Gun rights in Europe post Charlie Hebdo

[courtgreene]

This is the most interesting thing I've read on THR. Thanks everyone!

 

[Snejdarek]

I wonder what kind of SWAT operation would ensue if he took his race gun to school like I did back in the day. Or even leave it in his car, parked on school parking lot.

We have very strict safe storage requirements. It is either carry or store in a way that makes it unaccessible to other persons. Simple locker or car does not fill the definition. But hey, as long as it forces people to have guns on them, preferably with bullet in chamber, I don't complain.

 

[Cee Zee]

I've got news for them...those who believe this about liberty will eventually discover they have no liberty left because they gave it all away. Eventually their posterity will have to shed copious amounts of blood to regain it

The Europeans have mastered the art of surrendering liberty to their governments. How many times did they do it in the last century some with historic cosequences? Nazis, Commies, Socialists... they all came from Europe. Not all have surrendered willingly of course And the crazy thing is that they are still doing it knowing how bad it turned out in other places. They can't wait to let the government control every aspect of their lives. I guess they can live without fear of making a bad decision when the gubmit does all their thinking for them. And the sick thing is that it was been the Americans that have spent blood and treasure to save them from themselves at times. Yes I certainly know the Soviets were the real force behind defeating the Nazis but I haven't forgot that they were in on Hitler's plans at first. And I haven't forgotten that we had to face down the Soviets for 50 years on our own essentially. No other European country spent the money to stay ahead of the Soviet military. They laughed at us for doing it while enjoying all the benefits of our vigilance and spending the money they didn't have to spend on defense buying toys that they waved in our face as a sign of their superiority. Not all Europeans are like that obviously but too many are. The dang French embraced the Nazis for example or at least a lot of them did. Then they accepted untold immigration and guess who will end up fixing that problem for them? They can't do it. They don't have the will to do it. They haven't had the will to do anything since Napoleon. And what really, really makes me sick is that we fought 2 wars trying to stop the worldwide spread of communism and the dang Euro trash bashed us every day for doing it. I guess they missed that we did stop that cancer from spreading. I guess they missed how horrid things were when we finally pulled out of Asia. Apparently they don't care how many die in Cambodia. Hey they weren't French!

I think we have long since paid our debt to France for helping us fight off the Brits in our revolution. We don't owe those frogs squat. But when push comes to shove if we want the world to remain safe for our way of life WE will have to do the fighting again. The French raised a stink about the free press when in truth they don't even have a free press (you can deny the holocaust among other things in the press - you'll go to prison - I don't spend my time making up stupid excuses for the holocaust but it isn't freedom if you can't make any argument against the accepted POV and that isn't the only things you can't discuss - you can't deny the Armenian genocide either and you can't slander the Harkis - Muslim Algerian loyalists who served as auxiliaries to the French army during the Algerian war of independence - how far can this sort of thing go anyway - free speech should be used to counter stupid speech instead of making it criminal to say what the government says is wrong). And now the Pope has stuck his nose in saying we shouldn't insult the poor Muslims. We should expect a punch in the nose if we do. (insert sucking up sounds here - the Pope wants to hold sway over the Muslims too)

I know this is only tangentially connected to the gun issues here but we will end up fighting the battles again. It seems we always do. Maybe the one thing Obama accomplished is to put us in a position where we won't do the fighting. That leaves no one to do it. God help us all if that happens. I apologize to the mods for veering off topic here. Some things need to be said. This does go back to whether the French will change their ways to cope with their terrorism problem. They will change. They will get even softer. They already have. I thought I saw a flicker of hope in the demonstrations. Then I read what the Pope said this morning and I realized we are all doomed to either surrender to Islam or fight it to the death. I'll pick death every time. I've been dead. It wasn't so bad. (I died on the OR table Christmas day - so all you zombie haters can just lay off! ).

 

[Snejdarek]

The Europeans have mastered the art of surrendering liberty to their governments.

Until recently, I thought that this is something happening only in Western Europe and unlikely in countries with recent totalitarian experiences (ex-communist countries). But then the SHTF in Hungary and I just can't believe what is happening there. On the other hand, Europeans have long way to go as regards giving up liberties for "security" the way US has been doing it post 9/11.

The dang French embraced the Nazis for example or at least a lot of them did.

With the way their leadership was leading the WW1 it is hard to blame them. They basically lost a whole generation on completely pointless and idiotic attempts of trying to get into the German trenches.

And what really, really makes me sick is that we fought 2 wars trying to stop the worldwide spread of communism and the dang Euro trash bashed us every day for doing it.

I am too young to know anything about that, but I don't think that this was the situation post world wars or even during cold war. Also, the main strategy in cold war was, due to the huge superiority of communist forces, to atom bomb most of Europe, turn it into radioactive wasteland impassable for communist forces. Strategy very much like throwing tens of thousands of men on German machineguns in WW1...

