Gunsite Scout - What For?

[Triumph]

Guys - Not trying to be provocative just curious.

I don't get the LER scopes & why they are beneficial.
I also don't get the short barrel on a the Scout .308s.

I understand the gun is supposed to be
light but it seems to me you give away the long shot capabilities
of the .308 with the short barrel.
So if the Scout is for 200 yards & closer, why not a 30-30 with Hornady
Lever evolution.

If I read correctly the Gunsite Scouts were also designed
to be used for self defense in a pinch. It seems
the 30-30 is much faster at follow-up shots.

Please educate me. I think the Ruger Gunsite Scout
is neat, just not sure what it gets me that I don't already
have.

 

[Sam1911]

Probably nothing. It's a concept for a specific flavor of "do-all" rifle, trading heavily on the luster of Col. Cooper's name attached to the idea.

If you have another rifle, or even a modest collection of rifles, you probably have all the bases covered the Scout is supposed to do. It's really quite an interesting phenomenon just how many different rifles and kinds of rifles we all can be persuaded to buy, considering how very comprehensively their capabilities overlap in many cases.

Here are some threads on the concept: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=687569

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=675662

 

[adelbridge]

I do like long eye relief scopes because you can shoot with both eyes open. Shooting with both eyes open could be practical in dangerous situation. You give up about 10 minutes of usable daylight with a long eye relief scope vs typical 3.5" eye relief scope of similar make and model which is when most game animals show themselves. The other benefit of the GSC is the threaded barrel for suppressed shooting. Its a good gun but in the end it is a 2012 version of a 1898 battle rifle.

 

[cal30_sniper]

Even out of a short barrel, the .308 Win still has much more effective range than a .30-30 Win. I like levers a lot, but .30-30 doesn't hold a candle to .308 in ballistics.

I think a better question might be why do so many people insist on scoping lever action .30-30s. I could see scoping a scout rifle in .308 to give some extra range, but if you've got the ballistics of a .30-30, you can see anything you're capable of hitting and killing just fine with the naked eye.

 

[rcmodel]

It seems the 30-30 is much faster at follow-up shots.

But it isn't.

A good man with a bolt-action will cycle the bolt before the gun comes back down from recoil.

And the Scout with a 20-round mag will do it almost three times longer without stopping then a 30-30 with a 7-round mag.

rc

 

[cal30_sniper]

That being said, I really don't see the need for a LER scope in a rifle. Personally, I prefer either a SER scope, iron sights, or if you have to have forward mounted optics, a red-dot type setup. For a quick handling rifle, it's almost impossible to beat a holographic-style sight.

 

[Girodin]

but it seems to me you give away the long shot capabilities
of the .308 with the short barrel.

How far do you want to shoot? I've seen 18" barreled guns shooting absurdly long ranges that are much much further than most people can shoot. I've shot my own 16" guns out to 600'. Sure if your focus is long range shooting then the longer barrel and every bit of velocity is nice. However, a 16" scout gun still has the legs to reach out to distances beyond what most shooters can make use of. Thus, if the focus is not long range, the weight and size advantage of a 16" gun might make a lot of sense.

 

[baz]

And the Scout with a 20-round mag will do it almost three times longer without stopping then a 30-30 with a 7-round mag.

Where can I find 20 round mags for the GSR?

 

[urbaneruralite]

I bet you could find that the Ruger bolt action feeds more reliably than the lever gun. The LER scope would be beneficial if you fed with stripper clips or ran a sight for co-witness.

I would rather ask: "why .308 or why a barrel less than 20"?"

 

[rcmodel]

Excuse me.

I guess they are 10-round mags.

rc

 

[baz]

I happen to like the scout rifle concept because with a LER scope I can shoot right handed though left eye dominant. As for the short barrel length, you might find this article insightful.

 

[psyopspec]

Probably nothing. It's a concept for a specific flavor of "do-all" rifle, trading heavily on the luster of Col. Cooper's name attached to the idea.

