Guns disguised as.......

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Ethan Verity said:
Maybe "loophole" isn't the right word, but that's exactly what I'm getting at. You can legally have a disguised gun, like a cane gun, without it being an AOW... just make it a muzzle loader.
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Legal to possess under federal law. I suspect it would still be considered a concealed weapon under many state laws, just not a concealed firearm. And in some states (New Jersey for one) a muzzleloader is considered a firearm under state law.
 
Victorian era pneumatic cane guns were finely crafted weapons of the time. They were muzzle loaders with the pressure chamber in the upper portion of the cane.


Blisset bamboo air cane, shown complete at the top and disassembled. The faux horn handle is a hollow metal tank.

upload_2022-10-21_9-2-59.png

A modern equivalent wouldn't be treated as a firearm under ATF, but some states may (conjecture on my part).

This French gunsmith produced .410 shotgun cane guns that were well regarded.

Screenshot 2022-10-21 at 09-06-04 Kate Tattersall Adventures.png
 
bubbaturbo said:
I looked at the ATF definition of AOW. Last sentence says "Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

Don't some of the weapons described above have rifled bores? What am I missing?
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-does-“any-other-weapon-mean
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It's important to read more than just the last sentence.
What does “any other weapon" mean?
The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
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Pistols and revolvers with a rifled bore can be concealed on the person......so not an AOW.
A pistol or revolver that has a smooth bore and can be concealed on the person......is an AOW.

This is why firearms like the Mossberg Shockwave have explicit instructions to not conceal under clothing.
 
dogtown tom said:
It's important to read more than just the last sentence.


Pistols and revolvers with a rifled bore can be concealed on the person......so not an AOW.
A pistol or revolver that has a smooth bore and can be concealed on the person......is an AOW.

This is why firearms like the Mossberg Shockwave have explicit instructions to not conceal under clothing.
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I am looking at the date on the ATF letter and the date of the ATF paragraph. Has something changed since the letter was written?
Does the pistol in the wallet holster in post 5 have a rifled barrel and is it an AOW or not?
 
I want an air powered cane gun that shoots liquid n-butyl mercaptan. Otherwise known as "Skunk Spray" ! Lets see how a pitbull or crackhead responds to that!

Skunks are one of natures ultimate peace loving and safe CCW holders IMO. Point rear and shoot... then flee for safety. BRILLIANT!!
 
bubbaturbo said:
I am looking at the date on the ATF letter and the date of the ATF paragraph. Has something changed since the letter was written?
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Only ATF knows. Sadly, ATF has never made determination letters public. Its up to the person requesting the determination to make it public.

I would imagine DeSantis would make it clear that their product makes a pistol an AOW.


Does the pistol in the wallet holster in post 5 have a rifled barrel and is it an AOW or not?
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No idea if it has a rifled barrel.
If it has a smooth bore its an AOW without that holster.
If it has a rifled barrel and can fire in the disguised configuration its an AOW as well.

Note that simply having an exposed trigger on a wallet holster doesn't make the pistol an AOW. Often it takes a determination letter.
 
Before I retired, I wrote or had input on some SOPs and learned pretty quickly that the more clear you were, the better result you got. "Do this." "Don't do this." "Never say this." But whatever I did, I tried not to leave things "open to interpretation" because, by definition, it was confusing and people would read things differently. Sometimes it took adding a little bit of the rationale in order for people to understand what we were saying. The BATF seems to be masters of poorly written regulations which is especially egregious because people can go to prison due to their incompetence and/or laziness.

When I read their definition of an AOW, it would never occur to me that putting a pistol into a wallet made it into an AOW. Government should not be trying to trick people into becoming lawbreakers.
 
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bubbaturbo said:
Before I retired, I wrote or had input on some SOPs and learned pretty quickly that the more clear you were, the better result you got. "Do this." "Don't do this." "Never say this." But whatever I did, I tried not to leave things "open to interpretation" because, by definition, it was confusing and people would read things differently. Sometimes it took adding a little bit of the rationale in order for people to understand what we were saying. The BATF seems to be masters of poorly written regulations which is especially egregious because people can go to prison due to their incompetence and/or laziness.

When I read their definition of an AOW, it would never occur to me that putting a pistol into a wallet made it into an AOW. Government should not be trying to trick people into becoming lawbreakers.
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Agreed. Some people have better reading comprehension than others, but I look at ATF regs and get dizzy.

Same with NEC (nat'l electric code). Some of it is very hard to understand, still aced all my exams but it seems like whenever an fed/state agency writes laws and codes, it's like they make them intentionally confusing and show one code to 5 people and you get 3 with different interpretations and 2 that are just confused.
 
bubbaturbo said:
When I read their definition of an AOW, it would never occur to me that putting a pistol into a wallet made it into an AOW. Government should not be trying to trick people into becoming lawbreakers.
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That's not at all what the definition of "AOW" includes nor is that what their determination letters state.

You most certainly can put a pistol into a wallet and it not be considered an AOW.
 
Tennis bags are one of the all time great discreat bags for folders. Get a six pack with a divider and you can comfortably carry two rifles. External pockets also for accessories. Try to not go two cheap though. Not all racquet bags are equal. Some of the cheap ones just fall apart at the seams even for tennis gear. Technifibre racquet bags are some of the stronger ones. Thermal protection gives your firearms a bit more protection from bumps and dings.

Yes I use them.. for Tennis of course (my main sport) but also for Firearms.
 
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