Gun show greed is great for Walmart!

[Kush]

I don't go to gun shows anymore because of the prices. From my experience at gun shows, almost every single person except only one or two prices their products from at least 15% up to 100% ($450 old generation hi point 995 carbine when you could get them elsewhere for around $230) over what you could buy it for at any gun shop in town. Not to mention people selling guns they built from parts kits and claiming they didn't build it from parts, and the people who sell crappy guns and claim they're good (I ran into a guy selling a Remington 522 Viper saying it was just as good as a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin model 60).

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

I personally want to handle any gun before I buy it especially a used one. That means no internet purchases for this gal.

I told the manager at one of the local Wal-Marts thank you for having the foresight to start carrying AR's.

That said at our local gun shows you can tell how proud the sellers are of the guns they try to sell. Talk about high prices. Anyway the local gun shops love these shows as it drives business to them when the shows are in town. People wanting to buy check out the gun show then end up buying at a local LGS.

 

[beatledog7]

The hands-on aspect of gun shows is a major reason why many people go. Recently I was considering a new carry gun purchase, but my LGSs don't have the ones I wanted to fondle. I figured somebody at the next show probably would. I avoided making a several hundred dollar mistake by going to that show where I was able to examine, hold, etc. and then decide against a number of super-compact 9mm pistols, one of which I was almost certain to buy had I not learned that they all felt tiny and un-secure in my hand. I spent a few hours holding, pricing, asking questions, considering...but in the end I bought none of them.

Of course, I was informed. I was aware that those gun show vendors were just there looking for easy marks [sound of sarcasm detector beeping, arrow pointed at beatledog7], to get me to spend more money for a gun than I could manage by going to my LGSs (who might not have one in stock for 6 months and can't get their distributor to move any faster) or ordering on line (and paying shipping and transfer fees for a firearm I've never been able to handle).

Funny though, not a single one of those dealers pressured me into buying that day. They seemed to sense that I knew that by applying patience I could obtain the same gun for a better price, and they didn't try to convince me otherwise. But they didn't need to. Folks were lined up at every table with guns in hand, hang-tags blaring out "rip-off" prices, ready to have their CCs swiped. I suspect many of those people were uninitiated into the world of purchasing firearms and were thus unaware of other buying options. But those vendors provided them a service that they wanted and were willing to pay for: they went there to buy, and the seller had the gun they wanted, right there, right then, and at a price that met their pain threshold. Seller and buyer agreed to exchange xx dollars for a gun. That's free enterprise.

Did some buyers later learn that the same gun could be had for less money? Probably. Who among us has never bought something on Saturday only to learn on Monday that we could have paid less? Call it a learning curve.

I didn't see anybody twisting any arms that day. The jerky sellers were pretty in-your-face, and some buyers were pretty obnoxious, but the major, multi-table firearms dealers were just quietly moving guns at their posted prices. Those crooks! [sarcasm detector again]

 

[JustinJ]

Justin, you're an idealist. I hope you find this world you dream of--it isn't this one. The gun dealer you describe may have once existed, but he has gone under due to his lack of--where was it we started--oh yes: GREED.

I guess i've found Utopia then. The LGS i frequent served primarily military and first responders initially. Their prices were extremely competitive although some items were not available to the general public due to LE pricing deals with the manufacturers all their products were priced well. When i first started going there just about their only customers were cops but eventually word spread and today it is rare that the place isn't crowded with all types. I couldn't count the number of people i've turned on to the shop and annually spend between 5 to 10K there.

Their business model is obviously working and they still only advertise once a year for their big clearance event. Since their opening i've noticed a number of other gun shops in town seem to be less and less crowded on the rare occasions i do stop by.

I'm not saying gun dealers or any other merchant should be excused for treating customers unfairly, but it seems you would have us all accept your definition of fairness without question. I challenge your ideal, as do many others. Have you ever run a business? Have you ever been accountable for making it profitable, and I don't mean for just building a base of loyal customers while the red ink mounts. I mean showing a profit in every accounting period or being called to task as to why you don't, being forced to cut costs (i.e., lay off employees) so you can make a profit, etc.

Accept my definition of fairness without question? Please indicate where i ever said anything of the sort. Quite the opposite actually given I'm participating in a debate. Rather i would say you seem to wrongly believe anybody who disagrees with your opinion is trying to impose theirs on you by the above statement.

I've never been a lot of people's shoes but i don't necessarily think that disqualifies me from being able to decide if i believe their actions are wrong. I've never run a chemical company either but i still have a problem with them dumping toxic waste in rivers to save money on proper disposal fees.

