Guns and Motorcycles

[Red_SC]

Generally when you see someone in full leather when the thermometer tops 100 then they are either new riders, on a road trip, or ones who will hit excessive speeds at the drop of a hat.

Yep, and the people who carry guns are the ones who want to kill somebody for any reason at all.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Most of the ones I know who wear gear are experienced, and care about their safety- same type of people who carry concealed. Ask my brother- he went down at 35 this summer, and was very glad he was wearing his gear. Roadrash hurts, whether you're new or experienced, enjoy speed or not.

Good thread, I wear my 1911 strong side. The jacket covers it when I'm on the bike, and I pull my shirt over it when I take the jacket off. Guess I need to carry it in a backpack or tank bag- that could be painful to land on. I've fallen on it hard before (ATV spill, not bike), and it took several months to stop hurting.

 

[Red_SC]

Also, according to some statistics I've seen by insurance companies, those most likely to wreck are middle aged guys on harleys. Just 'cause you're on a cruiser doesn't mean you're any less vulnerable to road hazards.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

History

Way back in the last century there were bikes built with the shooter in mind. They were Indians. Throttle on the left, left foot rocker clutch and front brake on the left, too. My memory's gone somewhere so I can't remember what side of the tank the shifter was on...

Oh well.

Now about our new, and short, friend, there's a mailing list to subscribe to:

SHORT: Short bikers' discussion list
DIGEST AVAILABLE? Yes
ADMIN ADDRESS: sbl-requestatkidotorg OR sbl-d-requestatkidotorg
TO SUBSCRIBE: Body: "subscribe sbl" OR "subscribe sbl-d"
LIST OWNER: catatreptilesdotorg
WWW URL: http://www.ki.org/sbl

There is also the "List of lists" maintained by Carl Paukstis that he's been maintaining since the old rec.moto days.

http://www.micapeak.com/mailinglistroundup

Anyone who's been paying attention for a while might be able to figure out which MC mailing list is mine...


Lastly some might like reading about Beth Dixon, who's also kinda short:
(it's a good read)

http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcfrank/bdintro.html

 

[SeanSw]

I dream that one day I can cruise down the road with a rifle scabbard slung to the side of my bike and a pistol holstered across my chest.

The question recently arose when a friend of mine, who only lives about an hour away, wanted to bring his bike down so we could ride to my range together. Problem is, he only has small rifle and had no way to transport it safely (or legally?) on a motorcycle. We didn't know if a well enclosed and properly secured soft sided case would be adequate, so we left the idea alone.

Possum - I also bought my first Kawasaki last summer. A 1983 KZ 550, which probably became the Vulcan in later years. How do you like it?

 

[Dusty Rusty]

Thanks again everyone. O.O.--I will check out those sites. Since I am so new to biking, I need all the help I can get. I really appreciate all the comments about the pros and cons of carrying on your person. Hopefully I will never encounter a situation where I need a gun--whether in my car or on my bike. The first thing I will try in any situation is to get out of harm's way and call for help as fast as I can. I want a gun with me in case I break down and am alone in the middle of nowhere. Of course, I can keep my doors locked and windows up in my car but that is not an option with a bike. I'm a firm believer in CYA!

 

[BobMcG]

I ride a bike and carry my weapon in a tank bag. It sits on the gas tank,
and when you stop, it is immediately available. It has come in handy several times. Take my word for it and don't ride in the bad neighborhoods. Stopping at stopsigns can be hazardous to your health. Ha
It is amazing how fast you can pull your weapon out of that tankbag.

I often carry the same way. Very quick and handy but you can't just jump off the bike and leave it unattended. If you will be on the bike pretty much all the time it's good but if you'll be getting on and off periodically you should be using a holster or as I also often do, wear a fanny pack w/holster design.

 

[profshadow]

I carry in my jacket inner pocket when I'm riding (profshadow comes from professor who rides a shadow cycle, BTW)

But what i really need is a "bike safe" to stick my gun in when I get to work (at a university.)

I can't carry to the buildings and i can't just leave it in the soft bags I've got. Been thinking of making a "safe" that is under the passenger seat, since i rarely ride with a passenger.

Who knows? Maybe I've a product for the market....hmmmmm..


Pretend you didn't just read that

 

[Sig245]

"red sc" I think the accident statistics show that the majority of accidents on bikes are young people that are not experienced. They far out weigh the "old guys on Harleys" although since the sales of Harleys are going through the roof they are starting to catch up.

There are a lot of older guys buying Harleys because friends do and they have never ridden a bike before. Its a bit dangerous to start out your ridding career on a 700-800 lb bike with no experience. Plus the old guys are ridding many, many more miles taking cross country trips all over the US.

A reminder folks, when carrying your firearm across state lines to educate yourself as to the rules of each state you intend to enter. They all seem to have different rules about where you can carry.

 

[Smurfslayer]

"red sc" I think the accident statistics show that the majority of accidents on bikes are young people that are not experienced. They far out weigh the "old guys on Harleys" although since the sales of Harleys are going through the roof they are starting to catch up.

