Gun show loophole?

[AlexanderA]

So, let's put people in prison if they're selling guns without background checks to make sure that the known killers we let out of prison won't get guns. Makes sense. Because in a free country where guns are more common than staplers someone who is a criminal can't possibly find a criminal way to get a gun.

So you're saying that gun sales / purchases should be totally unregulated. I can understand that, given that regulation has failed to keep guns out of the hands of wrongdoers. (There are just too many guns out there.) As for the idea of keeping wrongdoers in prison forever, good luck with that.

But since we do have regulation of gun sales / purchases, there ought at least to be a fair playing field among sellers. If someone is going to go to all the trouble of getting an FFL, keeping records, running background checks, etc., is it fair for him to have to compete with fly-by-night operators who do none of those things?

Bottom line is that we can tell the difference between "unlicensed dealers" and those who merely make occasional sales. This difference is difficult to quantify or to put into words, but it's there.

 

[Reloadron]

So, let's put people in prison if they're selling guns without background checks to make sure that the known killers we let out of prison won't get guns. Makes sense. Because in a free country where guns are more common than staplers someone who is a criminal can't possibly find a criminal way to get a gun. Besides, we need to make room for gun dealers.

So what you are saying is that if I wish to sell or give a gun to my son, daughter, grandson, granddaughter or any family member I should have them go through a FFL? So if I sell a gun to anyone other than going through a FFL I should go to jail? Sorry but I do not see that happening.

Ron

 

[natman]

Didn't happen in Illinois.
-West out

Hasn't been ruled on by SCOTUS yet. The case contesting the Maryland AW ban, Bianchi v Brown (formerly Bianchi v Frosh) is the most promising contender.

 

[splithoof]

Starting to sound like the way California is headed. We currently are allowed to do a “family transfer” within certain thresholds, but that definition is narrow, and must by law be reported.
I see the whole situation with National gun shows and sales eventually going the same as California, in that FFL dealers may bring, display, and contract sales for non-FFL buyers, but that sale ultimately is concluded upon successful passing of some BC that will take days or longer, and will be recorded into a database. Some will say that it could never happen in their state, but that is what we said twenty-five years ago, and look where we are now.

 

[wayneinFL]

So you're saying that gun sales / purchases should be totally unregulated. I can understand that, given that regulation has failed to keep guns out of the hands of wrongdoers. (There are just too many guns out there.) As for the idea of keeping wrongdoers in prison forever, good luck with that.

But since we do have regulation of gun sales / purchases, there ought at least to be a fair playing field among sellers. If someone is going to go to all the trouble of getting an FFL, keeping records, running background checks, etc., is it fair for him to have to compete with fly-by-night operators who do none of those things?

Bottom line is that we can tell the difference between "unlicensed dealers" and those who merely make occasional sales. This difference is difficult to quantify or to put into words, but it's there.

Who said we need to keep felons or nuts in prison "forever"?

And since we're already infringing on a right without any benefit whatsoever, you think we should expand that infringement to keep things fair for dealers? Why? Because of their feelings?

How fair do we need to make it? I've sold about 40 guns out of my collection to dealers over the last year. Do I need to sell the next 40 to dealers just to have them placed right out on the table and marked up 100%? Is that what it takes for it to be fair?

All this so dealers unwittingly sell to a prohibited party's girlfriend instead of dealers unwittingly selling to a prohibited party. Brilliant.

 

[AlexanderA]

I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and for the Supreme Court to declare the National Firearms Act (1934). the Federal Firearms Act (1938), and the Gun Control Act (1968) unconstitutional. Until that day comes, however, we're stuck with the current regulatory system. That's based on dealer licensing (FFL's). It's unfair to legit dealers to have fly-by-night operators ("unlicensed dealers") competing with them. There's a difference between selling off a personal collection (that's OK) and flipping guns at every gun show within a 100 mile radius.

 

[wayneinFL]

I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and for the Supreme Court to declare the National Firearms Act (1934). the Federal Firearms Act (1938), and the Gun Control Act (1968) unconstitutional. Until that day comes, however, we're stuck with the current regulatory system. That's based on dealer licensing (FFL's). It's unfair to legit dealers to have fly-by-night operators ("unlicensed dealers") competing with them. There's a difference between selling off a personal collection (that's OK) and flipping guns at every gun show within a 100 mile radius.

My wife told me it was unfair that she got a speeding ticket in January, because I speed more than she does. She doesn't think it's fair that the law isn't uniformly applied to everyone all the time. It upsets her when someone gets by with something and she doesn't.

