Gun show greed is great for Walmart!
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beatledog7
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Justin,
No, it is not ok to sell broken items and pass them off as working. That's straight up deceit, and nobody is advocating that. Keep in mind that if a seller offers an item "as is," the buyer who knows the product can make a rational decision whether to buy based on his experience. The buyer who doesn't have that experience still has the right to say "no thanks."
"Ripped off" is not what she would have been. She might have made an unwise purchase, but that's all.
Let's say she is driving across the country and blows out a tire, uses the donut to limped into Podunk, USA for a replacement, and finds R and O Tire Shop. R and O charge her full retail for a tire they usually sell to locals for 80% of retail, charge for nitrogen inflation even though she didn't ask for it, tell her she needs a full alignment even though she doesn't, and then tell her she'll have to stay overnight because her car can't be done today, even though it is done already, and send her to their cousin's hotel for the night, where she gets charged double the normal room rate. Now she's been ripped off. See the difference?
There is an immense gulf between taking advantage of a customer--ripping her off--and simply leveraging a customer's willingness to buy at the asking price.
No, it is not ok to sell broken items and pass them off as working. That's straight up deceit, and nobody is advocating that. Keep in mind that if a seller offers an item "as is," the buyer who knows the product can make a rational decision whether to buy based on his experience. The buyer who doesn't have that experience still has the right to say "no thanks."
"Ripped off" is not what she would have been. She might have made an unwise purchase, but that's all.
Let's say she is driving across the country and blows out a tire, uses the donut to limped into Podunk, USA for a replacement, and finds R and O Tire Shop. R and O charge her full retail for a tire they usually sell to locals for 80% of retail, charge for nitrogen inflation even though she didn't ask for it, tell her she needs a full alignment even though she doesn't, and then tell her she'll have to stay overnight because her car can't be done today, even though it is done already, and send her to their cousin's hotel for the night, where she gets charged double the normal room rate. Now she's been ripped off. See the difference?
There is an immense gulf between taking advantage of a customer--ripping her off--and simply leveraging a customer's willingness to buy at the asking price.
JustinJ
Member
Citing a more extreme example of ripping somebody off does not mean the first example isn't. If a repair man comes out to work on an old ladies HVAC unit and sells her on a bunch of work she doesn't need he can easily argue that it was her job to research operation and maintenance of HVAC systems. An ethical service technician on the other hand would say all your really need is repair X.
When a person seeks a vendor to do business with in a specialized field that he or she knows little about, be it car repair or firearms, they are expecting to be treated fair and guided to a wise purchase. An ethical gun dealer would not only price his products fairly relative to market value, but also advise the customer to purchase what he or she needs. Not what will make him the most money. I've had many experiences in which a vendor has told me "yeah, you could buy that more expensive widget but in reality all you need is this". I've also had sales people tell me i can get a better deal going up the road to another shop because they don't carry the product that best meets my needs. By doing so they build trust from customers for future purchases and gain business by word of mouth. If a person buys something and then later learns how much they were overcharged you can be certain they will not return to said store and may even advise friends and family to shop elsewhere. So not only is taking advantage customers wrong, it is also a poor business model.
silicosys4
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^ and this is how our free market works. IMO there is no such thing as "overcharging" for a commodity. If its too expensive, don't buy it. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. If you find out its half the price elsewhere, send your business elsewhere next time. People who "gouge" the customer will usually sell less guns than people who don't. Supply and demand will iron out the wrinkles, and we are all adults and should know that when something is in abnormally high demand, with a low supply, we should expect that some sellers will ask abnormally high prices, and we should expect some people to be willing to pay them.
If its too expensive for you, don't buy it. If the value is not there for you, don't buy it.
We don't reward someone for doing less research than the next person, and we don't reward someone for impulsively pulling money out of their pocket without knowing what we are getting or paying for.
"Buyers remorse" will always exist.
If its too expensive for you, don't buy it. If the value is not there for you, don't buy it.
We don't reward someone for doing less research than the next person, and we don't reward someone for impulsively pulling money out of their pocket without knowing what we are getting or paying for.
"Buyers remorse" will always exist.
