Old School Original Scout Rifle

[back40]

thanks for great posts and pics, willie. much appreciated.

annoyance with the untruth that something, while not a particularly bad tool, is touted as being better than it is?

"touted as being better than it is" sure seems like an opinion to me, therefor the term "untruth" can't really be applied.

why can't we all just appreciate different platforms for what they are, personal biases included, instead of constantly badgering the other party?

willie, i look forward to the .350 version.

 

[taliv]

Taliv and others may take issue with the concept of Cooper and the cabal that designed the Scout Rifle.

no vitriol here. and it's not that i'm opposed to the scout. there are hundreds if not thousands of gun designs. some are necessarily better than others, and the world is a better place with variety. The scout is a cool piece of history. cooper had some good ideas.

I'm not debating the term 'scout' either. Invent a rifle and call it whatever you want. Just don't describe it as general purpose when it is only fit for one purpose.

the only thing I'm debating is the claim that "There is no more effective general purpose rifle than a real Scout in the hands of a man who knows how to use it", which is just an absurd statement.

(Putting aside that it's a pound overweight), a SCAR is More compact, better balanced, more durable, more reliable, & more ergonomic than a light bolt action carbine? optimized for first shot effectiveness against large game animals? You, sir, speak in jest and should avail yourself of more time with a boltgun.

seriously? I've been competing in practical precision / field / sniper and F-class matches with a bolt gun for years and have several 1st place wins at major national matches, where we shoot small targets from 5 yards to 1400 yards, mostly from barricades with very little time. My 'go-to' bolt rifle is on its 6th barrel, and is only 4 years old. If you had a similar level of experience, we probably wouldn't be arguing. If my 'go-to rifle' since the 70s was still on its first barrel, I sure wouldn't be writing stuff like "Sayin' is one thing and doin' is another. Go forth, do, and report."


Since your responses have all been about me or the word scout, I'm done here. If you decide to attempt to defend the configuration or its fit for purpose, let me know. but i did enjoy seeing the pics in the OP and reading part of the history

 

[200Apples]

.
[Edit: this post was composed about a half-hour before I posted it. I mean to single out no one.]

Why does the "Scout Rifle" cause agitation in some people?

Because the term might mean to them, "unorthodox configuration" and it scares them. Who knows.

Now, in order to avoid the "lively" discussion people are having in this thread perhaps Willie might have titled it using kid gloves... but he didn't and he has kept his composure in his replies to the detractors throughout. Regardless, the thread has been educational.

Even before Mr. Sutton conjured images of old western scouts, that was the image my mind's eye had when daydreaming about the subject. Images, too, perhaps from the the post-WWII era of the outdoorsman and what it was like to live off the land. That's where my fancy goes when I think about a "scout rifle" and the subject still fascinates.

Being that it's 2014, the appeal for using such a light, handy powerful rifle CONCEPT remains because it's a hot rod and I love high-performance machinery. And dangit! had I been this well-educated on the subject a few months ealier, this might have been the rifle I purchased instead of the RGS.

The Ruger Hawkeye Compact



4 round capacity, 16.5" barrel (blued), 35.5" overall length, 5.75 lbs. ...before scoping it with a forward-mounted telescope. This is what Ruger could have used (granted, it's the same action and same barrel-length [as the blued scout].

What this whole gufaffle may boil down to is: Does the Cooper concept interest you? Yes or no.

Jeff Cooper

The new-wave rifle is neither more powerful nor intrinsically more accurate than the rifles of the past, but it is much, much handier, shorter, lighter and quicker to operate. The current guideline is a length limit of one meter and a weight limit of three kilos. (This weight is measured with all accessories in place but with the weapon unloaded.) Immediately these limitations point us toward short actions, short barrels, compact sights, and synthetic stocks. A further feature which distinguishes the modern scout rifle from its predecessors is the telescope sight, but that in a certain particular mode. The modern scout uses a low-power telescope mounted just forward of the magazine well...

 

[Willie Sutton]

"I was very interested to hear the group explored the Krag action. I love my Krag Not-Scout. If only those damned Norwegians had designed a stronger bolt...."


