well, I'm 70 and I appreciate an AR type rifle. I also appreciate fine handguns of any type. I also appreciate meeting younger people in the shooting sports. I can tell you I get real nervous around some of the people who show up at our public range and do the "spray and pray" routine with the rapid fire from the hip, shooting at nothing but dirt downrange (hopefully). The sterotypes you discussed spring from these types, others have spoiled it for you. Many of these people are downright dangerous and it is obvious their only exposure to firearms is what they see in "action" movies and on TV, not even 30 seconds of training in firearms safety.

At the other range I shoot on, and at almost all ranges for that matter, the rule is "actions open except when firing". That's why the older guys got concerned about you placing your handguns on the bench with the slides closed.

 

[BHP FAN]

I was in the service thirty years ago,and just this weekend had a young fellow just out of ''Boot'' all but tell me ''your Jedi powers are weak,old one''!
it really does go both ways.we in the gun culture need to spread the word,or the next generation after yours will be our last.with the President signing UN Arms Treaties,we need ALL the gun Culture,young and old, to Stand united.

 

[brandonc]

I was at AJI sales in apache junction, they have an awesome selection of military surplus rifles. I was holding a vz24 (which I own myself) and was explaining to my friend why mausers very reliable (CRF, ect.) one of the customers there muttered "Kids like that shouldn't be using rifles" :banghead:

 

[JW2]

Who said they left their pistols on the bench with the slides closed? He specifically said they sat them down with the slides locked back.

I personally don't understand why anyone is concerned with the method or style of someone else's shooting, as long as it is safe and you are not putting me or anyone else in danger. I might not favor putting 20 rounds down range in a three hour period, but that's none of my business if someone wants to shoot that way. Different strokes for different folks. There's a purpose for both styles of shooting.

 

[basicblur]

Well before you go stereotyping all us "older" gentlemen...

Some of us own an AR or two!
I have no problem with the younger generation/video games etc (although I don't play 'em), but it does bother/irritate/worry me that a large number of 'em seem to think a firearm must have a 3 oz. trigger (even on a SD gun). Methinks some of them need to learn shooting on a DA revolver, Sigma (how many times have you heard 'bout the crappy Sigma trigger?), etc.

As Ayoob sez, "A light trigger pull is, more than anything else, a crutch for bad trigger technique".

De Blur concurs...

 

[BADSBSNF81]

I just hit a half century plus one and grew up in/on and around military bases. My dad did 25+ years and I did 27 years in the big green machine. Slides locked, action open, bolt back, muzzle up and down range, etc. was not so gently beaten into my thought process and muscle memory. These kind gentlemen were WWII, Korea and VN era instructors and while teaching me the physical, mental and safety rules, they passed on some tips that have kept me on the upside of ground level. I try to pass it forward to old or young if they want to learn and listen.

You handled the situation just fine. Maybe they were having a bad day or misread your posture.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

I was at a rifle club as a guest with my fathers friend a while back. I brought my evil black bolt gun and a few pistols. There were a couple old timers that kept looking our way and talking while we were setting up and starting shooting. I don't think they approved of us young'uns. It was funny because my 80 year old grandma was shooting with us though.. But the vast majority of the time I find that by showing respect and real interest in what the older shooters are doing, I get it right back. Plus you get some cool tips and stories.. I like the older crowd really. More about having fun and not at all about looking cool.

 

[Walkalong]

They grumbled something about locking the slides back on the pistols when we set them down on the firing line bench. The pistols were pointing down range at all times, nobody was down range (all steel) and when he made the comment I looked over and both were sitting with their slides locked to the rear.

Gotta agree with them. It lets people know the gun is safe if the action is open. I don't see it as a generational difference, but more of a safety behavior which doesn't seem to have been passed down very well.

If I am out shooting with people using my guns we may have 10 on a table. We will be walking around those guns. It isn't always feasable to or roomy enough to be able to put the table where we can stay away from the muzzles even if they remain pointed downrange. My rule is the action is opened at the firing line when done, brough to the table that way and put on the table that way. Everyon can see the gun is safe.

It is a good safety measure that I recommend. I was taught that way, and I teach it that way. Shoot, open the action, and do not close it again until you reach the firing line the next time.

If I am by myself I usually do it as well. If others come to shoot nearby, I always do it as a courtesy to them. (53 by the way, and I own and enjoy an AK and an AR or two. )

we need ALL the gun Culture,young and old, to Stand united.

Yes we do.

 

[CraigC]

Three things:

1. Being young does not automatically make you an irresponsible moron that can't shoot.

2. Being old does not automatically make you a wise, learn-ed one that knows and sees all.

3. Idiots can be any age, any shape, any color, from any region and of any socio-economic status.

 

[BHP FAN]

Brandonc, that Townsend Whelen quote alone shows you have your head screwed on right.I'd be proud to have you shoot with me.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

1. Being young does not automatically make you an irresponsible moron that can't shoot.

2. Being old does not automatically make you a wise, learn-ed one that knows and sees all.

3. Idiots can be any age, any shape, any color, from any region and of any socio-economic status.

My thoughts exactly. There are young idiots, and there are old idiots. Most of the members here seem to rise above that standard though.

I'm 60, and I've been known to shoot with 80 year olds, and eight year olds. Seen safety violations from both, too.

 

[DammitBoy]

You dang kids get off my lawn!!

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Their beef was that you didn't lock the slides or bolts back when setting your guns on the bench? Unless this is a requirement of the range during a cease-fire, big deal.