Do you remember the overwhelming support US had when the Afghanistan started? And that quite some part of this support was still there when the invasion of Iraq started? The goodwill was there, but it was all lost, and you can't say it wasn't lost for good reasons.

Even if look away from how huge debacle it has become both in Afghanistan and Iraq, think of Poland. For how small country and economy it is, it gave really huge support in both wars. Its soldiers soaked quite a lot of land with their blood. The least they could hope for was lifting of visa, but that didn't happen.

I died on the OR table Christmas day - so all you zombie haters can just lay off!

I hope you are all well, and I am happy we can have this conversation here!

 

[sequins]

I heard on NPR just today a somewhat prominent Rabbi saying that French jews wanted the license to carry concealed weapons, that's a good sign. I too marvel at people who see the consequences of surrendering freedom and then immediately decide that the solution is to surrender their freedoms.

 

[Medusa]

Cee Zee, your understanding of the Europe and the WWII was a sad read. It s not that simple - evil nazis and americans saving the world. But that is OT.

At least the understanding is seeping in, that each and every one has to take care of their own safety and well-being, not just leaving to others. Or shortly, as the Clint Smith said - the police is minutes away if you need it right away.

 

[hq]

We have very strict safe storage requirements.[...]

It's the same here and everyone with five or more handguns or semiautomatic guns of any kind are required to store them in a SFS5850 / EN14450 or higher standard gun safe. All fully automatic firearms require a storage that has been approved on case by case basis by local police. Keeping guns in your car temporarily, for example when you're on a hunting trip and need to stop by in a store or restaurant, is generally ok. The law requires you to take necessary precautions to prevent guns from getting into wrong hands, which can get you in trouble if your guns are stolen; that used to be the only requirement earlier and it led to interesting legal interpretations.

CCW is a bit different than a race gun, of course. I used to carry for a while in university, but it got physically so uncomfortable that I eventually just left the gun in my car because the nearest campus parking lot was right next to our faculty. And back then I used to drive a ratty, lifted, matte green Range Rover that had padlocks for door locks and a bunch of ah-so-immature "You touch my truck, I *hump* your dog" -style stickers, which made break-in and theft highly unlikely...

 

[hq]

It s not that simple - evil nazis and americans saving the world. But that is OT.

I pretty much concur. We had the red army initiate an offensive at our eastern border November 30th, 1939 and there was little else to do than accept military aid from nazi Germany, even though volunteers from some allied and neutral countries like UK and Sweden arrived to help. Terrain, finnish soldiers being very familiar with high mobility hunting on skis and very popular civil guard movement (not to mention some very effective makeshift inventions like the Molotov Cocktail, the advancing soviet tanks were greeted with) gave an advantage over mechanized soviet troops, which were literally stopped on their tracks. That led Hitler to believe that soviets are inferior as soldiers and later caused many of the severe miscalculations in the german attempt to invade Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa.

Yes. It's OT in this thread.

At least the understanding is seeping in, that each and every one has to take care of their own safety and well-being, not just leaving to others. Or shortly, as the Clint Smith said - the police is minutes away if you need it right away.

But this isn't. I believe there has been a shift in how people think over the last 40-50 years. I've called it the kindergarten mentality. It consists of a combination of child-like beliefs of being constantly dependent on an authority, delusion that any authority (like government) is allmighty, always knows what's best for everyone and can be trusted to provide flawless security, forced sharing of "toys" (which is interpreted as wealth; socialism at its worst), being detached from realities of life like the food chain and death in general, and so on.

This is far more common in many european countries than it is in the US, even though so-called liberals (who are anything but what the term originally means) seem to have a stronghold in US government as well. I have no problem with people choosing the way they want to live themselves, that's the definition of freedom, but when people with overinflated delusions about society as a collective, government-led entity start shoving their principles down my throat, the least I can do is to protest and expose their motives as they are.

I have a very libertarian way of thinking, which may cause conflicts with some conservative values of society, but those conflicts are far fewer and far less serious than the ones I have with so-called liberals and their idea of their own brave new world where they reign supreme.

 

[Cee Zee]

I am too young to know anything about that, but I don't think that this was the situation post world wars or even during cold war.

I saw video on tv almost every day of demonstrations in Paris and around Europe against the US involvement in Vietnam. The PC brigade has re-written much of the history of that period but it wasn't history for me. It was current events at the time and believe me when you're looking at a trip over there yourself you pay attention. At least I did. I had friends go. I had family face the birthday lottery to see if they would have to go. I had friends lost there and their brothers that came home in part but for the most part their thoughts stayed there the rest of their lives. We didn't understand PTSD too well back then and it was the way our people acted when they came back that made us pay more attention. I even have a friend that lost his voice 40 years after the fact because of Agent Orange (according to his doctors). The guy was a great singer up to that point.