Precisely. The Krag was one of the rifles that was so.. right... for so many reasons for adaptation to a Scout. Magazine cutoff, abilty to be topped off in the easiest way imaginable, smooth bolt.. the works. The side loading feature was universally well liked. I had a cut down rifle that had been made into a carbine that we shot and studied. I liked enough that I had a personal deer rifle made from it, with a full length Manlicher stock, ghost ring rear sight, and three flush mounted Pachmeyer sling studs for a Ching Sling. Obviously I drew portions of the Scout into this rifle, which is another keystone in my rack. I'll drag it out for photos later. "If only" it had been suitable for .308... if only... <sigh>...

The "I have a car" comment is interesting, and assumes that we drive home after each day or three out hunting. In my "big years" of hunting I traveled around from Florida to Canada and west to Colorado and up to Alaska in my Cessna 310, limited in weight capacity, and always packed with camping and hunting gear to the gills. I would go out on a six month trip, hunting and shooting in a wide range of environments and for a wide range of game. One handgun, one rifle. The Scout did exactly what it was designed to do, and that was to be a reasonable compromise when it was not the perfect tool, noting that very very often it was not a compromise at all. Yeah, shooting Prarie Dogs wasn't it's forte but then again... well, it stiff connected with plenty and we enjoyed much amusement doing so.

The Scout never had any military use seriously envisioned, no matter how articulate the attempt to use what I've written to say otherwise. It was and is a modern version of a foragers and woodsmans rifle, great at some things, adequate at others, and very rarely inadequate at anything. Cooper, like most of us, were and are hunters, not soldiers. The concept was optimized to suit us. The mission was what we wanted, and we wanted a generally universal rifle for uses exactly like my 6 month Cessna-Safari's. I dunno what else to say.

"I wasn't "there", but I was out here, along with many others, reading what the Col. wrote about his concept of the Scout rifle. The idea I got was not mid 1800s, but mid to late 1700s. As I read, lurking between the lines he wrote were the Minutemen. and the type of rifle they had—a personally owned, rifle, generally suited for hunting most types of game, but with military usefulness if circumstances necessitated such use. I never got the idea that Cooper envisioned civilians in anything other than a guerrilla role, like the Minutemen, sniping from cover, hitting and running. And his idea of the Scout rifle was what he thought was the kind of hunting rifle best suited to that role."

I can't really disagree with anything in this well written post other than to say that while suitable for the "Minuteman Role", as described above, it was never *seriously* thought to be anything other than paying some homage to that concept. Of course we all have this shadow of the ultimate use of our RKBA hovering over us, as it's part of our culture. Heck, I still have our family musket famously used by great-great-great grandpappy to shoot a redcoat at the Battle of Brandywine. With all of that recognized, we certainly were not building a rifle optimized for civil conflict, but certainly a rifle built as a Scout would be useful in that role as well. Hunting deer and hunting men in assymetric warfare look suspiciously the same when viewed clinically. There will always be a fair overlap in the tools selected for either.



Art, I bet that little Sako is a dream to shoot. Lovely things. Several were built into "Honest Scouts" with huge success.



Please smile as you read the following. It's truly intended in the spirit of getting a smile, OK?

Trust me? Humor mode engaged?


I've been competing in practical precision / field / sniper and F-class matches....

<yawns... lymbic system active... stretches... blood pressure rises... man contemplates beating chest>.. It's... coming... out.... Oh NO!! I must... suppress monkey... brain... response..... OK...... trying... Damn it, I hate it when this happens.... (sigh)... must it always end in violence?

Oh NO! It's happened... the inevitable "my chest beating is more manly than yours" moment in all debates...

<Enter chest-beating Monkey Brain mode for ten seconds>.

Youngster, I was shooting IPSC when Cooper had hair and we shot from concealment under sports-coats. I've been engaged in playing the adversary in air-to-air combat excercises flying real Russian MiGs for decades and can use a NR-23 or NS-37mm automatic cannon in a MiG to shred a towed target dart any day of the week. Know what? Neither those things nor shooting your target-range competitions has diddly squat to do with the concept of actually using the utility of a Scout Rifle as a practical field rifle for general purpose hunting of live animals in the 200 kilo class, so let's keep the chest beating to a minimum, preferably zero. Deal?

<monkey brain mode off, re-enter genteel diplomatic debate mode now>

It's not a contest in chest beating. Please don't make it one. I can't hit squat at 1400 yards. You're apparently not a hunter. Let's appreciate each others expertise.


"Why does the "Scout Rifle" cause agitation in some people?"

