F4GIB said;
If you said "not a complete solution," I think Oleg and I would agree.
But available counterforce is essential (like fire extinguishers at an oil refinery) even if, as it turns out, it's not used.
Armed citizens are no more a solution to the problem of a terrorist attack on a school then life jackets were a solution to the Titanic hitting an iceberg. An armed citizen in that situation may allow someone to escape. But we are kidding ourselves when we say that if we just arm the staff nothing bad will happen.
Mr. Designer said;
From the terrorist point of view, they are assuming that there will be zero armed citizens when they enter the school. Having just a few armed good guys could possibly change the situation resulting in fewer lives lost.
Yeah, that worked out well at Belsan:
http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ0606BESLAN_140-2
The terrorists appeared as if from nowhere. A military truck stopped near the school and men leapt from the cargo bed, firing rifles and shouting, "Allahu akhbar!" They moved with speed and certitude, as if every step had been rehearsed. The first few sprinted between the formation and the schoolyard gate, blocking escape. There was almost no resistance. Ruslan Frayev, a local man who had come with several members of his family, drew a pistol and began to fire. He was killed.
They will come prepared for armed resistance. They did at Belsan.
Deanimator said;
Quote:
A couple CCW holders and a school resource officer banding together to fight off the terrorists might make a good chapter in a techno-thriller or part of a movie script, but in real life, it's not going to happen. The terrorists will come in big enough numbers with enough firepower to render that type of defense hopeless.
Strange how that doesn't seem to happen in Israel.
That's why Israel is such a peaceful place and everyone lives in blissful harmony there now.
All terrorist attacks have stopped since many Israelis now carry guns? I must have missed that on the news....
Given the known facts of Beslan and Israeli practical experience, there's simply NO downside to arming the teachers, at least none which outweighs the need to resist ALL such atrocities on GP.
How do you suggest we change the culture in the US so that;
#1 the people accept the fact that their children will go to school with armed staff.
#2 and this will be the tough one, how are you going to change the institutional culture in the American education system so that teachers and
administrators will readily accept their new role as soldiers?
Arguments to the contrary sound like the arguments that it was good that nobody on the LIRR was armed when Patrick Ferguson shot it up, since people MIGHT have been shot in a "crossfire". Clearly such people prefer the CERTAINTY of a bullet in the head from a mass murderer than the POSSIBILITY of being shot by someone trying to stop him.
Please point out where I said that teachers and staff shouldn't be armed or shouldn't resist. The discussion here is about what to do about the problem of a Belsan type attack. I would hope we can do better for our kids then a simplistic
solution like arming the teachers and staff.
These guys' OPSEC is DREADFUL. I'm betting that their ability to adapt on their feet isn't much better.
So you are willing to bet the lives of innocent American schoolchildren on that? I don't think it's real smart to underestimate the enemy.
When your reaction to changed tactical conditions boils down to, "And then my imaginary friend performs a miracle", anything unexpected especially effective resistance, can derail the plan.
Ruslan Frayev sure managed to derail the plan at Belsan. Slowed them down by maybe 30 seconds. I'm not saying that what he did wasn't right, and I'm not saying he shouldn't have taken action. I'm just saying it wasn't effective.
A lot of the pooh poohing of armed resistance sounds an awful lot like, "Why do you need a gun? The criminal will always have the drop on you! Just do what the criminal tells you and you'll be alright! Why do you think we have police?"
Maybe you take some sort of comfort in the fact that someone resisted. That's great, but at the end of the day innocent people still died. In a scenario like we're talking about, most likely as many as would have died if there was no resistance.
Personally, I'd rather see a solution that actually has a chance of succeeding. I hardly think arming the staff is the best this country can come up with. Maybe you think it's ok and maybe even kind of neat for kids to go to a school that more closely resembles a prison then a school, I think that is giving in to the terrorists.
Correia said;
Jeff, brother, I've got to disagree with you a little bit. (and you know I've done a little bit as OpFor on this issue)
It is all about defense in depth.
Larry, the difference between defense in depth as OPFOR and defense in depth as a second thought is huge. When you were OPFOR you had the luxury of stacking magazines, straightening the pins on your grenades and waiting for the bad guys to come in. An armed staff as the defense against an attack like this will not have time to assemble and react. Their fight will be piecemeal and not layered at all.
I have never once stated that it was wrong to arm the staff. I'm saying that we are doing ourselves a disservice by thinking of this problem in such simplistic terms.
The standard internet firearms forum answer to every human problem is to
give everyone a gun and it will be alright. I don't think that giving every staff member in every school in America a gun will solve this problem. At best it may allow someone to escape. So it could be a part the solution. But arming the staff in our schools will never be the solution. The problem is much bigger and more complex then that.
When someone can explain to me how they are going to change American culture to accept turning our schools into armed camps, and how every teacher, administrator and maintenance person in every school in America is suddenly going to happily embrace their new role as armed protector, I'll accept that it's even possible. Eliminating the laws against concealed carry in schools and allowing those who choose to carry a firearm to legally carry it in the school environment is about the best we can hope for. And those weapons will be like the life preserver on a ship, not the avenging sword of truth, justice and the American way.
Jeff