I think I made it pretty clear that it was the Russians who won the second war in Europe and I certainly didn't impugn all Europeans. I made a point to say that not all Europeans went down the road to totalitarianism. Please don't think I have something against "all" Europeans. I certainly don't. I know what happened there. I've put a lot of time into studying what happened and I know lots of people who were there (or I did anyway - most of them are gone now). It was the 3 systems I mentioned that have led too many into the land of total control by the government. Communism, Nazism, and socialism (yes I know the subtle differences). Too often on these boards people ignore where you say not everyone was guilty and jump to the worst conclusion they can. Read my post again friends. I never said "all" Europe did these things but there is a bad history of it there. And yes it has spread to the US. I don't like that either and too many of our people want to follow Alice down that rabbit hole.

As for what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq I think the media did a good job of distorting what happened there. It was a no win situation when we went there. We had to know that. So did everyone else that went along. There are too many of them unless you send an occupation force and the world has gone down that road already (once again it was the Europeans who controlled the middle east and generally made everyone there dislike the west - sorry but that's just true. History didn't start in the 90's. The US gets blamed for much of what happened during the colonial period in the middle east and bumbling politicians like Jimmy Carter ensured that all sides hated us first and foremost. I knew people from Iran before the Islamic takeover. My college campus had the highest population of them of any college in the US. We saw the demonstrations and the idiotic policies of Carter that led to all sides hating us. That was the start of our modern problems there but there was bad blood going back to the days of colonial rule and it was GB, France and Italy that brought about much of that bad blood.

You should know that I admire many Europeans for what they have come through and how they did it. I understand the position Finland was in for example. I certainly know about the Winter War. I know what the French did in WWI and what they tried to get the US to go along with. That war was the one where the US really bailed out Europe in spite of the status quo of the military forces there. If we had stuck with their tactics we'd still be fighting that war. You might learn it different where you live but there are countless reasons for that. I know what actually happened. I've made my living on knowing such things in fact. Most people have forgotten the things of WWI but they greatly affected WWII. And I don't care what anyone says, the US made a big difference helping out in WWI in many ways.

So again please don't generalize what you think I said. Read what I actually said. It's too easy to read one sentence and assume the rest. This post is too long now. But I won't let it be thought that I blame Europe for the ills of the world. But it was the birthplace of some terrible ideas. Certainly it wasn't the only place where terrible ideas came to life. The Japanese cooked up some real junk too and now the off shoots of the great European ideas (particularly communism) have been just as creative in threatening the world. And of course we have the much bigger threat to face which we really must face as allies or we will lose. The Islamo-nuts are coming for us all. If we don't stand together we will fall individually. That's why it was so rotten that Obama didn't send anyone to that deal in France. I don't think he wants us to win to be honest but that is OT.

My "sad" POV will remain as it is until I see evidence that changes it. That's how I got it in the first place. Evidence. Like it or lump it I guess. But at least read what I actually wrote instead of generalizing. I've seen too many Europeans be touchy about the history of the last century. It is what it is. We certainly haven't been perfect by any means but we do better than most. "Not that simple"? Does anyone really think the whole thing can be explained in a couple of paragraphs in a forum? Sad or not what I said is true. And taking a pot shot at my views then sailing off saying they are another topic is hardly a complete rendition of the history of a century of warfare for the entire world. Am I just supposed to reply "I'm rubber and your glue" or something?

I didn't insult anyone that didn't deserve insulting. I certainly didn't insult Finland or Poland or any of eastern Europe except the Russians. Why people want to fly off the handle thinking I slighted them when I never said any such thing is beyond me. Did you not see that I said it didn't apply to all of Europe? Did you really think I included your particular country when it clearly didn't invent any of those evil systems?

BTW I don't care what excuse the French had. They shouldn't have helped the Germans enslave their own people and that's what the Vichy did. Obviously the Resistance didn't fall into that trap.

One last thing. I won't argue the history of the world here with people who seem too touchy to me and who obviously didn't read my complete comments. If you were guilty you know who you are. If you weren't why do you think I believe you are? Again I plainly said NOT ALL were guilty. If you can't find what you want from me in this post buy my book when it comes out (which will be never). Here are my exact words in case you didn't bother reading my post again. I said,

"Not all have surrendered willingly of course."

If you have to ask if I think you fit in that category that's your problem. You know if you did.

 

[Medusa]

I've heard stories, also from Russia, that the WWII had nothing to do with evil nazis trying to conquer the Old World, but rather the commies wanting to do that. Seeing the losses during the first days right at the western border, specifically the equipment (bridging vehicles, amphibious tanks etc, all necessary for the landscape west of the soviet's borders) and the amount of these, it tends to seem that the evil nazis rather jumped the gun and might even saved the western europe the freedom it has today. At least that I have already seen to be said. If to look at the proof to these claims - who knows. The commies weren't any angels, but a friggin' treacherous mongols at the time.

