ColtPythonElite
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So you felt uneasy about the guy possibly asking you to commit a crime, but felt comfortable enough to go back and do business with him again?
Gunshop owner. Two issues. A big deal to you?
- Thread starter Orion8472
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That's a fair point. But surely the dealer could restock the item, and sell it for $25-$50 less than an unsold sealed box unit. Advertised as opened, never shot. Full disclosure on purchased and returned unused. Fully compliant with the law. He could charge the returning customer the $25-$50 restocking fee and I suspect, so long as the buyer is a good customer (per my car example) life goes on and everyone is happy. Charging what is essentially a $200 restocking fee is still near usury and ensures that he will have one less customer to have to contend with in the future.
I know if I was looking for a $500 gun and could get $25-50 off for an unused one, I'd buy it. But I don't get off on that 'new gun smell.
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P.S. BTW, and this is an honest question, I don't know why the completion of a 4473 form defines a firearm henceforth as 'used'? Used is a business term referring to condition. It is not, to my knowledge, an ATF term linked to the form. So it seems that the 4473 could be filled out, the item brought home in a sealed box, the unopened box returned and restocked, monies returned. Yes the item and initial purchaser has had a 4473 completed but is the item new or used? Again, if I could save 5% off the price with the knowledge that the item has had a 4473 submitted but was never used, I'd go for it.
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test drive
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if this was not a special order item a 200 bucks restocking fee would keep me from ever coming back.
now in YOUR case i look at it like this. he's buddy buddy enough to ask you to commit a fellony for him but not buddy enough to charge a descent restock fee that would allso keep me from coming back
now in YOUR case i look at it like this. he's buddy buddy enough to ask you to commit a fellony for him but not buddy enough to charge a descent restock fee that would allso keep me from coming back
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. so long as the buyer is a good customer (per my car example) life goes on and everyone is happy. Charging what is essentially a $200 restocking fee is still near usury and ensures that he will have one less customer to have to contend with in the future.
I know if I was looking for a $500 gun and could get $25-50 off for an unused one, I'd buy it. But I don't get off on that 'new gun smell.
I do agree that the $200 is too high, but I still think you have to expect to only geta standard used price (excelent condition) when you return it, not like new. the shop owner has no idea what this person di to it when he had it. Maybe he attempted to field srtip it and screwed something up. The one buying back has no reason. But I do agree that $200 on the $500 is a little high, and honestly based on the (what seems to be ) back and forth nature of the customer, he may not have wanted to have this person as a return customer, not worth the hassle maybe?
Yeah I see your point, and I think you walk a fine line about what verbage to use in a situation like this. If it has truely not benn "used" but no longer new, maybe preowned? But that still places a mental image of usage. Maybe "an open box item". Best Buy and electronic stores use they and I am always looking for a deal with their open box.
IMHO, I think taking the gun back and charging a 20% "restocking" fee, then shipping the gun back to the company and have the item resold as a "reconditioned" item at %15 off new could be a viable option. Of course the gun companies would have to be ok with this. I buy most of my electronics as "reconditioned" items
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JustinJ
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By that reasoning very few crimes would ever get reported. How do you know your complaint won't be the first against him? If not it would at the least demonstrate a pattern. Or that upon investigation they won't find other documents that have been forged or that even the one you were asked to forge was done so by someone else?
A business is in business to make a profit for sure. I imagine he made a profit on the original trade/purchase. When the gun was brought back it is my understanding that it was for the purpose of another trade. IMHO the owner is an idiot who has no idea what he is doing for a couple of reasons pertaining to #1.
He could take the return against the sale of another gun, maybe even a used gun, and turn a profit on the trade in as well as on the next gun sold. Heck, charge the customer a 20% restocking fee and make your margin on the gun he walks out with. A total of 5 guns are now involved in thie scenario and the owner stands to make a profit on 4 of them AND 20% on the other. Most customers understand a restocking fee and will accept it easier than some random figure like $200.
I dont think "the customer is always right" but he is the customer. You have a right to make a profit. Most of your customers understand that. Customers want what they want and, if you can't give it to them, they will find it elsewhere. I had a lot of customers that I was glad to see walking away. I even recommended that some of them find another supplier on occasion because they just were not worth the trouble. Maybe that is the message this guy wanted to send.
#2 would force me to call the law but the two scenarios together don't make much sense. If he knows you well enough to ask you to commit a federal crime then I would think he would give you a good deal on a gun trade.
He could take the return against the sale of another gun, maybe even a used gun, and turn a profit on the trade in as well as on the next gun sold. Heck, charge the customer a 20% restocking fee and make your margin on the gun he walks out with. A total of 5 guns are now involved in thie scenario and the owner stands to make a profit on 4 of them AND 20% on the other. Most customers understand a restocking fee and will accept it easier than some random figure like $200.
I dont think "the customer is always right" but he is the customer. You have a right to make a profit. Most of your customers understand that. Customers want what they want and, if you can't give it to them, they will find it elsewhere. I had a lot of customers that I was glad to see walking away. I even recommended that some of them find another supplier on occasion because they just were not worth the trouble. Maybe that is the message this guy wanted to send.