It is not a poor business model to build or leverage a clientele--whether one-time or recurring--that is willing to pay more to buy from me. That's how I would see it. He came to my store or my table and asked to buy a widget. I didn't twist his arm. Posting a price of $XXX for a widget that my competitor might sell for $XXX-50--and allowing a customer to actually pay that amount for it--does not make me a con artist or rip-off merchant. It means I sold the same model for $50 more than he did, and it means...

Does buying it from you come with some extra incentive to pay an extra $50? If not, would you at least agree your customer is not getting the best value for his money?

Right on! Labeling folks who disagree in principle with you as unethical. Good job.

A dictator may believe his actions are ethical. Obviously nobody has the right to believe otherwise by that logic.

What you are describing is fraud and has nothing to do with asking a price that you think is too high. Selling a gun for $700 without telling the buyer that he could get it for $600 down the street is not the same thing.

The statement i was responding to is "it's up to the buyer to do his homework". So what if the seller tells the buyer that the price is competitive when it is actually significantly higher than normal?

 

[MachIVshooter]

Here's my take;

On it's face, there's nothing unethical about a dealer selling well above market value or a buyer purchasing well below it. If a person walks into a LGS, points to a gun that is priced above average and says "I'll take it.", well, he can only blame himself for spending more than he should have. On the same note, if the tag hanging on a gun is significantly less than it should be, that is the seller's fault for lack of due diligence in research before making said price tag. In either case, the person who walks away from the transaction with less money than he/she could have has no one to blame but him/herself.

However....

If unethical tactics are used to push the transaction, then the transaction itself becomes unethical. If the dealer selling high uses underhanded techniques and propoganda to convince the buyer who is placing trust in him/her, then the sale becomes unethical. Likewise, if a buyer who portrays himself as being a trustworthy expert seriously lowballs the little old lady who is selling off her late husbands collection, that is also unethical.

 

[TrafficTech]

I love going to the gun shows. You never know what you will find. Yes some dealers think their guns are made of gold but you don't have to buy from them.

I look for local dealers at the shows and try to buy from them to help support the local economy.

 

[Redlg155]

Both sides have valid points. I go to the shows to sell and trade guns to satisfy whatever current whim I may have for a different gun as well as seeing folks who have bought and traded from me on a regular basis.

Do I make a fair profit at times? Yes. Have I lost money? Yes. I do understand the dealer standpoint where each transaction needs time be profitable in order to pay the bills. I Don't think anyone could fault a dealer on that.

It's disappointing when it seems like most dealers, with the exception of a couple, seem to enter into an agreement on pricing before the show.

 

[beatledog7]

Justin, in saying that you seem to want everyone to accept your definition of what's fair, I mean that you are adamant in your assertion that it is a rip-off (i.e., unfair treatment) to sell a gun at a price higher than that for which someone else sells it or for more money than what you consider to be "market value." As I and others have said or implied, the price a thing typically sells for, as defined by a series of market parameters--in this case a gun show to which certain people have come expressly to acquire a gun--is the very definition of its market value.

If a customer comes to my shop or my table and offers to buy an item for the posted amount, be it $50 more than or $50 less than in some other place, I presume as the seller that this buyer is a rational, thinking person who understands how markets work and knows how to compare competing items and research prices. I sell him or her the item on that basis without asking him to verify that he's sure he wants to buy from me at this price on this occasion. Would you have me do something different?

If he asks, "Is this a competitive price?", first I have to wonder why he's asking me and what sort of answer he expects/ Does he think I'm going to say, "No, it's about 100 bucks higher than that guy right over there asks for the same thing." I'll always say in complete honesty that it is a competitive price, because I am competing for his business, and this is my price.

Look at it this way: He wants this item. He's in my shop or at my table with his hands on it. The supposed lower priced guy may not carry the same model or may not have it in stock. It's not my place to monitor another shop's stocking status. I clearly do have it, and am offering the buyer an opportunity to buy right there, right then...or not. He can go down the street or on line or to the next table and either find the same thing for a bit less, find it for a bit more, or not find it at all. If he doesn't buy mine, somebody else will. Or not. The "extra incentive" to buy from me at my "rip-off" price is the immediate nature of the buyer's desire to have it and the risk he may be taking by putting mine down and then failing to find one elsewhere. Weighing that decision is his role, not mine.

No coercion is in play here. The buyer is in control. I am not required to caution him or her that my price may not be the best achievable.

 

[nazshooter]

The statement i was responding to is "it's up to the buyer to do his homework". So what if the seller tells the buyer that the price is competitive when it is actually significantly higher than normal?