My country got the freedom with war, during the WWI time, when the Bolshevik scum was leaving in a hurry and before the Landeswehr got in, and it was soon put up to the test when we had to fight both the Bolsheviks and Landeswehr, and won.

Dear Cee Zee, there was no attack on your person, just that the Eastern part of Europe, like Baltics and Finns, have a different view on the classical evil vs good theme.

I have to say that the US played a great part in the WWII as well, and was behind the soviet's victory by providing the logistics - food, trucks etc. Soviets were soldiers for s**t and had only the numbers (to toss away) and the operational depth of the land (and weather) on their side, besides the mentioned logistic aid. Just a word, from a very wary eye, everything that comes from Russia (especially info) must be watched carefully, because it is doctored and full of BS. Just a tidbit, you know that the info of having US aid was kept secret from even the soviet soldiers, they were told that those marking USA meant Ubivayet Sukinsona Adolfa (I might mistake in spelling) - kill the f**er Adolf.

You're right that the Europeans tend to be sheepish. I am not an historian, but I would figure that the long time of living under a a monarchy, one sort or another, does it's work. I have seen it here, during the 'mere' half a century of soviet oppression, occupation and colonization. That thing - 90 % of new russian minority (the post-WWII colonists) is 5th echelon, was told by a russian estonian, and that he/she is more scared of them than native estonians. It gets to your brains. And the relatively long time of peace and prosperity makes one think that the freedom and good life is a god-given right, something to be given - I'm worth it because I am" instead of fighting for it. Freedom is not free, just a personal opinion.

 

[hq]

The commies weren't any angels, but a friggin' treacherous mongols at the time.

They, in fact, still are. No matter how much Russia has freed private ownership of companies and investments in the country, the government is very much in control of everything and if you make a single mistake, everything will be taken away from you. Not that much different from the soviet days, only difference is that businesses are nominally owned by individuals instead of kolkhozes and sovkhozes. That's one of many reasons I'm very reluctant to invest in Russia or have even a sales office there. As an estonian, you probably know very well what I mean.

One thing that has bothered me is that during last few years it has become increasingly difficult to get a permit for 12.7mm/.50cal and larger rifles. Nobody seems to be sure why, but there are persistent rumors that anything that's capable of taking out an armored russian personnel carrier seems to be on a "list". There are a number of russian (let's be honest: soviet) sympathizers in finnish parliament, government and among high brass government officials so while it's still unlikely, some might think of that as paving the way for russian "liberation" forces. That might be tin foil hat material, but in the worst case scenario, it might not.

I'm not sure if Putin and his henchmen would be crazy enough to take military action against a country where 85-90% of adult male population are trained for independent, group level and platoon level guerrilla warfare. Most of which are qualified expert marksmen and several thousands are fully trained snipers. Offensive war might not be a big deal for modern day Russia, keeping their occupying forces, especially officers alive might be...

 

[hamp sandwich]

I have to say, it is most interesting to read what those of you across the pond have to share. Not to say that my fellow Americans don't have interesting thoughts and opinions. It's just rare for some of us to hear pro-gun conversations from other countries, and not just pro-gun, but pro-rights.

I do believe that this thread is one of the most enlightening threads that I've read in a long time.

Snejdarek, thank you for starting the thread, and thank you all for participating.

I have to confess, my original vote was "more gun control will be introduced", but I do have hopes that something better will come of it.

 

[Cee Zee]

Dear Cee Zee, there was no attack on your person, just that the Eastern part of Europe, like Baltics and Finns, have a different view on the classical evil vs good theme.

I have more respect for the eastern European countries than most of the west. The Scandinavian countries also get my respect. They have all had their moments but they didn't push their weight around on others. I certainly know that WWI was started in eastern Europe but who wouldn't rebel under the conditions the people of that region were placed in by the Austro-Hungarian Empire on the Serbs and the Slavs of Bosnia and Serbia. The Pig War alone was enough reason for the Serbs to want to throw off the shackles of the Austro-Hungarians. Again I see that as western Europe (Austria mainly) pushing around it's neighbors to the east. They even made the Serbs give land back to Turkey after the Serbs had driven them out. They stopped trade between Serbia and France because they didn't want the country becoming too strong economically. Again I am no big fan of the Hapsburg dynasties.