I don't think so.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/motorcycle-accident-statistics.htm


In accident increase by demographic, the 40+ crowd is kicking everyone's behind. But every demographic has something to take a hard look at.

Anyway, if you're going to carry on a moto, think about the crash, and what could happen before it actually does. Position the firearm accordingly.

 

[c_yeager]

Heres a fun breakdown of motorcycle fatality trends from the NTSB, its from 2005, I think there should be a new one coming soon.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/symp_mot...nal Highway Traffic Safety Administration.pdf

Lots of interesting stats there, the key point is that fatalities among older riders are growing at a staggering rate compared to all other riders. 40+ riders are starting to have fatality stats to challenge the kids. The mean age of a motorcycle fatality is now 38.8 years old (2005). Also, the report shows that average engine size of the machine involved is increasing, which really isnt a suprise as they simply dont make or sell as many small bikes in the states as they used to.

 

[RonC]

That is some very powerful data.

Probably the most poignant information is that the death rate is increasing much faster than the rate of increase of motorcycle ownership. It's increased per 100,000 people riding motorcycles and per mile ridden.

It's increased in the over 50 age group by hundreds and hundreds of percent, even including increase in the number of riders. Very sobering.

I put about 15,000 miles a year on motorcycles, and I have promised my family that I will hang up my riding gear the day I start to get complacent.
Ron

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Age 44 here--been riding since I was a kid---dirt bikes---then street bikes since age 18----2005 Suzuki Bandit 1200---SP101 locked under the seat---Fox Creek leather jacket(good stuff)---full face lid.

I've been known to open it up from time to time-----there ain't a car on the road that will hang with that bike---I won't be shooting from a moving bike----if you get in a wreck having a gun on your person is the least of your worries.

 

[c_yeager]

Probably the most poignant information is that the death rate is increasing much faster than the rate of increase of motorcycle ownership. It's increased per 100,000 people riding motorcycles and per mile ridden.

You know, its actually a lot worse than it looks from the numbers. When looking at statistics one has to put them into context. When you compare motorcycle fatalities today to motorcycle fatalities 20 years ago one must consider all the factors. Most importantly one has to think about how emergency medical treatment has improved. Today an injured rider can expect a passing driver to call EMS within minutes on their cell phone, a paramedic unit can be remotely dispached and directed to the exact location via GPS and then call in a helicopter to provide rapid transportation to a trauma center, often within an hour of the initial crash. Upon arriving at the trauma center that rider is now treated to a host of advanced life-saving techniques and medications that mean his chance of survival are *significantly* better than a rider who suffered the same injuries 20 years ago.

When you think about this is becomes apparent that a number of the riders who died 20 years ago might have survived today. That means that the already grim numbers that we see here are actually quite a bit worse. I would be willling to wager that while the fatality numbers have gone up quite a bit, the number of grave disableing injuries has come up by a significantly higher margin. It's not a pretty picture.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I think most of that is from noob's getting on bikes that they have no business being on---bike performance has increased dramatically in the last 10 years.

The 600 of today is more bike than the 1000's of back in the day----that makes a 600 an expert's bike---nothing a noobie has any reason to be climbing on.

That 1200 of mine is my first--REALLY big bike---that's after 24 years on the road on smaller bikes.

Anyone with less than a couple years on the road has no business being on anything over 500cc's----even a 250 Ninja will crack 100mph.

 

[StexFJR]

I'm with Omaha on this one. Have many entry level students (I'm an MSF Ridercoach) telling me how they're going to get a 600 (R6, GXSR, Ninja, etc). Thinking somehow this is like a V-Star or Vulcan. NO WAY!!! These bikes are ready for the track. The local Yamaha service manager told me that 9 out of 10 sportbikes come back wrecked. This doesn't exclude cruisers but sportbikes (at least in S. Texas) are over represented. that being said, I love my FJR!!!

Dewayne

 

[SeanSw]

Having come out of an MSF course 6 months ago I can concur that a few of the other students planned on going to the dealership the same day they got their class M license. Some had already put money aside for their first big Harley, and a woman in her mid 20's said he boyfriend had already purchased her a matching GSXR.

My 550 doesn't have any trouble doing twice the speed limit with me on it. I'm getting antsy to upgrade but there's a lot more for me to learn before getting a faster bike. If there's an opening I'll be taking the advancec riders MSF course this summer (I've already got over 500 miles in half a year).

 

[RonC]

Your comments, c yeager, are very insightful.

I hadn't thought about the issue of improved and more rapid medical care.
Thanks for that input.

StexFJR,
I'm on an '05 FJR as well. With 144 HP to the crank and 99 lb-ft of torque (130 and 91 to the wheel), the bike is much more capable than I am.

On point: a Kahr MK9 and sometimes an S&W 642 snuggles comfortably in my tank bag.

