Gunshop owner. Two issues. A big deal to you?

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Well, . . . not so much a mistake on his part. He goes back and forth on it and has for some time, . . . . I think he's going to keep it at this point and just enjoy shooting it.
 
#1 - I agree with most here that asking to return the gun would normally come at a cost, maybe $200 is a bit much though. A lot of it comes down to the percent that would be and the manner in which he handled and explained it.

#2 - This would probably stop me from ever going back. Completely unacceptable!
 
You people are priceless. "It's not a library"? Really? :eek: "They're in it to make a profit"? Double really? :rolleyes: :uhoh: "a stupid tax"? :cuss: I've spent 20+ years in retail and I can assure you I understand that businesses are in it to make money. However, they are not in it to piss off the customers; at least that's how it used to be. You piss off one customer you not only loose that customer, but potentially many more once word spreads. And believe me, word will spread. You piss off too many customers, the next thing you're doing is hanging up a going out of business sign. Of course, most gun shop owners seem to be totally oblivious to this very ideology, choosing instead to blame the economy for their loss.

So, a guy takes a brand new unfired (unused) firearm back to the shop where he bought it, in less than a week because he changed his mind. He's only offered $300 back after spending $500 and all anyone says is that "it's not a library"? :uhoh: Why is this an acceptable business practice? This puts gun shop owners and gun salesmen right up there with used car salesmen. I'm going to have to call it like I see it. A crook is a crook, whether they are selling used cars or guns.

Would we accept this type of business practice from the place where we buy our televisions, washer/dryers, or any other big ticket item? Of course not. We'd be pissed if we bought a $1,000 TV, discovered that we had to return it, reasoning doesn't matter, and the owners only give us $650 for it. When we ask why, they give us one of these excuses: you paid for it; you left the store with it; you took it out of the box; or you plugged it in once you got home. This would not be acceptable to us and would be considered a very bad business practice. So why do we accept this type of bad practice from gun shop owners?

Are they there for us, or are we there for them? If it's the latter, then it's no wonder why most gun shop owners have a "god" complex. Well, "gods" I'm not making any more purchases until a gun shop owner steps up and provides proper customer service and runs an ethical business. And by the way, a "Restocking Fee" is just another crooked bogus way of unethically taking money from the customer.

A note to the customer: They do the things they do because we bend over and take it, and they know it. The only way we'll get back to fair and proper business practices by gun shop owners is to stop buying extra guns that you don't really need.
 
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It does seem that there is an odd finality to a gun purchase. I understand IF it were taken out and shot. . . .but for one that hadn't been shot, it is no different than a gun that had been handled by 1,000 people in the store.

I wonder how much of this type of thing would be going on if there were no BS forms to fill out? Hard to answer that one.

So paper was done on a gun. Paper shreads pretty easy and a new form is filled out just as easy. I can see the point of CactusJackArizona. It is one reason why I take a LONG time trying to decide about a gun . . . and why it angers me that "returns" are hit so hard.

Oh well, . . . how many of us have lost a good deal of money as a result of a gun purchase? *raising hand*
 
Personally, (and on THR I know I'm in good company), I despise unnecessary government regulation over law abiding gun owners. That said, as much as I disagree with law abiding anti-2A campaigners, NON-LAW ABIDING GUNOWNERS are a bigger threat to our freedoms than any 'anti' you care to name. They are CRIMINALS, and in addition to giving the antis justification for their arguments, they frequently do ACTUALLY ENDANGER THE PUBLIC.

A dealer who casually asks his customers to commit a federal felony to cover an improper sale? That's not just a slap on the wrist crime...that could be charged as CONSPIRACY. I wouldn't just not go back to him... I'd have reported him. He's not a 'good guy', he's not a friend, he's a potential threat to his community, to our 2A rights, and to the personal liberty of anyone who engages in such business with him, even just to 'do him a favor'.

I'm not one of those 'never trust a cop' types, I guess. The law is clear, and a person who upholds it is an ally, even if not always a friend. A person who does not is an enemy, period.
 