For some it's probably insecurity (no matter what side you take). For me, it's just rejection of simple misuse of the term. It's like calling a Springfield 03 a Mauser (and yes, I *know* that a Springfield is a Mauser derivitive). Look: I love all sorts of good firearms, not supposing any particular category to be "superior" to others. I posess English and German double rifles, love my Krag, have a definitive collection of AK's, over 100 Mauser 98's, a reasonable collection (about 30) of semi-auto military battle rifles built between 1935 and 1965, a sub-collection of military sniper rifles from 1940 to 1960, AR's & SIGS out the kazoo, fine sporting rifles by the dozen, as well as about 50 Cap & Ball pistols which I shoot with glee.

I appreciate ALL good firearms design. I just don't call a revolver a pistol, a Springfield a Mauser, or a magazine a clip. Neither do I diminish the term "Scout" by applying it to things that are not. Perhaps it's pride in having played a small part in it's development, and the desire to preserve its heritage.


I hope I've made you think. And laugh a bit. I hate it when the monkey rises in the throat...


Willie

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[Jim Watson]

Like Will Rogers, all I know is what I read in the newspaper; uh, Guns & Ammo.
I read a lot about the Scout Rifle, among other things.

I seem to recall Col Cooper showing an interest in detachable magazines, with a spare in a well in the buttstock, as seen on that pistol gripped oddity here and some Steyrs even predating their Scout. No doubt a flush detachable magazine could be devised for the Ruger in question, and a receptacle carved to carry an extra one for an easy reload.

There was a Remington Model 7 with Scout Scope that circulated the stores around here for a while until it finally ended up with somebody who could really use it. It lacked the rest of the Scout suite of features but was still a handy little rifle. No heavier than a typical lever action, but a good deal more accurate and powerful.

A close look at that magazine cover finds a laminated stock on the 600 with Scout Scope. That makes it a 600 Magnum and therefore in the lineage of the Lion Scout.

I doubt the Good Colonel would consider the .30 Commie Short suitable for much of anything, especially not his signature long gun. After all, he promoted the .30-30 lever action as superior to the AK for civil self defense.

The US Krag Jorgensen was the last rifle I recall reading Cooper on. If he had any thought of cutting his up to make a Scout out of it, I do not remember reading of it.

 

[Sam1911]

Perhaps it's pride in having played a small part in it's development, and the desire to preserve its heritage.

That right there, is worth a mint. That's the whole shebang, and it is quite a wonderful thing to discuss.

And it is a shame that the discussion seemingly inevitably has to devolve into whether Cooper, et. al, were precisely, universally RIGHT in what they thought and assumed, and attempted so many years ago. We should be able to appreciate the historic first-person testimony without necessarily arguing that the marketplace of ideas should have favored it more highly over the passage of many more decades.

If the answer really is that, "if it deviates one iota from the list of features then is ISN'T a 'Scout,'" then so be it. There were then very few made, very few understood, and the idea didn't prove itself to enough shooters (knowledgeable or not) to ever put it in high demand.

And Ruger's GSR isn't a Scout. Again, that's fine-- in fact, I think that's written in the first paragraph of almost every write-up of the GSR I've ever seen. Everyone knows its just marketing. Marketers are extremely stingy with the truth. So be it.

We should strive to be more careful with our own terminology, if for no other reason than out of respect for the deceased.

I've been competing in practical precision / field / sniper and F-class matches with a bolt gun for years and have several 1st place wins at major national matches, where we shoot small targets from 5 yards to 1400 yards, mostly from barricades with very little time. My 'go-to' bolt rifle is on its 6th barrel, and is only 4 years old. If you had a similar level of experience, we probably wouldn't be arguing. If my 'go-to rifle' since the 70s was still on its first barrel, I sure wouldn't be writing stuff like "Sayin' is one thing and doin' is another. Go forth, do, and report."

And this is really the beauty of a place like THR. Though occasionally the discussion gets a bit awkward, , two subject matter experts can bring their extremely different experience sets to bear on in the same discussion, and both have vitally important things to say about it -- even when they disagree. I'll wager taliv knows more now about the history of the Gunsite Scout conferences than he did, and I'll bet Willie can appreciate that a rigorously experienced MODERN rifleman like taliv sees from a hilltop that perhaps wasn't reachable to those conference attendees almost a half-century back.

Really pretty cool stuff. Thanks to you both!

