Gun show greed is great for Walmart!

[JustinJ]

market value
n.
The amount that a seller may expect to obtain for merchandise, services, or securities in the open market.

If some guy buys a used gen 3 Glock 22 for $500 from a single vendor at a show because he is unaware that they are available for $300 to $400 elsewhere he is not truly purchasing on an open market. Yes, that is ultimately his bad for failing to do his research but he is still being taken advantage of.

Regardless, my original point is that such customers as described above are relatively uncommon. Relying on such people to do business is an extremely poor business model, regardless of ethical concerns, that is very unlikely to succeed.

 

[mhuxtable]

I was at Walmart today and I needed some Federal 9mm target ammo. This particular Walmart had 100 round boxes....the guy unlocking the cabinet said a certain local gun shop comes in 2-3 times a week, buys every 100 round box then sells them for 1.5-2 times the price.

Not exactly the same, but same basic premis. Pisses me off that they're preventing me as a consumer from getting a good deal....I bought 4 boxes instead of 2.

 

[Sam Cade]

If some guy buys a used gen 3 Glock 22 for $500 from a single vendor at a show because he is unaware that they are available for $300 to $400 elsewhere he is not truly purchasing on an open market.

Sure he is.

He wanted it. He purchased it. The supply met his demand. No dark forces blinded his eyes to cheaper goods.
The onus of being a well informed consumer rests with the consumer himself.

 

[beatledog7]

If you are referring to market value i suggest start with the correct meaning. Market value is the price at which something will sell in an auction setting. Its not the price at which a small population will be duped into paying.

Sorry, Justin. No.

As Sam noted, market value is the price a seller is willing to accept and a buyer is willing to pay, nothing more complex than that. That's why it is not possible to sell for more than market. The agreed price is the market price.

What venue is more "open market" than a gun show that a lot of people learned about from the Internet, the same place where they could have done their pricing homework. (It would be more open if it were not affected by gov't regulation, but that's another thread.) Many vendors sell the same models, but at a range of prices. Take your pick. If you pay more at table A than you would have paid at table B, that's not the seller's fault. If you pay more at table C than at the LGS or online, then it's still not the seller's fault. His market at that moment is the people who have come to that show looking to leave with a new gun, and if he can move Glocks all day at 15% more than the best online price, good for him.

Relying on such people to do business is an extremely poor business model, regardless of ethical concerns, that is very unlikely to succeed.

I keep seeing the same vendors at shows, and they keep on selling guns at prices that are higher than we can achieve by being patient and doing our research, even considering transfer fees. Yet buyers are lined up to pay those prices. That's the market. Sounds like a business model that does in fact succeed.

In the end, the buyer pays the asking price, the buyer and seller haggle and agree on a price, or the transaction doesn't happen. That's how it works.

 

[rule303]

In todays world, it is hard to say that a customer can be taken advantage of in most cases. You can hop online, and in seconds have prices on any item, from multiple sources. It is also changing the way businesses do business, where some online vendors are drop shipping from a manufacturer or vendor, and never have to incur the costs of actually stocking he product. Others (like Wal-Mart) can buy and sell in such bulk, that they can afford to sell at much smaller margins than would be required for a more traditional brick and mortar store.

 

[hardheart]

If five different vendors sell five of the same gun for five different prices on the same day at the same show in the same building in the same city, I wonder which one is the absolute market price. Never do understand when it is started that a single transaction equals the market price.

 

[JustinJ]

As Sam noted, market value is the price a seller is willing to accept and a buyer is willing to pay, nothing more complex than that. That's why it is not possible to sell for more than market. The agreed price is the market price.

Fair market value is not a term defined by one specific transaction. It is a general price determined by what a product is selling for, or specifically would or does sell for in an auction type environment. Just because Bill buys something for twice the average price that does not mean the market value is now what Bill payed.

As defined by Investopedia, Fair Market Value is:
"The price that a given property or asset would fetch in the marketplace, subject to the following conditions:

1. Prospective buyers and sellers are reasonably knowledgeable about the asset; they are behaving in their own best interests and are free of undue pressure to trade.

2. A reasonable time period is given for the transaction to be completed."

What venue is more "open market" than a gun show that a lot of people learned about from the Internet, the same place where they could have done their pricing homework. (It would be more open if it were not affected by gov't regulation, but that's another thread.) Many vendors sell the same models, but at a range of prices. Take your pick. If you pay more at table A than you would have paid at table B, that's not the seller's fault.