#2 would force me to call the law but the two scenarios together don't make much sense. If he knows you well enough to ask you to commit a federal crime then I would think he would give you a good deal on a gun trade.
Nobody forced the brother to sell the gun back to the dealer. If he wasn't willing to take the loss (which I agree was excessive) he was not obligated to do so. He could sell it elsewhere or keep it.
It IS entirely possible that this dealer (especially if they are a low-volume dealer) simply wants or needs to keep their inventory at a limited level. He's already traded away a new gun for three used, instead of cash to buy another new for inventory. He certainly discourages trades....
It IS entirely possible that this dealer (especially if they are a low-volume dealer) simply wants or needs to keep their inventory at a limited level. He's already traded away a new gun for three used, instead of cash to buy another new for inventory. He certainly discourages trades....
788Ham
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Situation #2, IF you or your brother had signed that form, you'd have been just as guilty as the shop owner, just as liable to spend time in the pen, maybe with this guy as a bunkmate! This gun shop owners name isn't Bubba is it?
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Orion8472
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From this point on, . . . Situation #1 is no longer an issue. Nothing more needs to be discussed. What's done is done, and gunshops operate for their bottom line, not customers. Caveat emptor.
788Ham, yeah, . . . when the request was made, I stood their dumbfounded for a few moments asking myself in my head, "what. . . . . this isn't right". In the past, I would have let someone "walk over me", but thank whatever is out there bigger than me. . . that I refused. I would not like prison.
I appreciate all the replies. I'm still unsure if his request was a joke. . . if I HAD started to forge a name, he would have stopped me and said, "I'm only kidding, . . . that's illegal." The situation was [and still is] too vague to know for certain. But from this point on, I choose to err on the side of caution and not walk through his door again.
788Ham, yeah, . . . when the request was made, I stood their dumbfounded for a few moments asking myself in my head, "what. . . . . this isn't right". In the past, I would have let someone "walk over me", but thank whatever is out there bigger than me. . . that I refused. I would not like prison.
I appreciate all the replies. I'm still unsure if his request was a joke. . . if I HAD started to forge a name, he would have stopped me and said, "I'm only kidding, . . . that's illegal." The situation was [and still is] too vague to know for certain. But from this point on, I choose to err on the side of caution and not walk through his door again.
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Orion8472
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Well, I can see the point of your post. Whereas I think it may be good for a gunstore to call into the NICS to see if a person has a record [to determine if they can legally possess a firearm], but the 4473 form is ridiculous and DOES tend to lend it self to future registration. The illegal part of Situation #2 was [IF he was serious] asking me to forge a signature. As for the forms, I literally dispise them and what they stand for. There should be NO paperwork past an NICS phone call.
ForumSurfer
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Situation 1: I know full well that if I trade at any store, I'm getting the short end of the stick or the owner wouldn't be in business. It is always better to sell them online and exercise patience, you'll come out closer to even or to the good in the end sometimes.
2. I'm not ok with that. I wouldn't be back. If he is willing to break that law, who knows what else he's willing to fudge. Not cool since his FFL log is filled with my personal data. The laws stink, but they are there. It is what it is.
2. I'm not ok with that. I wouldn't be back. If he is willing to break that law, who knows what else he's willing to fudge. Not cool since his FFL log is filled with my personal data. The laws stink, but they are there. It is what it is.
dogtown tom
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Horsehockey.
I believe in the 2nd Amendment, but I also believe in the rule of law......and currently the law states that the gun dealer must obtain the signature of the buyer on a 4473..........not asking others to forge a signature.
He's a crook, an idiot, and not likely to be a dealer for very long. Supporters of the 2nd Amendment don't need people like him and should not tolerate those who willfully violate the law.
If the dealer is asking near strangers to violate the law, what other crimes is he committing? Selling drugs? Evading taxes? Selling guns off the books to criminals?
I'm sorry, but confusing forgery and other violations of Federal law is IN NO FREAKING WAY related to our 2nd Amendment rights.
I would love to see the NFA & GCA disappear........but guess what? They aren't going away anytime soon, probably never. You can argue all you want about the ATF being unconstitutional, blah, blah blah..........but it IS the law. Don't like it? Instead of ranting on a gun forum become the test case.
The NFA was passed in 1934 and the GCA in 1968........what are you waiting for?
It's easy to blame ATF becaue they are required to enforce Federal law, but the real blame is on us. WE elected the Congress that passed the NFA and GCA. If you really dislike the ATF you don't waste your breath preaching to the choir....you elect people to Congress that will reign in agencies that abuse their authority.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
The store owner was an idiot to ask someone else to put their signature on the form since he has no way of knowing if the person he's asking truly [strike]believes in the 2nd Amendment as it was written or if he just gave lip service to it like so many supposedly conservatives do these days[/strike] is willing to go to jail for him because he made a dumb mistake and is too lazy to fix it.
This isn't a Second Amendment issue. The shop owner was not staging a protest, he was just sloppy in performing the obligations he's committed himself to perform and is so slobbishly unethical that he'd try, in essence, to trick someone into violating federal law rather than do the very simple lawful thing and correct his oversight.