I agree with this. I've wanted a scout rifle built to the COL's specifications for some time, but it's perpetually on the bottom of my list because it doesn't actually do anything other guns in my safe couldn't. But I still think it's a neat idea for a swiss-army type rifle.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Your mistake is to assume a 20" 30-30 has performance anywhere similar to a 16" 308

A 16" 308 has the power to hit targets and kill game well out past what most people can shoot and is still a 300yd ++ deer round




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[Float Pilot]

Back when I worked in the bush villages I always had two or three model 94 Winchesters in my shop because the local indigenous personnel would get excited while poaching a moose and jam up the M-94 action with a cartridge trapped in the lever mechanism. So I would get the knock on the door followed by ' Don't shoot White Cop, my rifle is stuck again." They called me "White Cop" because is was too hard to say my name without any front teeth and a fierce hang-over.

Lever actions like the M-94 do not do so swell when full of river silt, dust , mud and rust.
One reason they were never very successful as military weapons. A good military style bolt action is much easier to maintain in the field, particularly without tools. Nobody ever came over to have me un-jam a Model 70.

Col Cooper was into the idea of a short rifle which would handle in close quarters and heavy brush like a carbine, yet still be able to engage targets out to 300 meters when the terrain opened up. Thus the Scout Scope option... The same reason the military eventually went to a similar placement for battle optics on the M-4

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Lever actions like the M-94 do not do so swell when full of river silt, dust , mud and rust.
One reason they were never very successful as military weapons.

Another reason is, once the magazine is empty, it's slow to reload. The Russian Army in WWI bought the M1895 Winchester, with its box magazine, and specified it have a clip slot, so it could be reloaded as fast as a bolt rifle.

Which, by the way, is one reason for the LER scope on the Scout Rifle -- so it can be reloaded with stripper clips.

 

[Float Pilot]

That is why I think a 1903 actioned short rifle in 30-06, 338-06 or 35 Whelen , would be a slick scout rifle with a Scout Scope and stripper clips.
The same goes to a converted Enfield. Either 308 or 303...

 

[jmr40]

The Ruger version of the scout rifle is way overweight. Cooper envisioned a LIGHTWEIGHT rifle that could be used primarily as a survival rifle. Hunting most game animals and for SD in a pinch. It was never meant to be a primary combat rifle. Or as a primary hunting rifle

According to his criteria an optic was optional. He did want quality iron sights. He prefered the forward mounted scope (if the user chose to use optics) primaily because he wanted to be able to quicky reload bolt guns with stripper clips, not because it was better optically.

He did not say it had to be a bolt rifle, he felt a lever 30-30 was a viable option, but did prefer a bit more power and range that the 308 and similar rounds offered. Depending on the part of the world it would be used in. He liked the 375 Steyr for Africa, and the 7-08 for countries where military rounds are forbidden.

Cooper had a lot of good ideas, but his foward mounted scope was a dud. A low powered scope mounted conventionally is faster for up close shooting and much better for longer range shooting. This is by far the most commonly used set up used by the guys shooting in the 3 gun competitions where fast shooting at a variety of ranges from very close to intermediate is required. A quality 1-4X scope offers around 5" of eye releif and is as easy to shoot with both eyes open as an EER scope or a dot sight.

Personally, I think a 18"-20" stainless Hawkeye with a 1-4X scope on it in QD mounts with irons as a backup would make a better scout rifle than the
Ruger scout offering. It would be lighter, cheaper, and with stainless metal and a synthetic stock. For it's intended use the added expense and trouble of the detachable mags would not be an improvement in my opinion.

Thus the Scout Scope option... The same reason the military eventually went to a similar placement for battle optics on the M-4

Extensive testing by the military has shown that a low powered scope mounted conventionally is the best option. The Trijicon ACOG is the most used opitc in the military. It is designed to be mounted on the receiver, not forward on the barrel.

This photo shows a typical military optical sight.