Cactus Jack Arizona said:
You people are priceless. "It's not a library"? Really? :eek: "They're in it to make a profit"? Double really? :rolleyes: :uhoh: "a stupid tax"? :cuss: I've spent 20+ years in retail and I can assure you I understand that businesses are in it to make money. However, they are not in it to piss off the customers; at least that's how it used to be. You piss off one customer you not only loose that customer, but potentially many more once word spreads. And believe me, word will spread. You piss off too many customers, the next thing you're doing is hanging up a going out of business sign. Of course, most gun shop owners seem to be totally oblivious to this very ideology, choosing instead to blame the economy for their loss.

So, a guy takes a brand new unfired (unused) firearm back to the shop where he bought it, in less than a week because he changed his mind. He's only offered $300 back after spending $500 and all anyone says is that "it's not a library"? :uhoh: Why is this an acceptable business practice? This puts gun shop owners and gun salesmen right up there with used car salesmen. I'm going to have to call it like I see it. A crook is a crook, whether they are selling used cars or guns.

Would we accept this type of business practice from the place where we buy our televisions, washer/dryers, or any other big ticket item? Of course not. We'd be pissed if we bought a $1,000 TV, discovered that we had to return it, reasoning doesn't matter, and the owners only give us $650 for it. When we ask why, they give us one of these excuses: you paid for it; you left the store with it; you took it out of the box; or you plugged it in once you got home. This would not be acceptable to us and would be considered a very bad business practice. So why do we accept this type of bad practice from gun shop owners?

Are they there for us, or are we there for them? If it's the latter, then it's no wonder why most gun shop owners have a "god" complex. Well, "gods" I'm not making any more purchases until a gun shop owner steps up and provides proper customer service and runs an ethical business. And by the way, a "Restocking Fee" is just another crooked bogus way of unethically taking money from the customer.

A note to the customer: They do the things they do because we bend over and take it, and they know it. The only way we'll get back to fair and proper business practices by gun shop owners is to stop buying extra guns that you don't really need.
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I'm probably in the minority in saying that I completely agree with you. I think the counterargument that could be used against your point is that these are very small business owners who sell very low volumes of relatively expensive items. Setting aside that these items are guns, there are very few remaining retail shops that fit this definition. In part, it's because of this type of behavior but it may simply be that there is no longer an economic model that allows this type of business to function.
I don't understand gun sales enough to understand why, if it could be determined that the gun was not shot, and all of the original paperwork was in original condition, that the gun could not be sold as 'new'. Or worst case, an 'open box'. Surely gun stores open the boxes of new guns to show customers who ultimately decide not to buy them. This one just took a short trip to the customers home.
B
 
The root cause of both situations in the OP is excessive chumminess between the customers and the shop owner. This raises expectations, on both sides, that rules/policies can be "bent," on account of "friendship." ("Familiarity breeds contempt.") Thus, on the one hand, the customer comes to expect a "sweetheart deal" on a multiple trade (forgetting that the shop owner is in business to make money). And on the other hand, the shop owner feels comfortable asking the customer to help cover up a mistake on his part when the efforts to cover it up turn it into a serious legal violation. The moral of this story is to keep your business relationships at arm's length. The gun dealer is not your "friend" even though you spend time chatting in his shop.
 
So, a guy takes a brand new unfired (unused) firearm back to the shop where he bought it, in less than a week because he changed his mind.
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Go trade in your Honda on a new Mercedes. Take it home. Come back next week and tell them you think you'd like them to take it back, you've just changed your mind and maybe will get something else.

Sure do wish the gun selling thing was just like buying a toaster or a TV. But it isn't. Maybe in 20 years it will be more like that, but that's not the sales model US gun buyers have to work with now, and it probably won't be until we get GCA'68 repealed, at least.
 