 

[Mauserguy]

I agree with LRS Ranger, sometime you need to go break the ice. Next time try striking up a conversation with them on a subject beyond the perceived safety violation. You may find that they have some really interesting stories to tell.

I can see it in my own life that one really does gather experiences with age. Luckily for you and your friends, you have matured in interesting times and will one day be an old geezer at the rifle range with lots of stories to share. Don't be offended, just talk to them. It may be fun.
Mauserguy

 

[Crusader103]

I gotta chime in on this one.

In my low 30's, I still look quite a bit younger than that. Almost invariably, when I go to a certain range frequented by an "older crowd" I will get one of a couple reactions. First, apparently I am infringing on their space because my M&P-15 or Beretta 9mm doesn't fit their singular view of a sporting firearm. I have heard comments. Sometimes it's their looks or gestures.

Other times the "older" crowd assumes that this is my first day out and make an attempt to give me all kinds of advice (sometimes good/sometimes bad). They are generally very kind even if their advice is skewed slightly.

What they fail to realize is #1 I have been shooting for almost 25 years, #2 I am a decorated Marine, #3 I have several years as a law enforcement officer and am a multiple gunfight survivor, and #4 I have been a law enforcement and military firearms instructor since 1997. Heck, I even serve as a use of force consultant and certified court expert in firearms related cases.

To boot, I like the muzzle loaders, benchrest rifles, and classics as much as the next guy. I have to; my father was an antique arms collector and firearms author/historian long before I was born.

All I am saying is this. You can be the best handler and most educated authority in firearms and there is still going to be a guy that will come along and rain on your parade with an asinine remark or two. In the end, their just miserable people whether they are young or old. There's nothing you can do about it.

On the other hand, hopefully that older generation will show some interest in furthering the disciplines they have enjoyed all their lives. If they are the back end of a donkey, handle it as you see fit. I would probably be pretty direct. If they are just trying to be a good fellow shooter, take even the bad advice for what it is worth.

Oh, and on the slide issue. Whether they were back or not, who cares. As long as you are safe there should be no concern. Sometimes my slide is back, sometimes it's not. Sometimes I walk around with a loaded handgun in my holster (it's allowed where I shoot) and sometimes I walk up to the line before I load. They'd probably really hate my loaded rifle slung from a 3-point as I advance on a target firing a handgun. There is more than one way to be safe. And I've never had an inanimate firearm go off when lying on a table anyway.

 

[KMO]

Sadly, I can relate to a similar experience, and I was 50 years old at the time! It was my first time out with a group of guys that had been shooting together for some time, so I was the new guy among their group. There was one particular fellow who seemed a bit put out that I had been invited to shoot with the group. I no sooner stepped up to the line and he yelled "POINT THAT PISTOL DOWNRANGE!" This, of course, caused every head to turn toward me as the dumb new guy who, obviously, didn't know any better than to muzzle all the bystanders. In this case, it was clearly a "turf" thing, as I suspect it might have been in the OP above. Let's face it...there are one-uppers and armchair quarterbacks in the crowd whenever you pull together a bunch of guys. In the case of the firearms community, the guys with the biggest mouths typically can't shoot very well...just my observation...

 

[GRIZ22]

To put this in perspective, he was speaking to a group of 5 combat veterans, 2 with Purple Hearts, and all with extensive and formal firearms training (beyond basic training). Definitely a group of subject matter experts on how much bullets hurt, but stereotyped by our age.


Don't get all hissy over this. I was 19 years old 4 months when I got back from Vietnam. I was asked if my father was there when I ordered a beer at the VFW where I was a member since I was 18. Suck it up. I spent over 30 years as a LEO (most of it as a firearms instructor) and some guy tried to get "disqualified" at an IPSC match in the past few years as he felt I was doing something unsafe. I have warned countless younger LEOs that just because you shot once doesn't mean they stopped being a threat.

I'm only 60 but tell people I'm 106 and look good for my age. Generally carry a revolver because I know how to use it (I have serveral hi cap autos and my wife doesn't like semi autos), own ARs (the only rifle I ever used in battle and defend it no matter what others say about 6.8s and other calibers), so don't get upset with guys who may have learned how to make practice count. As a firearms instructor, people used to ask me for ammo for practice. they would say they were going to the range for an hour and wanted 400 rds. If they were shooting more than 200 rds an hour they were just sending lead downrange.

essayon21s, really don't let in bother you so much. I have guys in their 80s tell me what I'm doing wrong. Many of them Korean War vets who experienced light years more than I have. Don't let it bother you.

 

[wishin]

I'll be 70 shortly. Mind my own business at the range; as we all should. Having said that, if I see an unsafe practice at the range by young or old I'd be inclined to say something directly to the individual, especially if it may preclude me from living to be a hundred.

As a vet and an old guy, I know that they all come in various shapes and sizes. They're a cross section of our society. Some made it through war by sheer luck. This applies to old farts and vets. Going through these life experiences should make one wiser. There are exceptions.

 

[jakeiscrazy]

Interesting story. First off that you for your service. Second, it's sad to see shooters as a whole represented poorly by those gentlemen. I'm a young shooter(16) I have never had an issue with another shooter at the range. I often talk to others, discuss various guns or what not. Sometimes, I do get the he doesn't know what he's talking about face, but I find the subsides for the most part.

 

[thezoltar]

Most guys still think they're 20 years old, even if they're 60. So you probably looked about 13 to them. Ignore them and have a good laugh. No matter how old you are there will always be a butthead close by at any range.

 

[Rembrandt]

I thought putting significance on what people think about others was characteristic of teen age girls....