 

[Boattale]

Scout rifle is all about a short light bolt action battle rifle. Something that nobody needs or has real world utility with what's been developed since the advent of the M-16 and Ak 47. Cool enough to look at and debate about whats best for this or that with one, but still, really. Not all that good for anything. Other than dreaming about.

 

[tomrkba]

The forward mounted scope may be a dud, but the forward mounted rail is perfect for a red dot optic. I'd prefer that the rail was farther back so I could mount a variable scope, but that's the way it comes.

The reason I am even interested in it is because it is magazine fed, comes in both right and left handed configuration, includes a rail, and has a muzzle attachment. It's about time a company offered a bolt action rifle with these features.

 

[FMF Doc]

From what I understnad of it, the scout style scope, also called Intermediate Eye Relief (IER) of Long Eye Relief (LER) is supposed to allow the shooter to shoot keeping both eyes open, but still provide the necessary magnification and aiming reticle. As for the chambering, .308 is still a great all around choice. The 30-30 is not a bad choice, but it lacks the power required for the largest of game, like the brown bears. As for barrel length, it isn't a huge issue. The .308 is not perticularly sensitive to barrel length as compared to others. 16 is a bit short, but it is still effective. I would have liked to see 18 inches with a more reasonalbe flash-hider. I will add, however, that if you plan to run a supressor on the Ruger Scout, it is a whole new game. Lastly, the great Col. Coopers idea called for a detachable magazine, in line with the duel role of a scout in noth hunting and military. I am not the authority, but I have done exhaustive research on not only this rifle, but the history and concept of the sout rifle. Take it for what you will.

 

[Float Pilot]

In my last unit we only had Aim Point red dot type sights on our M-4s besides the folding sights. Ok for closer range reflex shooting... You could see what was going on around you much better with both eyes open. A few of us brought along private purchase tele-optics.

I have a Shorty M-1A (no wait that was lost in a fishing boat sinking) way I put a Scout Scope mount onto way back when the Idea came out.... It has never proved useful

 

[conrad427]

I was under the impression that the ruger was not the rifle the good COL. had in mind at all. Wasn't the styer scout with the much larger round more what he had in mind anyway? Seems like a good rifle for something, i guess. As far as scopes, i always shoot any type of sighting system with both eyes open regardless of LER SER NER whatever. Dont most people do as well? Or am I a weird-o?

 

[Art Eatman]

What was found in shoot-and-scoot competitions at Gunsite was that the forward mount scope allowed faster acquisition of a target. People with Scout rifles, once available, won the matches.

Cooper did not intend that the rifle substitute as a regular combat weapon. A scout who gets into such a situation has already failed in his basic mission--which is to go find out, remain unseen, and report back.

 

[R.W.Dale]

If you put the 30-30 in a bolt action, like the Savage or Remington 788, and load it up to its potential with a spitzer bullet, a 20" 30-30 will actually outperform a 16" 308, using factory ammo in the latter. I dont give a hoot for any 30-30, understand, just stating the ballistic facts of the matter.

Having owned both rifles I can say unequivocaly that this is pure fantasy.

A 340 with its slow slow barrel loaded to "full potential " is a bomb and the 788 has no magazine space (see pic)


110g vmax


There is not a bbl length made that will make a 30-30 match even a 16" 308




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[ECVMatt]

I have always been curious about scout rifles, but the price of building one kept them out of my reach. When Ruger intro'd this rifle I was able to pick it up for less than $800 OTD. I was skeptical of the scout scope concept, but have come to embrace it on this rifle. I live near desert where we can shoot as far as we like. It is very easy to get some pretty long hits with this rifle and the speed up close is good enough to take out jack rabbits on the run (not all the time, but I am getting better). I like to take it out there because we might camp in a canyon that is only a few yard wide and then go out onto the open desert for 4x4'ing. This rifle is able to provide security in all these situations. I love my Marlin 336's, but they just can't reliably preform and distances past 200 yards for me and that is streching it. My scout rifle is easily good to go out to 400. I will admit that it takes some getting used to, but for some it works out great.