Gun owners in WA have given up

[Old Dog]

The State senate (Democrat held) passed ESB 5078 yesterday. It's a "high-capacity" magazine ban bill. Goes to house next (Dems hold a majority in the house as well), and Governor Jay will happily sign it (oh, there'll be national press in attendence at the signing ceremony). It'll be law July 1, 2022.

The original bill termed "high-capacity" as magazines holding more than 17 rounds, but guess what? Yep, the ol' bait'n'switch, in the new version of the bill, high-capacity mags are those holding more than 10 rounds.

On my local and regional firearms forums, the consensus seems to be, "Well, good thing I have so many magazines" and "I'm now stocking up on 10-round magazines for my guns." Very few folks standing up and indicating they are still busy contacting their state reps and still fighting the good fight.

Judging by all the commentary I'm hearing and reading, this state's gun-owners have essentially given up and conceded the right to keep buying and using standard-capacity magazines. I just can't believe the acceptance I'm seeing. After the passage by voters of initiatives 594 and 1639, I was pretty disgusted, but today, I'm just sad.

I'll be loading up the moving van before the ink is dry on the sale paperwork of my house here. Sigh.

 

[HighRoadRover]

In VA, the state legislature turned barely red (GOP) when the new Governor came in, and some of the "gun control" laws passed by the last legislature (which was Democrat) are being walked back. So don't give up.

I don't think 10 round magazines provide any safety for anyone. Is a bad guy is going to decide he can't shoot up a party because he only has 15 round magazines, so he can't do it because he respects the magazine capacity law? I think he will use whatever mags he has, 10 or 15 or whatever, to do the crime - if he is a criminal intent on hurting people.

Here's the real problem: 80% of the people in NY City who were arrested in the past year for felonies involving firearms are walking around on the street.

Good luck in Washington State!

 

[Reinz]

Sorry to hear such shameful news, especially the bait and switch.

Biting my tongue so I don’t get banned.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

They dont call it the Left coast for nothing. Elections have consequences.

 

[redcon1]

so thankful I live in a 2A friendly state. I wouldn't live in a 2A unfriendly state. Going forward, I think it will be useful to keep close tabs on the key crime metrics in these states that are imposing draconian gun regulations. We all know that the crime rate is only going to get worse. At the very least, we'll be the ones who get to say "I told you so". Perhaps the undeniable ineffectuality of these laws will make useful counter arguments in future attempts to impose more gun control laws.

 

[Old Dog]

They dont call it the Left coast for nothing. Elections have consequences.

Many of the Dems in the swing districts are up for reelection. One suspects a lot of the Dems East of the Cascades will go down. But it'll be too late.

At the very least, we'll be the ones who get to say "I told you so".

But that never helps. I lived in California once, but I'm not gonna insult those left there by saying, "I told you so."

Washington State was, when I moved here, a state with some of the best -- and the best lack of -- gun laws in the country. In the past eight years, thanks to the ridiculous initiative process and the huge growth in the left-leaning population on the left side of the state, we've lost a hundred years of a formerly awesome gun culture here.

I keep hearing that ol' Jimmy Rodgers song that goes, "T for Texas, T for Tennessee" in my head...

 

[Bazoo]

Sorry to hear it.

 

[Insignificant bill]

In VA, the state legislature turned barely red (GOP) when the new Governor came in, and some of the "gun control" laws passed by the last legislature (which was Democrat) are being walked back. So don't give up.

I don't think 10 round magazines provide any safety for anyone. Is a bad guy is going to decide he can't shoot up a party because he only has 15 round magazines, so he can't do it because he respects the magazine capacity law? I think he will use whatever mags he has, 10 or 15 or whatever, to do the crime - if he is a criminal intent of hurting people.

Here's the real problem: 80% of the people in NY City who were arrested in the past year for felonies involving firearms are walking around on the street.

Good luck in Washington State!

Magazine capacity bans are feelgood crap. Criminals can still have them and magazine changes happen so fast that size is irrelevant. Therefore banning them is bs

 

[AlexanderA]

I just read the latest (substitute) version of the Senate bill. If passed through the House and signed by the Governor in its present form, it would take effect, as you say, on July 1st of this year.

It would ban the manufacture, sale, importation, etc., of over-ten-round magazines. But here's the key thing -- it says nothing about possession of these magazines.

You would have until July to stock up to your heart's content. Thereafter, since it doesn't ban possession, it would be essentially unenforceable. You could bring magazines in from Idaho and they would have no way of knowing that you didn't have them previously.

This is a typical "feel good" bill that does nothing. But, BTW, this is the sort of thing that would be challenged in court, and could well provide fodder for the Supreme Court to finally rule on the "classes of weapons" that are protected by the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Barbaroja]

This makes me sick to my stomach. Add this to the list of reasons to move outta the state.

 

[jonnyc]

"They dont call it the Left coast for nothing"

If we could only pack up MA, CT, NY, NJ, DE, MD and ship them off where they apparently belong.