And it is certainly true that Europeans became used to heavy handed governments pushing the people around. There's still a lot of that going on there IMO. Here in America we don't get that. I guess we have a strong independent streak because we have had so much success dealing with pushy powers like the French, Spain and England. We took care of business with the Mexicans too. Now it seems our government wants to merge with Mexico which is not something most of the people I know want. It's something politicians want and people who want uber cheap labor. it's a pressure cooker here over that situation and I see bad things being possible because of it. Once certain groups find out how badly they were sold out by their own things are liable to get really ugly. You can guess who I mean. But this isn't a politics board so this aspect of the thread needs to stop. Mainly I just wanted to point out that we aren't used to knuckling under and that is what drives our support of the 2A more than anything else. Americans used to be a feisty bunch and they still can be I imagine. I hope it doesn't come to that but if it does I want more than a rock in my hand to protect my family.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

All of this is JMHO:

The Europeans, for the most part, have abandoned the Judeo-Christian belief system of individual accountability and the value of human life. Just look at the abortion rate of Europe and especially Russia. It's appalling.

I had a discussion with my brother about all this. About 1 year ago we talked about the decline of the Caucasian population in Europe and America, that is, the low birth rate compared to other ethnicities. I told him to look at the abortion rate over the last 40 years of the Caucasian population in the USA and in places like England as to one MAJOR reason for the declining birth rate.

Anyhow, that's a little off topic, my main point is, God is dead in the majority states of Europe and the people are little more than sheep lead by the state. This is one reason why Islam is taking root all over Europe.

The Europeans happily sacrifice individual freedom for their perceived conception of security. It's very ironic because Europe has proven over and over and over again that you CANNOT trust the state.

So I voted that most European states, especially places like France, will restrict even further, the rights of its citizens to arm and protect themselves.

 

[Snejdarek]

All of this is JMHO:

The Europeans, for the most part, have abandoned the Judeo-Christian belief system of individual accountability and the value of human life. Just look at the abortion rate of Europe and especially Russia. It's appalling.

I had a discussion with my brother about all this. About 1 year ago we talked about the decline of the Caucasian population in Europe and America, that is, the low birth rate compared to other ethnicities. I told him to look at the abortion rate over the last 40 years of the Caucasian population in the USA and in places like England as to one MAJOR reason for the declining birth rate.

Anyhow, that's a little off topic, my main point is, God is dead in the majority states of Europe and the people are little more than sheep lead by the state. This is one reason why Islam is taking root all over Europe.

The Europeans happily sacrifice individual freedom for their perceived conception of security. It's very ironic because Europe has proven over and over and over again that you CANNOT trust the state.

So I voted that most European states, especially places like France, will restrict even further, the rights of its citizens to arm and protect themselves.

Well, god certainly is dead in the Czech Republic and Estonia, both with over 80% atheist population (by FAR the highest percentage in Europe). At the same time people in these countries enjoy much higher standard of freedoms - from freedom of speech through religion to gun rights (those being the only two EU countries with shall issue CC and moreover also may issue access to select fire rifles) than those living in religious European countries. Not to mention basically non-existent muslim population.

As regards abortion, I don't know about Estonia, but the atheist Czech Republic has also one of the lowest abortion rates from countries in the region, and that even when all the "abortion tourists" from christian countries like Poland and Hungary (with limited access to legal abortion) are taken into account. Sure, it is mostly due to use of contraception and condoms, things that youngsters in Poland and Hungary are forbidden to learn about, but hey, I personally prefer contraception & legal abortion over praying & shabby illegal abortion clinics any day.

And as it happens, the one of the worst gun laws in Europe may be found in Poland, the most christian country in Europe. If you believe in god and you think there is a correlation between faith and access to firearms, then your god must have a weird sense of humor regarding Europe.

In general, I think that in most European countries the tightening of gun laws in the 1980s-90s didn't take place on the background of a barter for perceived safety (like it did in England), but more on some kind of idiotic idea that guns don't belong to evolved cultural society. With crime being almost non-existent in vast parts of Europe by the end of 1980s and Warsaw pact becoming a joke instead of a threat, there was, sadly, little opposition to making firearms inaccessible to general population.

 

[Cee Zee]

Religion took a beating in eastern Europe because of the battles between the Muslims, the Catholics and the Protestants. They were actually the most Protestant area of Europe until the Holy Roman Empire forced people to convert. The Muslims did the same thing so that being a Protestant was like being suicidal. It's a shame that corrupt forces that mix God and politics have caused such problems.

BUT, after the fall of the Soviet Union there was a huge rush to reclaim Christianity in Russia. Some friends of mine moved to St. Petersburg to become missionaries. Thousands upon thousands of people joined their church. They had non-stop worship services because they couldn't fit everyone in their space at one time. It was like that all over Russia really. I think since then that some have become disillusioned but Christianity is certainly not dead there. The Russians were traditionally Orthodox of course so there was some conflict between what the old people remembered and what the mostly protestant missionaries believed. But it wasn't that big of a problem.