If the shop owner was selling guns and refusing to fill out and file 4473s, publicly, as an act of civil disobedience, I'd maybe agree with you that this is a rights and Constitutionality issue. Some slob putting a customer at legal risk just to save the nickle for a phone call is just being a jackass.
dogtown tom
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How many firearms have you bought from licensed dealers since 1968?
Even one purchase would have you complete a 4473.
dogtown tom
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So the very ATF regulations you believe to be unconstitutonal you WILLINGLY follow? You blame a "leftist government".....yet there have been a number of VERY conservative administrations since 1934.
That's a far cry from the WilliamDahl that was a "true believer in the 2nd Amendment" earlier today:
And this:
So..... anyone reporting a dealer for several willful violations of Federal law does not truly believe in the 2nd Amendment? Yet you, who complies with ATF regulations that infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights, is a true believer?
Apparently your moral compass only works when it applies to others.
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I don't think it matters that the form he wanted forged was a 4473, 1099, or a blank check. A business owner asked a patron to forge a signature! Maybe next time he will need a signature on a credit card receipt.
What we have here is a person who is knowingly attempting to break the law. In this instance it was a law related to gun ownership that you may or may not agree with. Is it okay to forge a name on a tax return? A car title? I believe there are certain people that don't need to have a gun DESPITE my firm belief in 2a rights so I am willing to accept a certain amount of paperwork that is designed to make sure those people don't get a gun, at least not leagally.
What we have here is a person who is knowingly attempting to break the law. In this instance it was a law related to gun ownership that you may or may not agree with. Is it okay to forge a name on a tax return? A car title? I believe there are certain people that don't need to have a gun DESPITE my firm belief in 2a rights so I am willing to accept a certain amount of paperwork that is designed to make sure those people don't get a gun, at least not leagally.
MachIVshooter
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Ummm, no. Not even close. Typical markup for a store like Wal Mart or Target is 15%-50% over cost. There may be a few small items they can increase by 100% or more, but they make their money in volume.
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Orion8472
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All 2nd ammendment arguments aside [and should be for another thread, I guess], . . . what is very odd about the situation [#2] is that my brother and I hadn't REALLY gone into that store for a long period of time. It wasn't like we had been customers for years. When he asked me, . . . it was really a [in my mind] "What the hell?" type of thing. So IF he was serious [and not joking], I DO have to wonder what he asks his actual buddies to do for him. Sure, we had some good conversation, but . . . . . . . .
Anyway, joke or not, I'm taking my business elsewhere.
Anyway, joke or not, I'm taking my business elsewhere.
I am confused on how forging a signature has anything to do with the 2A. It is one thing to be against a unfair law and not promoting it. It is an completely different thing when you impersonate someone. By forging a signature you are in fact "speaking" for that person. You do not have the right to make decisions for others. When someone ask you to forge someones signature (regardless about your feelings for the paper in question) he is asking you to make a decision for that person. That is not a 2A issue
Lex Luthier
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The unwillingness to accept the consequences of one's poor choices and NOT learn from the experience is unacceptable. While the store owner should never had asked your brother to forge a signature, he had every right to get a sizable piece of the sale your brother backed out of and wasted his time.
I wonder how much time and resources the LGS had into this transaction: answering questions, researching information, filling out paperwork, keeping the lights on, being patient. He might not have even wanted to do the deal, and now he has to repeat all of the above.
The most respectful action we can take in this short life is to not waste other people's time.
I wonder how much time and resources the LGS had into this transaction: answering questions, researching information, filling out paperwork, keeping the lights on, being patient. He might not have even wanted to do the deal, and now he has to repeat all of the above.
The most respectful action we can take in this short life is to not waste other people's time.
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Orion8472
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Lex. . . . .dude. Seriously. Drop it. The brother portion is done. Besides, you were not there for the transactions. I doubt the owner was put out any by his discussions or the small bit of paper work.
Everyone, as I stated before, . . . situation #1 has resolved itself for this thread. Situation #2 is the topic now.
Besides, you were not there for the transactions. I doubt the owner was put out any by his discussions or the small bit of paper work. Everyone, as I stated before, . . . situation #1 has resolved itself for this thread. Situation #2 is the topic now.
Arkansas Paul
Member
I would have been seriously pissed if a store owner asked me to participate in forging someone's signature, especially on that document. My gun rights are precious to me. Don't ask me to do something stupid that could get them taken away.
As perhaps the token lefty on this thread (yes, there are many lefty's who like guns), I think it's darn insulting (not to mention inaccurate and self-incriminating on your part) to assume that requesting the name of the gun dealer who is asking a customer to commit fraud is some lefty conspiracy. I have no idea if the one who posted it is a lefty, but as one, I would not, for this one infraction, recommend that.
Let the guy tank his business with his bad and shady business practices. In this case, this isn't me as lefty speaking, this is me as capitalist speaking.
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Let the guy tank his business with his bad and shady business practices. In this case, this isn't me as lefty speaking, this is me as capitalist speaking.
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