 

[redcon1]

But that never helps. I lived in California once, but I'm not gonna insult those left there by saying, "I told you so."

It won't help in blue places like California but it will help in purplish places like Ohio and Michigan IMO. It never hurts to have rock solid truth supporting you position and that's all I'm saying. Look at Florida for example. After the Stoneman Douglas school shooting in February, 2018, Florida passed a red flag law in March, 2018 and then used it to infringe on the 2A rights of thousands of Floridians. What was the result? Murders increased by 14.7% between 2019 and 2020. This kind of evidence certainly doesn't hurt our position and the gun grabbers really don't have a good counter argument for this.

 

[Old Dog]

It won't help in blue places like California but it will help in purplish places like Ohio and Michigan IMO. It never hurts to have rock solid truth supporting you position and that's all I'm saying. Look at Florida for example. After the Stoneman Douglas school shooting in February, 2018, Florida passed a red flag law in March, 2018 and then used it to infringe on the 2A rights of thousands of Floridians. What was the result? Murders increased by 14.7% between 2019 and 2020. This kind of evidence certainly doesn't hurt our position and the gun grabbers really don't have a good counter argument for this.

I get what you're saying, but the big issue is that our opposition (the anti-gun folks) do not want to argue. Nor, at this point, do they need to. And they just don't care about the "rock solid truth." They just don't care about facts or statistics. It's all driven by emotion, money and the leftist control agenda. The party line is the party line, and if your side is the minority, you can have all the truth in the world on your side -- it simply doesn't matter. I hate to be such a naysayer and cynic, but we're running out of states to move to...

 

[redcon1]

I get what you're saying, but the big issue is that our opposition (the anti-gun folks) do not want to argue. Nor, at this point, do they need to. And they just don't care about the "rock solid truth." They just don't care about facts or statistics. It's all driven by emotion, money and the leftist control agenda. The party line is the party line, and if your side is the minority, you can have all the truth in the world on your side -- it simply doesn't matter. I hate to be such a naysayer and cynic, but we're running out of states to move to...

No, they don't care about the truth in places where they have a monopoly on power and therefore don't have to debate anyone to get their way. But here in Ohio, I'm happy to point out to anyone that cares (or doesn't) that despite having some of the toughest gun laws in the country, California still has more gun murders than any other state. One might expect that given their population but one might also expect that they'd at least be ranked #2 (if not lower) given all their onerous gun laws that were passed to reduce gun crime... allegedly. But they're not, they're #1.

 

[tinhorn]

I'll be loading up the moving van before the ink is dry on the sale paperwork of my house here.

This makes me sick to my stomach. Add this to the list of reasons to move outta the state.

Man, you guys sound just like my compatriots here in Massachusetts. Funny, I moved here from Washington about a decade ago.

Perhaps the undeniable ineffectuality of these laws will make useful counter arguments in future attempts to impose more gun control laws.

No...that's not how it works. Gun control, global warming, basic biology, reality has no place in today's clown world. Also funny, last night my youngest son was telling me he might get a Glock (unavailable in MA). One of his reasons was because 15-round mags are available for it.

 

[Barbaroja]

Plans of leaving have been in place long before this issue popped up. I love this state but the tightening restrictions and increase in fires all summer have left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth as of late. This is just another straw on the camels back.

 

[Insignificant bill]

It won't help in blue places like California but it will help in purplish places like Ohio and Michigan IMO. It never hurts to have rock solid truth supporting you position and that's all I'm saying. Look at Florida for example. After the Stoneman Douglas school shooting in February, 2018, Florida passed a red flag law in March, 2018 and then used it to infringe on the 2A rights of thousands of Floridians. What was the result? Murders increased by 14.7% between 2019 and 2020. This kind of evidence certainly doesn't hurt our position and the gun grabbers really don't have a good counter argument for this.

The problem is they don't care about facts. Or the Constitution or that we have a right to protect ourselves or that criminals use any size magazine they want and get guns anyway they can. That more people are killed by other methods.

 

[Will Munny]

No, they don't care about the truth in places where they have a monopoly on power and therefore don't have to debate anyone to get their way. But here in Ohio, I'm happy to point out to anyone that cares (or doesn't) that despite having some of the toughest gun laws in the country, California still has more gun murders than any other state. One might expect that given their population but one might also expect that they'd at least be ranked #2 (if not lower) given all their onerous gun laws that were passed to reduce gun crime... allegedly. But they're not, they're #1.




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Given that they are the most populated state that is not a meaningful statement. Notice Texas is #2, why? Because its the second most populated state. Florida is #3, its the third most populated state.
NY, which has very strict gun laws, is the fourth most populated state but is notably several slots below its expected position. Why? Pennsylvania and Illinois both have violent urban centers that generate a large number of murders, and the other three are warmer southern states that generally have higher crime rates due to climate as well as having larger urban centers like St. Louis, or Atlanta.
NY by contrast is cold and its largest city, NYC, has a notably low homicide rate.