Go trade in your Honda on a new Mercedes. Take it home. Come back next week and tell them you think you'd like them to take it back, you've just changed your mind and maybe will get something else.
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Excellent analogy.
Somewhere someone decided that guns should be sold like cars, but with lower margins. I'd like to meet that man in a dark alley.
 
The local "stupid tax" gun shop owner stays in business because he is the only game in town and the surrounding 30+ miles.
 
Texan Scott Personally, (and on THR I know I'm in good company), I despise unnecessary government regulation over law abiding gun owners. That said, as much as I disagree with law abiding anti-2A campaigners, NON-LAW ABIDING GUNOWNERS are a bigger threat to our freedoms than any 'anti' you care to name. They are CRIMINALS, and in addition to giving the antis justification for their arguments, they frequently do ACTUALLY ENDANGER THE PUBLIC.

A dealer who casually asks his customers to commit a federal felony to cover an improper sale? That's not just a slap on the wrist crime...that could be charged as CONSPIRACY. I wouldn't just not go back to him... I'd have reported him. He's not a 'good guy', he's not a friend, he's a potential threat to his community, to our 2A rights, and to the personal liberty of anyone who engages in such business with him, even just to 'do him a favor'.

I'm not one of those 'never trust a cop' types, I guess. The law is clear, and a person who upholds it is an ally, even if not always a friend. A person who does not is an enemy, period.
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Nailed it.
 
If a trace were ever done on that gun, it would show as sold by the dealer to your brother, not to the subsequent buyer.

As far as evaluating this dealer, question #1 kinda becomes a moot point in light of question #2. I'd get out of that shop as quickly as I could and never darken his doorway again. If he's that dishonest, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that you or your brother could end up on someone else's 4473, or a completely forged 4473, in the future. :what: Think about that.
 
Are shop owners actually making that much profit? I knew they made some profit [and they need to for their business], but $200 above their $300 cost? That puts gun buying into another frame of thought.
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Markup on a new Title I firearm is typically 10-15% unless it's something really hot like a KSG. Used firearms and accessories are where you make money, new guns just bring people in the door. Heck, on some new gun sales the state and CC merchant processor combined can make more than we do.

Again, once the gun goes out the door it's not NIB any more; my guess is the dealer would mark it as used or LNIB for anywhere from $400-425.
 
Handled by 1000 people...

Yeah, I may be with Cactus Jack, too...if it's a rack gun (as opposed to one from the storeroom or just ordered in and opened RIGHT THERE in front of the customer).

Really, if it's been racked behind the counter and handled by whomever wants to see it, prints, etc....what IS the difference to one that's was taken home in the box for a few days, and then returned, papers and all, manual and maybe plastic bag(s).

40% seems kinda steep considering he's going to sell it FOR THE SAME PRICE again (you bet he will).

C'mon...:scrutiny:
 
Alex: "The gun dealer is not your "friend" even though you spend time chatting in his shop."

I couldn't agree more. No matter how friendly they appear, don't trust any salesman/saleswoman. Do your research before hand and get to know the product better than the salesman. That way, when they feed you a line of bull, you'll know it.
 
Medal: "If a trace were ever done on that gun, it would show as sold by the dealer to your brother, not to the subsequent buyer."

No, not if there is another Form 4473 filed on the returned firearm by the next buyer. If the gun shop owner sold it "under the table" to another person, then yes it would go back to the original buyer.
 
#1, he IS in it to make money, and why should he pay more to you than his distributor for the same gun? Granted, he might actually pay a little more to his distributor than a customer bringing back a gun, but he won't be able to sell it as "new" anymore either.

#2 AAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! :banghead::cuss::what:
need I say more?
 
As far as one goes...I get where he's coming from. If not for #2, I'd say he just felt he couldn't in good conscience sell the gun again as new, and wasn't willing to take a hit on it just because your brother is indecisive.

However, given #2...I'd never go to the place again, and I would probably even give serious thought to contacting the ATF. If that was anything beyond a joke, then he should NOT be a FFL holder. Ideally the paperwork wouldn't be needed, but since it is, it should be filled out properly and legally.