And in terms of what constitutes a fair price that is correct. It IS up to the buyer to do his homework because each buyer and seller combination is unique and therefore the answer is completely subjective. That's completely different than a seller trying to pass off counterfeit or broken goods. This seller is lying about an objective fact (aka committing fraud.)

Consider two sellers. One has only one AR left and knows his supplier is back ordered. The second has ten of them in stock and got a better price by buying in bulk but bought them on credit. Clearly each of them is going to value that AR they have out on their table differently. Likewise, one buyer may really want your AR with it's chromed barrel and 1:7 twist while another buyer really preferred a 1:9 but is willing to buy yours anyway if the price is low enough. Two different buyers with two different ideas of what your gun is worth TO THEM.

 

[itchy1]

I can't remember the last time I actually bought from a dealer at a gunshow. It's almost always PP transactions. I do like to look at all the less common stuff that you don't see very often.

 

[oneounceload]

Likewise, if a buyer who portrays himself as being a trustworthy expert seriously lowballs the little old lady who is selling off her late husbands collection, that is also unethical.

Yet folks LOVE to come on here and post pics of the "steal of a deal" they got by doing exactly that or taking advantage of a friend who is on hard times - but a retailer trying to max his profit to cover his high costs at gun shows? Why they are just un-'Merican!.....right.........

It is up to the buyer to set the price on any item ever sold - if he does his due diligence, then he/she will know what that item holds - to THEM - as far as value goes - and what that value is to you versus them can be very different. I have a friend who spent $65,000 one year to buy three shotguns - I would venture that 99.9% of everyone here would be flabbergasted and then proceed to tell how their $100 XYZ brand will do the job, etc. But to that particular person, it is about quality, style and beauty, and for him, the money is not an issue - he WILLINGLY paid the prices he did to get the guns he wanted. I will venture there are folks buying at gunshows for whom the same principle applies.

If the buyer WILLINGLY pays the asking price, there is no being ripped off, no gouging, no over-paying - the seller and the buyer both agreed that the particular item was worth the price charged

 

[JTHunter]

The two Wal-fart stores in Illinois near St. Louis, MO, does NOT sell firearms. I don't know about other areas of Illinois.

 

[Anger]

Gun shows, pawn shops, swap meets, flea martkets, etc are all a waste of time. It's almost as if they believe nobody price checks before stepping into their shops.
Good deals are so few and far between in these places, why waste the gas money and time to play bargain hunter when you can buy it at a LGS, walmart or online for less.
It's so disgusting seeing somebody sell something used for the same if not more than another seller has it for new.

You've obviously never purchased a used gun from an individual walking around the show or a dealer who has used guns priced reasonable or below going.

 

[JustinJ]

If he asks, "Is this a competitive price?", first I have to wonder why he's asking me and what sort of answer he expects/ Does he think I'm going to say, "No, it's about 100 bucks higher than that guy right over there asks for the same thing." I'll always say in complete honesty that it is a competitive price, because I am competing for his business, and this is my price.

You may be competing for his business but certainly not by way of price. In fact i would argue you aren't really competing for business but rather seeking the ignorant. Relying on the ignorance of customers to make sells is not a something most will see in a favorable light. All the rationalizations aside, that is what you are advocating.

Look at it this way: He wants this item. He's in my shop or at my table with his hands on it. The supposed lower priced guy may not carry the same model or may not have it in stock. It's not my place to monitor another shop's stocking status. I clearly do have it, and am offering the buyer an opportunity to buy right there, right then...or not. He can go down the street or on line or to the next table and either find the same thing for a bit less, find it for a bit more, or not find it at all. If he doesn't buy mine, somebody else will. Or not. The "extra incentive" to buy from me at my "rip-off" price is the immediate nature of the buyer's desire to have it and the risk he may be taking by putting mine down and then failing to find one elsewhere. Weighing that decision is his role, not mine.

If a purchaser is well aware that your price is high, relative to market value (which is a real price range, not just somebodies opinion), and he still buys it that's fine. If he would rather buy it now than wait and find it for cheaper, that's also fine, so long as he knows he is paying extra to avoid that delay. However, we all know that the vast majority of people would not pay significantly higher for an item than average price if they had a choice. And the gun shows are full of vendors with overpriced guns that are readily and immediately available elsewhere.

Quote:
The statement i was responding to is "it's up to the buyer to do his homework". So what if the seller tells the buyer that the price is competitive when it is actually significantly higher than normal?

And in terms of what constitutes a fair price that is correct. It IS up to the buyer to do his homework because each buyer and seller combination is unique and therefore the answer is completely subjective.