Sam Cade
Member
So what is a reasonable margin of profit for a seller of fine weaponry (or haberdashery) and how did you reach this number?
beatledog7
Member
Justin, you're an idealist. I hope you find this world you dream of--it isn't this one. The gun dealer you describe may have once existed, but he has gone under due to his lack of--where was it we started--oh yes: GREED.
I'm not saying gun dealers or any other merchant should be excused for treating customers unfairly, but it seems you would have us all accept your definition of fairness without question. I challenge your ideal, as do many others. Have you ever run a business? Have you ever been accountable for making it profitable, and I don't mean for just building a base of loyal customers while the red ink mounts. I mean showing a profit in every accounting period or being called to task as to why you don't, being forced to cut costs (i.e., lay off employees) so you can make a profit, etc.
It is not a poor business model to build or leverage a clientele--whether one-time or recurring--that is willing to pay more to buy from me. That's how I would see it. He came to my store or my table and asked to buy a widget. I didn't twist his arm. Posting a price of $XXX for a widget that my competitor might sell for $XXX-50--and allowing a customer to actually pay that amount for it--does not make me a con artist or rip-off merchant. It means I sold the same model for $50 more than he did, and it means...
...I'll still be open for business tomorrow.
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Reloadron
Contributing Member
Any given gun on any given day is worth what someone is able to sell it for and no more and no less. The acceptable margin of profit lays with the seller. It does not get any simpler.
How many here who are so quick to condemn gun show dealers have actually been on both sides of the tables? Spare me all this "Fair Market Value" nonsense. If I place a like new Colt Government Series 70 on my table for $1,000 you can either pay my asking price, try for a lower price, or simply move on and try and find the gun at another table for less. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to buy the gun for $1,000. It does not get any simpler.
For those who choose to complain and whine about gun show prices and sellers please do yourselves and the sellers a favor and just stay home saving the cost of admission. Why bother to make yourselves upset and unhappy. Would you like some cheese and crackers with your wine?
Working a gun show is not all fun. There is the table cost; TABLE RENTAL IS $40.00 PER TABLE FOR ONE DAY, $50.00 PER TABLE FOR TWO DAYS. That is typical for a good large show. A seller running 5 tables has a $250 tab before the doors open. Then there is the matter of dragging all the stuff to the show and setting up as well as packing out. Believe me, it's a labor of love and not getting rich. Been there and done that for a decade. This in addition to owning a brick and mortar gun shop. We promoted the shop at the shows.
While it may not be true of every seller, the majority are there to turn a buck honestly and fairly and again, for those who see a show as a rip off, do those who enjoy the shows a favor and stay home. You will be happier and those working the show will be happier. That being a good thing all around.
Unless you have actually worked a firearms business and worked gun shows as a seller please don't be so quick to lump all gun show sellers as greedy. Those of you who do are really clueless as to the workings of the business of guns or likely business in general.
Thank You
Ron
How many here who are so quick to condemn gun show dealers have actually been on both sides of the tables? Spare me all this "Fair Market Value" nonsense. If I place a like new Colt Government Series 70 on my table for $1,000 you can either pay my asking price, try for a lower price, or simply move on and try and find the gun at another table for less. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to buy the gun for $1,000. It does not get any simpler.
For those who choose to complain and whine about gun show prices and sellers please do yourselves and the sellers a favor and just stay home saving the cost of admission. Why bother to make yourselves upset and unhappy. Would you like some cheese and crackers with your wine?
Working a gun show is not all fun. There is the table cost; TABLE RENTAL IS $40.00 PER TABLE FOR ONE DAY, $50.00 PER TABLE FOR TWO DAYS. That is typical for a good large show. A seller running 5 tables has a $250 tab before the doors open. Then there is the matter of dragging all the stuff to the show and setting up as well as packing out. Believe me, it's a labor of love and not getting rich. Been there and done that for a decade. This in addition to owning a brick and mortar gun shop. We promoted the shop at the shows.
While it may not be true of every seller, the majority are there to turn a buck honestly and fairly and again, for those who see a show as a rip off, do those who enjoy the shows a favor and stay home. You will be happier and those working the show will be happier. That being a good thing all around.