I really feel sorry for eastern Europe on this front. They are missing the most important aspect of life. I won't say any more because this isn't the place for it. But I can assure you, life is better when you're serving God. I know both sides of that coin and I'll never go back. In fact I would be dead if not for a miracle that was clearly a miracle and clearly from God. That's a long story and I'll tell it to anyone interested but only in a PM.

I don't see any connection between guns and religion though. Not in eastern Europe or anywhere else.

 

[hq]

Anyhow, that's a little off topic, my main point is, God is dead in the majority states of Europe and the people are little more than sheep lead by the state. This is one reason why Islam is taking root all over Europe.

Please. I see where this is heading and we shouldn't even think about going there. Religion (any religion for that matter) may have some sociological, psychological and behavioral aspects but the vast majority of natural tendencies of human social behavior has been monopolized by thousands of different institutional religions throughout the history of mankind. I have the highest respect for everyone's individual beliefs and belief system, but once religion gets organized and hierarchical and starts limiting people's lives beyond objective norms of society in any way, I reserve the right to exercise extreme, well-founded prejudice.

One of my american confreres in the 30's and 40's was somewhat famous for joking that the best business in the world is to start a religion. He wasn't really a hypnotherapist but a hypnotist and I still use some of his routines when I really want to make a deep impression on individuals who think hypnotism - even sheer brainwashing in the very meaning of the word - is a trick, joke or just playing along, instead of a very real medical and physiological phenomenon. Some of the notes he made about church services are still used in clinical hypnotherapy training today. He was called L. Ron Hubbard. He's got plenty of extremely dedicated followers who are just as "wrong" from a christian perspective as christians are from muslim perspective, or muslims are from hindu perspective, or hindus are from buddhist perspective and so on. It took him all of a couple of decades and some basic knowledge of how human subconscious works to accomplish that. And I know exactly how it's done.

So, let's keep religion out of this conversation. It's a powerful tool to control people, for good or evil, but I rather keep it a matter of personal faith - or lack thereof - than praise or demonize any religion only because what its spiritual leaders are using it for.

 

[Kabal]

Anyhow, that's a little off topic, my main point is, God is dead in the majority states of Europe and the people are little more than sheep lead by the state. This is one reason why Islam is taking root all over Europe.

The Europeans happily sacrifice individual freedom for their perceived conception of security. It's very ironic because Europe has proven over and over and over again that you CANNOT trust the state.

So I voted that most European states, especially places like France, will restrict even further, the rights of its citizens to arm and protect themselves.

I've hesitated to reply to your post, because religion is usually a no-go, but after re-reading the rules I think it's okay to tackle the subject here. It might give our American friends some insight into the European way of thinking.


The correlation between gun-owners and religious people is an American phenomenon. There is no logical link between being an atheist and being anti-gun or anti-freedom.

Actually, religious people have something in common with the anti-gun movement in that they base their beliefs on emotions rather than reason and scientific evidence. Of course, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't harm any others or force your beliefs onto them (as the anti-gun movement does).


Also, when talking about liberty and freedom, you should keep in mind that many European countries infringe on their populations' rights in certain ways, but offer more freedom than the USA in other respects.
It boggles my mind that a 20-year-old can't buy alcohol in the US, or that a twenty-something-year-old female teacher can be charged with statutory rape for having a consentual sexual relationship with a 17-year-old guy.

In Germany, it's perfectly normal for 16-year-olds of both sexes to get drunk whenever they want to and have sex with whomever they choose. In the Netherlands, smoking marijuana seems to be no big deal.
These examples might also be used to underline my point that being atheist has nothing to with being anti-freedom, just like being Christian has nothing to do with being pro-freedom. Many conservative American Christians would label the freedoms I mentioned "immoral".


By the way, a big thank you to Snejdarek. I've followed your posts with interests. They make me feel like the Czech Republic might be some sort of "best of both worlds" when compared to Germany and the US.


Edit: Sorry@hq. I had started typing my post before you made your last post. You're right, it might be better to focus on (gun) rights and relegate discussions about religion to PMs.

 

[Tommygunn]

It boggles my mind that a 20-year-old can't buy alcohol in the US, or that a twenty-something-year-old female teacher can be charged with statutory rape for having a consentual sexual relationship with a 17-year-old guy.

Well, there are two points here; 1.) Age 17 is still considered a "child" in American law. Children cannot consent to sex. 2.) The teacher/student relationship puts the child in the unfortunate position of being (atleast in theory) "compeled" to have sex with the teacher. It becomes an unfair relationship. This unfortunatly seems more apparent when the teacher is male and the student female. When this situation is reversed, unfortunatly social prejudices come into play in a different way --- the guys tend to snicker and atleast think "why didn't I have a teacher like that 30 years ago when I was in school."

I'm not sure I think there's much of a relationship between being religious and a gun owner in America. Generally, liberals seem to be more "antigun" while conservatives more "progun" but even that is at best a crude generality.