I know when my fiancee purchased a gun and forgot to sign one of the spots on the 4473, the shop sent a copy of the relevant section filled in again by a shop employee, and requested she fill it back out and mail it back in. Included was a envelope preaddressed with a stamp already on it. That's a bit above and beyond, but either way, it's the shop owners job to make sure the form gets properly filled out, whether that means a polite phone call, or setting up a meeting with the person.
 
Sam: "Go trade in your Honda on a new Mercedes. Take it home. Come back next week and tell them you think you'd like them to take it back, you've just changed your mind and maybe will get something else."

Respectfully Sam, this is not even close to being the same thing. Do we get to take the pistol to the local range to test "shoot" the gun before we buy it? Absolutely not. We are therefore buying a firearm untested. The only way to be sure that the gun will be the right gun for the individual is to shoot it. The consumer is then financially punished by the gun shops every time they purchase a gun and are not happy with it. How is this the fault of the consumer?

Do we get to test drive a car before we buy it? Of course. And seriously, who's not going to like a Mercedes? ;) I'd love to have a Mercedes SLS AMG. :what: It's the sexiest car ever made. :D
 
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Once the transfer from LGS to customer is complete the gun is no longer NIB, there is/was an owner of record for that gun.

They are the rules set by the feds, manufacturers and distributors. I think the LGS did the right thing, the gun is not worth as much after the transfer as it was before the transfer.

Situation #2 - This LGS will not be in business long unless he can operate out of a jail cell.
 
Orion8472 said:
It does seem that there is an odd finality to a gun purchase. I understand IF it were taken out and shot. . . .but for one that hadn't been shot, it is no different than a gun that had been handled by 1,000 people in the store.

I wonder how much of this type of thing would be going on if there were no BS forms to fill out? Hard to answer that one.

So paper was done on a gun. Paper shreads pretty easy and a new form is filled out just as easy. I can see the point of CactusJackArizona. It is one reason why I take a LONG time trying to decide about a gun . . . and why it angers me that "returns" are hit so hard.

Oh well, . . . how many of us have lost a good deal of money as a result of a gun purchase? *raising hand*
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Would you want to be sold a "new" gun that had already been bought and taken home? I am sure most people would consider that a "like new" gun. No one would pay the same price for a "like new" gun as they would a "new" gun.

You have to realize the store owner can no longer sell the gun as new, so he has to discount the price. It doesn't matter what your brother did or did not do while he had it. No way to prove what could have happened. (Please understand I am not accusint him). But in my mind if I am buying a gun and the owner says it is like new, that the original owner brought it back the next day, the first thing I am going to do is wonder why he brought it back so soon. What was wrong with it for him to now want it 24 hours later.

Shot or not the gun is now used
 
So, a guy takes a brand new unfired (unused) firearm back to the shop where he bought it, in less than a week because he changed his mind. He's only offered $300 back after spending $500 and all anyone says is that "it's not a library"? Why is this an acceptable business practice?
...
Would we accept this type of business practice from the place where we buy our televisions, washer/dryers, or any other big ticket item? Of course not. We'd be pissed if we bought a $1,000 TV, discovered that we had to return it, reasoning doesn't matter, and the owners only give us $650 for it.
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Actually, it's becoming quite common for stores that sell those items to charge a "restocking fee" of 10-20% if they are returned. Same reason as stated here: they don't feel like loaning out goods. There are people who go out and buy a big screen TV right before the Superbowl and then return it the next week. There are people who buy high dollar clothing and apparel to wear out for a weekend and then return it.

The whole concept of "returning" an item has become so abused that retailers are taking necessary steps to curb the process. I don't see a problem with that. For a *defective* non-gun item you already bought the item. "Changing your mind" shouldn't be an option. If its truly defective you should be able to exchange for an identical non-defective one. For guns the paperwork involved means often working with a manufacturer to handle fixing/replacing an item.

For all other issues though - "changing your mind" etc, then it very well SHOULD cost the buyer something in the process.
 
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