Unless you have actually worked a firearms business and worked gun shows as a seller please don't be so quick to lump all gun show sellers as greedy. Those of you who do are really clueless as to the workings of the business of guns or likely business in general.
Thank You
Ron
12131
Member
Right on! Labeling folks who disagree in principle with you as unethical. Good job.I am very disappointed with the ethics, or lack thereof, in this thread.
And I am happy to report that I do business with gun stores and retailers who don't rip people off while working very hard to rationalize why they do it.
SilentScream
Member
One of the things that has bugged me forever regarding gunshows seems to be the unwillingness of a good majority of the sellers to negotiate. I've been attending shows since around about 1998, and it seems to be getting worse. Another thing that bugs me are the practitioners of poorly executed fear mongering. Example; I was at a show here in Columbus Ga. it happened to be the day of the big Sikh temple shooting, I counted no less than 12 dealers saying that this shooting at a "Mooslum" temple was going to get another AWB passed. And no this is not the first time or gun show I've experienced this type of silliness. I think this plays into the OP's point that a lot of the dealers at these shows jack up their prices based on their target customer's fears. And contrary to what a lot of people posting in this thread think it is not "free market capitalism" it is attempted gouging plain and simple.
Sam Cade
Member
Would you negotiate with with manager at Lowes?
No. But I would at a pawn shop or jewelry store. Or even Academy sports at times. Are you trying to compare most gun dealers at gun shows to one of the largest big box retailers in the world? I would argue that they are far more comparable to the segment of the economy previously mentioned that does often times negotiate price.
But that is not my problem with gun shows.
PRM
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MachIVshooter
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Yup. Some dealers just don't seem interested in moving merchandise except for the occasional sucker. Yet some of these dealers manage to keep their doors open for rather extended periods, even though they make very few sales. I don't get it.
It still behooves them to stay competetive.
If I walk into a gun shop and find the pricing well above average on most everything they have, I won't even try to haggle. I just walk out and never return; They will never have an opportunity to earn my business if they appear unreasonable prima facie.
Sam Cade
Member
Nope. But gun sales IS retail. If I go to Hayes Shoes downtown to buy a new pair of boots I don't try to negotiate.
My FLGS has OTD* pricing, that is the hang tag has the price that you pay to get the firearm Out The Door. No questions, no negotiation. Just like the place I buy my boots.
*cost+10-15%+6% KY sales tax.
Fair enough Sam. In fact as a career retailer I agree with that an OTD pricing model can be very effective. Gun show create an interesting dynamic where you have multiple pricing structures with like merchandise competing for the same business. One usually wins over the other in such circumstances although which one wins can vary. The poster that made that statement clearly prefers a negotiable environment. If you are a retailer at a gun show where that is the prevailing feeling of the majority of customers, you will be less successful with an OYD strategy. Likewise, if you are at a show where customers want to see set prices, than the retailers with mark ups for discounts will struggle. It is important for sellers to understand the wants of the customers they are trying to reach. Sellers are better off if they have the ability to be dynamic as opposed to static. Know your clientele.
'
That analogy does not seem apt.
The manager at Lowes does not own the products you are buying while you are there, and you are not truly buying those items from him.
Most vendors and sellers at gun shows, at least in my experience, own the product in question and you are purchasing it from them.
nazshooter
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What you are describing is fraud and has nothing to do with asking a price that you think is too high. Selling a gun for $700 without telling the buyer that he could get it for $600 down the street is not the same thing.
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nazshooter
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Of course. As long as the buyer and seller are happy with the transaction at that moment who are you to say they are wrong? Maybe the buyer values the instant gratification of getting just what he wanted right now? Maybe she doesn't want to drive around to 5 different gun shops looking for a better deal.
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nazshooter
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I am very disappointed with the ethics, or lack thereof, in this thread.
So when you find that rare good deal do you buy it or do you insist on paying the seller what your LGS sells that same item for?
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nazshooter
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Imho Prescott is a little piece of gun heaven. I get down that way for work about once every month or two and always try to stop into one of the local gun shops.
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What rare good deal is that?
dirtengineer
Member
Yep they sell pistols up here. I am told that they will special order also.
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