16 year olds having legal sex in Germany? Your jungen grow up schnell!

 

[Kabal]

Well, there are two points here; 1.) Age 17 is still considered a "child" in American law. Children cannot consent to sex. 2.) The teacher/student relationship puts the child in the unfortunate position of being (atleast in theory) "compeled" to have sex with the teacher. It becomes an unfair relationship. This unfortunatly seems more apparent when the teacher is male and the student female. When this situation is reversed, unfortunatly social prejudices come into play in a different way --- the guys tend to snicker and atleast think "why didn't I have a teacher like that 30 years ago when I was in school."

I'm not sure I think there's much of a relationship between being religious and a gun owner in America. Generally, liberals seem to be more "antigun" while conservatives more "progun" but even that is at best a crude generality.

16 year olds having legal sex in Germany? Your jungen grow up schnell!

Thanks for the explanation.

16 is the official age of consent in Germany, although sex between an adult and a 14- or 15-year-old is not a punishable offense unless it can be proven that the boy/girl in question is somehow not "developed" enough psychologically.

Children/teenagers are raised differently here. At age 16, they can enter many clubs until midnight, and sometimes even longer if they're accompanied by an adult and their parents permit it.
A group of 17-year-olds drinking beer on a park bench at 11 p.m. might get nothing but a friendly nod from a police offiver walking by.

It's perfectly normal for 16- or 17-year-old girls to have relationships with guys in their mid-20s. It doesn't hurt them at all, since they are not raised to have a bad conscience about having sex.


Another good example to show that Americans and Europeans/Germans have completely different ideas of what's acceptable for children/teenagers:

In Germany, many violent computer games have been virtually banned, and many others more or less censored. Some violent American films are cut even in their "FSK 18" (adult-only) cinema version.
However, the film "Hangover" is rated "FSK 12" (suitable for age 12 an up) and is considered nothing but a light comedy. Whenever I tell someone that it's rated "R" in the US they think I'm crazy.

Oh but we are getting off-topic, aren't we?

 

[hq]

Well, there are two points here; 1.) Age 17 is still considered a "child" in American law. Children cannot consent to sex.

It's interesting how the age limits vary by country. In most european countries 15 or 16 is the legal age of consent to sex. Vatican raised its from 12 to 18 a couple of years ago, because of public pressure. Most common drinking age in Europe is 18 but some countries have a lower one. Driver's license can be had at the age of 18, with some exceptions at 17 or 16. This kind of variation is a prime example of social value differences between the US and Europe.

One thing that horrifies many of my US buddies is sex ed. European and especially scandinavian attitude towards sex is highly liberal. What 11-13 year old kids are commonly shown in classes would easily qualify as hardcore porn in the US. And I mean easily, that stuff is very graphic and anatomic including close-ups of everything and the only thing missing is gross overacting common in commercial pornography.

Back to the subject of guns, only four years ago you could have any hunting or sporting firearm permit at the age of 15 in Finland. I got my first handgun permit at 15, a long time ago, and my son got a bunch of permits to (my) guns after his 15th birthday, including a few SBR:s and SBS:s. Now it's quite a bit different; 18 is the minimum for all guns. On top of that, you'll need a written statement from approved "firearm instructor", stating that you've practised for 2 years in a supervised environment, if you want to buy a handgun. That's complete BS; I've had handguns since mid 80's, I currently have... hmm, I'm not even sure how many handgun permits, literally dozens, and after the law was changed I haven't been able to apply for a new handgun permit at all. Only because I have a shooting range of my own and for the most part I wouldn't be caught dead at a public one, having a "firearm instructor" in his 20's to "supervise" my shooting.

At least my wife is happy, I don't show up at home with YET another handgun - I just had to have - about once a month like I used to. Then again, my rifle and shotgun safes have been getting crowded ever since...

 

[Snejdarek]

Just for comparison: Czech age of consent is 15. Alcohol - 18, but in reality most 16 year olds drink regularly (at least on weekends if not more often). Police sometimes sweeps pubs and bars and hands hefty fines to owners, but social drinking is too ingrained in Czech society, especially with the world's highest per capita beer consumption. Drugs - marijuana 5 plants/15 grams legal (there is a small fine but you will never get fined unless you start blowing it intentionally in a cop's face); sale is however illegal. So Czechs can grow it but can't buy it, Dutch can't grow it but can get it in a coffee shop. Doesn't make much sense? Kind of like with varying firearm laws, huh? Small amounts of other drugs also OK (e.g. 1 gram of cocaine, 2 grams of meth, etc.). Prostitution also legal (pimping is not).

Basically you can do anything short of straight criminal and the state will keep its nose out of your business. Something quite rare in Western Europe.

Now it's quite a bit different; 18 is the minimum for all guns.