My position is life isn't fair, she's a big girl now, and she should get over it.

 

[dogtown tom]

The ATF can’t even keep up with tracking guns stolen en masse from break-ins of retail stores, illegal explosive devices.

Huh?
I think expecting ATF to somehow keep track of stolen firearms is a bit much, being that they are stolen and ATF doesn't have them.
If ATF actually had a way to "track" a firearm after it was stolen, the gun community would have a stroke over such an invasion of privacy.

If you mean't "trace" a firearm.......well, ATF does run firearm traces after LE recovers the stolen firearm.

 

[Ignition Override]

Dogtown tom : Roger that.

I only meant trace after finding a gun, Not track, like the near-useless tracking of my Postal Money Order which arrived days late (for a FAL rifle).

 

[FROGO207]

Never, in the fifteen years I've been an FFL, have I submitted a buyers address for an FBI NICS check.
An FBI NICS check includes the following information ONLY:
Full name
State of Residence
Place of Birth
Height/Weight/Sex
Birth Date
Social Security# (optional)
UPIN (if the buyer has one)
Ethnicity & Race
Country of Citizenship
If not a US citizen, their USCIS#
Type of firearm (handgun/long gun/other)
Type of Gov photo ID and the number.

You may not have submitted an address but the government photo ID and number at least here in Maine has all that information as does your drivers license that most people commonly use to purchase a firearm.
So if one wants to assure they are not selling to a prohibited person just have a licensed FFL do the transfer then you are not responsible if mistakes are made.
I also feel that a call for regestry will shortly follow a UBC law if enacted. The anti side will never be satisfied even after they have us regestering table forks. See the mess in the UK.
Oh and this last legislative seesion here in the state of Maine we now will have to suffer through a 72 hour delay before picking up a firearm thanks to a 4AM vote!

 

[AlexanderA]

I think expecting ATF to somehow keep track of stolen firearms is a bit much, being that they are stolen and ATF doesn't have them.
If ATF actually had a way to "track" a firearm after it was stolen, the gun community would have a stroke over such an invasion of privacy.

In my experience, the ATF does a great job of tracking down and recovering stolen NFA items, particularly machine guns. I once sold a watercooled Browning to a buyer, who promptly had it stolen out of the trunk of his car. The ATF recovered it for him within a week (although they weren't able to find the spare barrel that was stolen along with the gun). The ATF has an interesting network of informants for cases such as this. It's just a matter of priorities for them. Ordinary guns obviously have a low priority, given ATF's limited resources.

 

[splithoof]

As to the ending of the NFA and GCA OF 1968:
Respectfully, I do not see that happening anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime. That case would have to slowly wind its way up to The Eunuchs of SCOTUS, after having to go through a likely gauntlet of lower court shenanigan, as illustrated by the 9th circuit and others. Hopefully it would get there by a different, more liberty-minded circuit, but I doubt even that. Once the Eunuchs even had a chance to grant cert, by then the makeup of that court may be vastly more communist, and they would deny cert. And if they did hear it, and produce a favorable ruling, we should expect to see more shenanigans by lower courts just like we are witnessing the twisting, the manipulation of, and the outright disregard for Bruen.

 

[Thomasss]

You know if "profit" is the deciding factor.......It is very, very, hard to make a profit these days when we are just getting rid of old dust collectors. Just think of all the inflation in the last four years at 17% (acutally I read it is much higher than that) plus depreciation, shipping, handling, hazmat, insurance. my salary and commission, gun show fees & Obama Care premiums and going to many gun shows before selling the darn thing.
Hey business people, did I miss any incurred costs???

What profit?

 

[AlexanderA]

You know if "profit" is the deciding factor.......It is very, very, hard to make a profit these days when we are just getting rid of old dust collectors. Just think of all the inflation in the last four years at 17% (actually I read it is much higher than that) plus depreciation, shipping, handling, hazmat, insurance. my salary and commission, gun show fees & Obama Care premiums and going to many gun shows before selling the darn thing.
Hey business people, did I miss any incurred costs???

What profit?

It's true that legitimate dealers (FFL's that cross their t's and dot their i's) find it hard to turn a profit. But fly-by-night operators who flip guns at gun shows, without having much overhead cost, make lots of money. It's this unfair economic advantage that skews the whole gun market.

 

[SunnySlopes]

Threads like these always bring out the usual suspects. Tagged for later.