Regardless of whose fault it is that does not make the price the market value.

I keep seeing the same vendors at shows, and they keep on selling guns at prices that are higher than we can achieve by being patient and doing our research, even considering transfer fees. Yet buyers are lined up to pay those prices. That's the market. Sounds like a business model that does in fact succeed.

Well then your experience at gun shows is quite different than mine and apparently the others on this thread because the majority of posts i see believe the prices are too high so it would be safe to assume they don't pay them.

In todays world, it is hard to say that a customer can be taken advantage of in most cases. You can hop online, and in seconds have prices on any item, from multiple sources.

Many first time gun buyers have no idea of the wealth of information out there.

 

[Sam Cade]

1. Prospective buyers and sellers are reasonably knowledgeable about the asset; they are behaving in their own best interests and are free of undue pressure to trade.

There you go.

Bob wanted a Glock.
Bob was willing to pay up to a certain amount.

Bob found a Glock for less than or equal to his maximum spending and voluntarily purchased it.

 

[JustinJ]

There you go.

Bob wanted a Glock.
Bob was willing to pay up to a certain amount.

Bob found a Glock for less than or equal to his maximum spending and voluntarily purchased it.

I don't know how you buy things, but i assume if Bob knew the same product were available from different vendors for significantly less he would prefer to shop elsewhere.

 

[beatledog7]

I don't know how you buy things, but i assume if Bob knew the same product were available from different vendors for significantly less he would prefer to shop elsewhere.

And he's free to 1) find out about competitors' prices and 2) to buy from them.

He's not being ripped off if he willingly opens his wallet and pays more than someone else paid from a different seller. He's just being unaware, which once again is not the seller's fault.

If I'm selling cheeseburgers for $5, am I obliged to advise the hungry customer that the guy down the street is selling them for $4 with bacon? Nope. I'm not even obliged to know the other guy's price. If I'm smart, I find out. But I'm not responsible for a customer's decision to buy at my price.

 

[JustinJ]

And he's free to 1) find out about competitors' prices and 2) to buy from them.

He's not being ripped off if he willingly opens his wallet and pays more than someone else paid from a different seller. He's just being unaware, which once again is not the seller's fault.

That's been established and is really beside the point. This just going in circles but i'll ask one more question. So do you mean to say that any charged price is fair so long as the buyer agrees to pay it, regardless of his level of ignorance for whatever reason, or his desperation to get the product?

 

[beatledog7]

His ignorance is his fault, and his decision to buy is his responsibility.

We're not talking about gouging elderly people on a fixed income for roof repair during a downpour here. And we're not talking about the jacking up the price of sandbags when the river is already rising. We're talking about a gun buyer who could have done his research but instead pays what amounts to full retail for a firearm. He's under no duress to buy from the guy with the highest price or from any other guy.

So, yes. The price he agrees to pay is a fair price, as defined by the marketplace in which the transaction is concluded.

 

[AnthonyRSS]

I find better gun deals offline, than online. I can use the money i would waste on shipping, for dies and brass. Walmart has a good selection of guns, only if they would stray away common caliber stuff. Maybe get into reloading componets. Anywhere i can buy groceries, bullets, brass,and a new gun, will have my money. Lol

A Wal mart close to me has the best reloading selection within an hour's drive.

 

[hardheart]

At least I think we have gotten away from any notion that any completed transaction equals the current market price by default. I think some still believe that shopping at the gun show is equal to buying on the open market for any good. Transfer fees, shipping fees and times, shipping regulations, state laws, available ffl holders, and more are or could be barriers to ordering online, crossing state lines, or any purchasing scenario that makes buying a firearm less simple than buying a book.

Maybe not quite a natural monopoly, but for some the idea of ordering a particular firearm online may well have the same level of legal issue or logistical problems of trying to get a different utilities provider. But hey, the laws are public knowledge and people can just sell their houses, get new jobs, and move.