It is 15 here for sport shooters (must be member of a club, from 18 only needs to tick "sport shooting" on the license form) and 16 for hunters.

Only because I have a shooting range of my own and for the most part I wouldn't be caught dead at a public one

Do you need any special licensing for a private shooting range in Finland? Here we can shoot only at licensed ranges - which makes sense with high population density and right to pass through any unfenced property, but having some easier process of approval of private ranges would still be great.

 

[hq]

Do you need any special licensing for a private shooting range in Finland? Here we can shoot only at licensed ranges

Yes and no. Commercial and large shooting ranges require licensing. Smaller ones (<10.000 rounds per year) can be registered as shooting ranges with less paperwork but it's not mandatory. Shooting is also allowed everywhere except in residential areas, which means that if the area is officially zoned as building ground for a permanent residence, shooting outdoors is prohibited. Personal indoor ranges aren't regulated; I have a 15m range in my basement, less than 4 miles from downtown Helsinki, and a 100m unregistered outdoor range at my summer house half an hour drive from home.

There has been some pressure to tighten the requirements for shooting ranges, but it seems that the excuse anti-gun lobby uses for that, lead, is about to fall through. Metallic lead doesn't dissolve in any pH level found in nature, not even the worst acid rain ever measured, so there's no risk of groundwater contamination. I have to admit, they've been pretty creative finding one excuse after another to make gun ownership, shooting and hunting as difficult as possible. One of my pet peeves is the EU "Natura 2000" project. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of acres of great hunting ground has been included in it, some of it voluntarily, because one of the main principles was that hunting will be permitted on all Natura 2000 land.

Guess what? They lied.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Well, god certainly is dead in the Czech Republic and Estonia, both with over 80% atheist population (by FAR the highest percentage in Europe). At the same time people in these countries enjoy much higher standard of freedoms - from freedom of speech through religion to gun rights (those being the only two EU countries with shall issue CC and moreover also may issue access to select fire rifles) than those living in religious European countries. Not to mention basically non-existent muslim population.

As regards abortion, I don't know about Estonia, but the atheist Czech Republic has also one of the lowest abortion rates from countries in the region, and that even when all the "abortion tourists" from christian countries like Poland and Hungary (with limited access to legal abortion) are taken into account. Sure, it is mostly due to use of contraception and condoms, things that youngsters in Poland and Hungary are forbidden to learn about, but hey, I personally prefer contraception & legal abortion over praying & shabby illegal abortion clinics any day.

And as it happens, the one of the worst gun laws in Europe may be found in Poland, the most christian country in Europe. If you believe in god and you think there is a correlation between faith and access to firearms, then your god must have a weird sense of humor regarding Europe.

In general, I think that in most European countries the tightening of gun laws in the 1980s-90s didn't take place on the background of a barter for perceived safety (like it did in England), but more on some kind of idiotic idea that guns don't belong to evolved cultural society. With crime being almost non-existent in vast parts of Europe by the end of 1980s and Warsaw pact becoming a joke instead of a threat, there was, sadly, little opposition to making firearms inaccessible to general population.

I never made the direct link between Christianity and gun ownership, I made the direct link between the Judeo-Christian ethos of personal responsibility as opposed to giving up freedoms to the state. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Religion took a beating in eastern Europe because of the battles between the Muslims, the Catholics and the Protestants. They were actually the most Protestant area of Europe until the Holy Roman Empire forced people to convert. The Muslims did the same thing so that being a Protestant was like being suicidal. It's a shame that corrupt forces that mix God and politics have caused such problems.

BUT, after the fall of the Soviet Union there was a huge rush to reclaim Christianity in Russia. Some friends of mine moved to St. Petersburg to become missionaries. Thousands upon thousands of people joined their church. They had non-stop worship services because they couldn't fit everyone in their space at one time. It was like that all over Russia really. I think since then that some have become disillusioned but Christianity is certainly not dead there. The Russians were traditionally Orthodox of course so there was some conflict between what the old people remembered and what the mostly protestant missionaries believed. But it wasn't that big of a problem.

I really feel sorry for eastern Europe on this front. They are missing the most important aspect of life. I won't say any more because this isn't the place for it. But I can assure you, life is better when you're serving God. I know both sides of that coin and I'll never go back. In fact I would be dead if not for a miracle that was clearly a miracle and clearly from God. That's a long story and I'll tell it to anyone interested but only in a PM.

I don't see any connection between guns and religion though. Not in eastern Europe or anywhere else.

When Christianity becomes the state religion, it's no better than Islam. This is why there always needs to be a separation of church and state. One of the things that MOST people don't understand is that the US separates the church from the state in order to protect both the church and the state. That is the state cannot tell the church what to do and the church cannot dictate what the state can do. What the church can do, under the first amendment is speak it's mind. However, the church and state are definitely separate.