 

[redcon1]

Given that they are the most populated state that is not a meaningful statement. Notice Texas is #2, why? Because its the second most populated state. Florida is #3, its the third most populated state.
NY, which has very strict gun laws, is the fourth most populated state but is notably several slots below its expected position. Why? Pennsylvania and Illinois both have violent urban centers that generate a large number of murders, and the other three are warmer southern states that generally have higher crime rates due to climate as well as having larger urban centers like St. Louis, or Atlanta.
NY by contrast is cold and its largest city, NYC, has a notably low homicide rate.

Right, but they have the strictest gun control laws in the country so if those gun control laws actually did what they were supposed to do, reduce gun crime, shouldn't they be at least #2? or even #3? especially considering that Florida and Texas have very loose gun laws by comparison. Do you really not see the meaning in this?

 

[redcon1]

No...that's not how it works. Gun control, global warming, basic biology, reality has no place in today's clown world. Also funny, last night my youngest son was telling me he might get a Glock (unavailable in MA). One of his reasons was because 15-round mags are available for it.

Yeah, I know how it all works. I'd still rather have the truth as an ally as opposed to an enemy. the truth still has sway where the...gun grabbers don't have a monopoly on power. There are still reasonable Americans out there that aren't going to be taken in by the BSers. Here in Ohio, for example, we have been steadily advancing the 2A for years now because Ohioans aren't freaking stupid.

 

[Will Munny]

Right, but they have the strictest gun control laws in the country so if those gun control laws actually did what they were supposed to do, reduce gun crime, shouldn't they be at least #2? or even #3? especially considering that Florida and Texas have very loose gun laws by comparison. Do you really not see the meaning in this?

shouldn't they be at least #2? or even #3?
Not necessarily. If a state is far more populous than another, it can have a significantly lower per capita homicide rate, yet still have a higher total count of homicides. For most purposes, looking at the total number of homicides is meaningless and statistically unsound.

Do you really not see the meaning in this?
Nope, not really any at all. Especially for the top 3 results, which are exactly what we would expect if the distribution was random across the entire US.

If we use per capita numbers the situation does not change much. California has lower per capita homicide rates than either Texas or Florida for each of the past 5 years of data up to 2020.

 

[danez71]

At the very least, we'll be the ones who get to say "I told you so".

What good does saying that to people that already know that?

Right, but they have the strictest gun control laws in the country so if those gun control laws actually did what they were supposed to do, reduce gun crime, shouldn't they be at least #2? or even #3? especially considering that Florida and Texas have very loose gun laws by comparison. Do you really not see the meaning in this?

CA has more than 25% population over TX but has under 20% more homicides according to your chart.

Do you really not see that?

I agree with your sentiment but your chart isn't really much support as it would indicate the tougher laws are working.

 

[redcon1]

shouldn't they be at least #2? or even #3?
Not necessarily. If a state is far more populous than another, it can have a significantly lower per capita homicide rate, yet still have a higher total count of homicides. For most purposes, looking at the total number of homicides is meaningless and statistically unsound.

sorry, but it isn't meaningless when you're also the state with the strictest gun control laws in the country. Those gun control laws clearly didn't do a gosh darned thing. We see the same thing in Washington D.C. and Baltimore, Maryland and Chicago Illinois. and yeah, we all know what the real problem is but that's irrelevant. they passed gun control laws in order to reduce gun crime and those gun control laws had no discernable effect on gun murders. they CAN NOT say: "look how effective our strict gun control laws are". They can't say it because it isn't true. Disarming law abiding, tax paying working class citizens DOES NOT REDUCE CRIME and you can't show that it does.

Do you really not see the meaning in this?

Nope, not really any at all. Especially for the top 3 results, which are exactly what we would expect if the distribution was random across the entire US.

Nope. Sorry but Texas and Florida have very loose gun laws compared to California and California still beats them in total homicides and total mass shootings. In fact, California has almost as many mass shootings as Florida and Texas combined according to statista and the California population is nowhere near the combined populations of Texas and Florida.[/QUOTE]

If we use per capita numbers the situation does not change much. California has lower per capita homicide rates than either Texas or Florida for each of the past 5 years of data up to 2020.

Per capita statistics can be useful but they can be used to deceive just as easily. You know what they say about the three kinds of lies-"lies, damned lies and statistics".

 

[redcon1]

What good does saying that to people that already know that?

Because it wins arguments.




CA has more than 25% population over TX but has under 20% more homicides according to your chart.

Do you really not see that?

Bulloney. if their gun control laws worked, they should have something more to show for it. And look at mass shootings, they have almost as many mass shootings as Texas and Florida combined. California has a population of 39.5 million. Texas and Florida have a combined population of 50.5 million. And yet, despite all of California's gun control laws that were passed to prevent mass shootings, California still has still had almost as many mass shootings as Texas and Florida combined.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

I suspect the venerable M1911 will rapidly gain popularity in WA.