 

[oneounceload]

That's been established and is really beside the point. This just going in circles but i'll ask one more question. So do you mean to say that any charged price is fair so long as the buyer agrees to pay it, regardless of his level of ignorance for whatever reason, or his desperation to get the product?
__________________

ABSOLUTELY, failure to do your own due diligence is NOT the fault of the seller; besides, sometimes a buyer wants a particular gun and they have the disposable income so they can, and will, pay whatever is asked in order to get it. Not everyone buying guns is working for minimum wage and some willingly buy very expensive guns......"just because"
In the eyes of many who are working poor, these folks got "ripped off"; in the eyes of those with money, they got what they wanted when they wanted it

 

[Warp]

Some people (deceitful salesman, say) will say that "market value" for a Glock is $800 because they lied (or, uh, selectively left out parts of the truth) to an ignorant patron in order to fleece them of $300 more than what 95% of locals pay for that same item.

Other people just grow more resentful of 'used car salesmen'

 

[oneounceload]

Some people (deceitful salesman, say) will say that "market value" for a Glock is $800 because they lied (or, uh, selectively left out parts of the truth) to an ignorant patron in order to fleece them of $300 more than what 95% of locals pay for that same item.

Let's try this again:

failure to do your own due diligence is NOT the fault of the seller; besides, sometimes a buyer wants a particular gun and they have the disposable income so they can, and will, pay whatever is asked in order to get it

 

[Warp]

I stand by my statement and my position.

 

[Lockheed]

Wares are only worth what people will pay for them.

I will agree in the information age buyers have significant leverage having access to Internet resources.

 

[oneounceload]

Are there deceitful salespeople? Sure there are - in every field of endeavor - all trying to maximize their potential profit; however, the buyer ultimately sets the price - it doesn't matter what the asking price is - any product will sell at a given price when, and only when, the perceived value to the buyer is equal to that price. Price too high? product doesn't sell. Price too low? Product either moves very quickly, or product doesn't sell because buyer thinks something is wrong if the product is priced too low (think high point guns)

Again, however, if someone is about to make a purchase and they are uninformed, then they have no one to blame except themselves.

 

[tarosean]

Again, however, if someone is about to make a purchase and they are uninformed, then they have no one to blame except themselves.

I would venture to guess that a vast majority of Gun sales are impulse buys.

 

[huntsman]

I've made a few impulse buys but I'm tight with my money and that's always the bottom line, I can see how newbies could get caught up in a frenzy and with their limited knowledge WW with the structured prices could be the best place for them to shop.

 

[12131]

I would venture to guess that a vast majority of Gun sales are impulse buys.

And, I would also venture to guess that no one put a gun to their head making them buy.
Again, the buyer is responsible for his own action.

 

[Warp]

Are there deceitful salespeople? Sure there are - in every field of endeavor - all trying to maximize their potential profit; however, the buyer ultimately sets the price - it doesn't matter what the asking price is - any product will sell at a given price when, and only when, the perceived value to the buyer is equal to that price. Price too high? product doesn't sell. Price too low? Product either moves very quickly, or product doesn't sell because buyer thinks something is wrong if the product is priced too low (think high point guns)

Again, however, if someone is about to make a purchase and they are uninformed, then they have no one to blame except themselves.

We all know gun shop salesman misinform buyers. It isn't simply being uninformed when they guy behind the counter tells you that he carries Bushmaster and not Colt because the Bushies are that much better than the Colts.

Used car salesman.

 

[JustinJ]

ABSOLUTELY, failure to do your own due diligence is NOT the fault of the seller; besides, sometimes a buyer wants a particular gun and they have the disposable income so they can, and will, pay whatever is asked in order to get it.

So then it must also be okay in your mind for sellers to deceitfully sell defective or even fake products as the buyer should have done his research and been able to identify fakes and broken parts. When one profits or gains from the ignorance of another that is by definition taking advantage. The notion that it is okay to take advantage of people for the sake of money is absurd by any common standard of morality.

Not everyone buying guns is working for minimum wage and some willingly buy very expensive guns......"just because"
In the eyes of many who are working poor, these folks got "ripped off"; in the eyes of those with money, they got what they wanted when they wanted it

I assure you i'm far from minimum wage and i object to any person getting ripped off. I'm not talking about a person buying some super rare firearm for collector value. Thinking somebody else has wasting their money on something, as lower income people often do, is not the same as thinking they got ripped off. At the gun shows there are current and common production guns frequently being sold for well above average prices. If my gf had decided to buy a gun before meeting me she very easily could have been ripped off by these types of vendors. Excessive gun prices are also quite common at pawn shops as well as some gun stores.