I didn't say fair price, i said competitive. For example, if a vendor has a LE trade in Glock 22 in fair condition and lists it for sale at $500 there is no justifiable way to claim that price is competitive. Do you believe it is moral for him to claim the price is competitive?

 

[oneounceload]

I didn't say fair price, i said competitive. For example, if a vendor has a LE trade in Glock 22 in fair condition and lists it for sale at $500 there is no justifiable way to claim that price is competitive. Do you believe it is moral for him to claim the price is competitive?

Is it moral for one car company to claim they are the best/fastest/safest/ (fill in the blank)? It is called marketing - again, if the buyer doesn't do their homework, then they have no one but themselves to blame

 

[Halal Pork]

Not meaning to distract from the college debate, but to the OP, Red, you might head to a gun show in Central Florida if you get the chance. Weapons Unlimited (Shoot Straight) out of Apopka used to offer very good prices. They have their gun show schedule posted on their website. They don't get so far as the Redneck Riviera though. Not exactly convenient but maybe it could help if you find yourself meandering that way.

 

[JustinJ]

Is it moral for one car company to claim they are the best/fastest/safest/ (fill in the blank)? It is called marketing - again, if the buyer doesn't do their homework, then they have no one but themselves to blame

No, it is not moral for a car company to lie by claiming to have the fastest or safest car.

 

[oneounceload]

You're confusing morality and marketing...
In today's society, with the advent of the internet, there is absolutely NO reason for any consumer to be uninformed about ANY item being sold (well, except for the healthcare law)

 

[nazshooter]

JustinJ

You may be competing for his business but certainly not by way of price. In fact i would argue you aren't really competing for business but rather seeking the ignorant.

It sounds to me like he's seeking out people who are so price insensitive that they aren't even willing to walk around to the other tables and compare prices. A smart entrepreneur actively seeks out the customers who put the highest value on whatever he or she has for sale. This is why you don't see a lot of four star restaurants in the ghetto. A REALLY smart entrepreneur tries to do this while at the same time also selling at a lower price to those who are more price conscious. This is why coupons and haggling exist. I might question the wisdom of that approach at a gun show if his items are truly the same as all the others however the market will take care of that by leaving him to pack up all his unsold inventory at the end of the show. If there really are a significant number of people willing to pay his prices then that suggests that they are competitive and that you are simply missing some factor that makes them more valuable.

If a purchaser is well aware that your price is high, relative to market value (which is a real price range, not just somebodies opinion).....

Not in any objective and measurable way it isn't. The fact that you admit to a price "range" rather than just a price should be a clue. What makes your opinion (or any disinterested third party) of the proper price range superior to that of the actual buyer and seller?

I didn't say fair price, i said competitive. For example, if a vendor has a LE trade in Glock 22 in fair condition and lists it for sale at $500 there is no justifiable way to claim that price is competitive. Do you believe it is moral for him to claim the price is competitive?

I think such a seller is doing me a great service. I can check the prices at the other tables and if he's being very optimistic about his price I then know I shouldn't trust his judgment about it's condition, suitability for my purpose, or anything else. I also know that next time I can save time by skipping his table and if he owns a shop I won't waste time stopping in.

 

[GLOOB]

I will personally never go to a gunshow, again. It's like going to a Dixie Stampede that sells overpriced guns.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Well first off I am glad Walmart is mainstreaming guns. However I have enough other things to dislike about Walmart so I buy my guns at gunshows or the LGS. I have occasionally bought ammo at Walmart in a pinch but I have found bulk on-line ammo to be a better deal for the non reloader like me. Although I probably over pay for my guns I pay less for what it eats.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The internet is walmart on steroids without the bricks, pretty much.

 

[oneounceload]

It's like going to a Dixie Stampede that sells overpriced guns.

Yet AGAIN, IF the folks are WILLINGLY paying the asking price, then the guns are not overpriced; they must be priced fairly if they are selling. If they were overpriced the seller wouldn't be selling anything - it is the buyer who ultimately sets the price

 

[GLOOB]

^ True. But I think in this case, people are willing to pay a little more. Because...

1. The gun show has the benefits of a fairly large selection of guns you can take home right now. Almost as many as some of the larger retail stores around here.

2. You have all the hamburgers, hot dogs, fountain soda, and homecured smoked meats a guy could ask for.

3. You get to peruse a never ending selection of $3.00 knives made in Chinakistan, plus all that other pseudo military survival type gear... just because.

So yeah, it's not overpaying if you like the experience.

 

[CZguy]

. You have all the hamburgers, hot dogs, fountain soda, and homecured smoked meats a guy could ask for.

I made a solemn promise to myself to never go to a gun show that sold chili dogs ever again. It was just.......breathtaking.