Ron

 

[mpmarty]

67 + years old riding since I was 14 first bike I rode was a '47 Harley tin can 74 cu in. full dresser that belonged to a neighbor. Since then, more than I can recall of Honda, Suzuki, Ariel, BSA, Triumph etc. Now, BMW R1150RT and next year either a K1200 or a R1200RT. I always pack on bike. Usually a fanny pack with my Taurus PT145 in it but once in a while a PPK 380 in my jacket pocket.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Let's think about this. 20+ years ago the message about rider education was starting to take hold via MSF Programs. The only problem with this is: The MSF course went PC with the "improved" course the introduced about that time, the RSS. Having taught the prior course for a few years and the RSS course for about 10 years, I can say without doubt the RSS sucks. The prior MSF "Rider Course" did a much better job of teaching basic skills. Currently, the theory is to get as many through the course as possible, and pass most of those. The MSF has dumbed down it's course to the lowest common rider denominator.

When Harry Hurt did his study, he found that the majority of accidents around the middle of the 70s were mostly caused by a car violating a motorcyclist's right of way for a bunch of reasons. Now things are worse. We've more traffic, more distracted drivers and more motorcyclists. Does anyone want to bet a new and current study would find significantly different results?

Sure there are a ton of more distracted and aggressive drivers than back in the 70s, but they are making the same mistakes while driving with more distractions.

Of course, the PTBs want someTHING to blame. Any bets on the THING they will blame will be motorcycles.

PS: One thing to try would be to allow motorcycles to filter through jammed traffic which would mostly eliminate their being involved in rear end collisions. I lived and road motorcycles in SoCal for 40 years and have many thousands of miles riding those white lines with Botts Dots over them.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

deleted editing error created duplicate

 

[Evil_Ed]

I currently ride a 1994 Kawasaki Vulcan recieved from my wife as an anniversary present while she was pregnant with my oldest son. I started riding dirtbikes when I was 8 and had a Vulcan 750 as my only transportation for a year in college. Stopped riding when I was 21 due to the necessity of having a car to haul stuff around and didn't get another bike until I was 28.

Pocket carry works prety well for bikes but limits the size of gun you can carry.

ProfShadow, find a lock box that top opens that is about the same size as the interior of one of your saddle bags and bolt it to the support rails on the side of your bike through the side of the saddlebag. That way you get the advantage of a lockbox directly attached to your bike and the camouflage of the regular bag on the outside plus they won't be able to remove it without opening it first to get to the nuts holding it to the side of the bike. Added advantage is that you have secure storage for more than just a firearm.

 

[LanEvo`]

Now I am wondering, how do I carry on my bike? Holster, saddlebag, what?

Just keep in mind that your chances of falling off the bike are generally significantly higher than your chances of needing a handgun while on the bike. So, you might want to consider what impact (if any) the gun might have if (when?) you fall.

I would think vests/shoulder rigs (with the gun right on your ribs) and small-of-the-back holsters (with the gun right on the base of your spine) would be REALLY bad ideas. Even strong-side holsters (with the gun on your hip) would make me think twice.

This is one of those situations in which off-the-body carry might not be such a bad idea. A tank bag with a pistol in a paddle holster, for example, sounds pretty reasonable. No danger to you if you fall off the bike. Easy to access when on the bike. Slip it onto your hip when you get off the bike. Not bad, really.

 

[Bobarino]

i use the same setup to ride with that i use every day. a kydex IWB stongside about 4:00. don't even notice its there. its next to useless while i'm actually on the bike since my riding jacket would inhibit me from being able to draw in any sort of reasonable time, especially when zipped to my pants. i carry that way mostly so when i do get off the bike, i don't have to take the gun out and put it on possibly brandishing unncessarily.

and for the record, i started out right, on an EX500 three years ago and am glad i did. no crashes or accidents, just a stationary drop or two. got my eye on a '98-'01 VFR800 for next year though. can't wait.

Bobby

 

[Missashot]

I have a Suzuki GSX-R750. I wear full race leathers, so carrying in my leathers would be pointless.
When I do carry, it is usually in my tank bag. The also make fanny packs with built in holsters. That may be an option for you.
I just can't imagine getting into a shoot out with someone while riding. If I can't out run them, I hopefully could out maneuver them.
Congratulations on the bike. It's always good to see more people out there riding. Hope you figure out what works best for you on the carrying issue.

 

[Red_SC]

Sig245,

The article posted by Smurfslayer was the one I was referring to. I don't remember a lot from my Probablility and Statistics class back in college, but I do remember one thing: You can use statistics to prove pretty much anything you want to. My point wasn't that cruisers are more dangerous than sportbikes, but that either has an inherant risk. I'm one of the most cautious riders you'll meet, but if I hit the pavement, there's going to be a layer of gear between my skin and the black sandpaper. Gear isn't only for a person that rides recklessly or for sportbike riders, it should be considered by everyone. Guess what I was trying to say is don't write someone off as a reckless sportbike rider just 'cause they're wearing gear. My uncle also wears gear, and I'm positive his cruiser rarely goes much over the speed limit.

Howdy Missashot, haven't talked to ya in a while.