 

[Willie Sutton]

"I'll bet Willie can appreciate that a rigorously experienced MODERN rifleman like taliv sees from a hilltop that perhaps wasn't reachable to those conference attendees almost a half-century back."


Have had the recent pleasure of being a guest at Fort Irwin after being asked to do some Red-Air support there, and got to play with some of the toys there and watch the pros shoot waaay away.... yonder.....

My answer is "You betcha".


Willie

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[taliv]

Youngster, I was shooting IPSC when Cooper had hair and we shot from concealment under sports-coats. I've been engaged in playing the adversary in air-to-air combat excercises flying real Russian MiGs for decades. Know what? Neither those things nor shooting your target-range competitions has diddly squat to do with the concept of actually using the utility of a Scout Rifle as a practical field rifle for general purpose hunting of live animals in the 200 kilo class, so let's keep the chest beating to a minimum, preferably zero. Deal?

Who is chest beating? You are the one who called out my experience, so I gave it. You said "You, sir, speak in jest and should avail yourself of more time with a boltgun." So I very briefly described my time with a boltgun.

If you are elderly or invalid, I would be happy to share some links to youtube videos of these competitions so you can see how relevant they are. Otherwise I would encourage you to at least spectate at one so you can have a more informed opinion.

 

[RPRNY]

Willie,

I would love to see pictures of that Krag of yours sometime if you have a moment. It sounds most excellent. I'm a big fan of the Krag despite its limitations and a huge fan of the 30-40 cartridge which, in a Ruger no 3 can be happily loaded to 308 levels. 180 grs with an MPBR of 270 yards is a very useful cartridge indeed. If I win the lottery, I am going to start a company building a modern Krag design (at substantial loss I realize) that will handle the 30-40 at 308 levels. It will be my white elephant and I will revel in arguing its superiority in any number of roles with all comers ;-) I promise however not to call it a Scout. Maybe the Krag Skirmisher...

 

[Willie Sutton]

"I very briefly described my time with a boltgun."

A specialized hunting rifle is the subject. I don't see much hunting being done in those shooting games ya'll fancy. You suggested that a SCAR would be handier for the hunting I described, and I don't see that as so. Now why can't you hunt Moose in Canada with a SCAR or deer in Pennsylvania? Hint.. it's illegal. There are practical aspects to most things, and thinking that a SCAR is a better all around general purpose rifle *within the paradigm specified*, which is a hunting paradigm (a fact that you were/are apparently poorly informed about, having fallen into a common trap of thinking of the Scout Rifle in military/tactical/ terms) is just plain foolish. I pointed that out and suggested that you go do a 15 state hunt and see how that SCAR works for you. It wouldn't, and that's the point.



"I would encourage you to at least spectate at one so you can have a more informed opinion"

I'm simply not interested, and it's not relevent to my study. If i want to see military type shooting from contact range to infinity, I'll go visit (and shoot with) my friends at Fort Irwin again. I'll pass on watching civilian "war game competitions", thanks for the invite though. I get enough war games play at work, where I am involved with them professionally at the highest level possible. I'm paid pretty well to saddle-up and fly Russian fighters over 200 hours a year in fact, so I'm doing pretty good for an old guy...

I shoot pretty well too. Was trained in the .45 by a former Marine named Cooper, way back in the Jurassic. Punched my share of paper in IPSC competition too, until the rules got silly and it stopped being a practical way to study and perfect methods of real world self defensive technique. At one time I was shooting 10,000 rounds a year from a .45 Colt. Just sayin'.... more than one guy has been to the range. In any event, don't get your temper up. Nobody is taking away your toys and giving you a Scout Rifle to suffer under.

If I win the lottery, I am going to start a company building a modern Krag design

You figure out how to shoot real .308 in one and I'll be the first to your door. I do love the .30-40, and my little carbine especially. I'll drag it out when I can for some pics. Mebbe it'll need a new home one day, and there are darned few who appreciate these like they deserve to be appreciated.



Willie

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[taliv]

A specialized hunting rifle is the subject.

At least we made some progress today, though we sure took the scenic route

Btw most competitions have some stages that are not based on military style engagements. Many have hunting specific engagements. I have several life sized steel pig and coyote targets. Prairie dog silhouette are popular too. Though we consider all of these relatively enormous and would only put them in matches at longer distances or otherwise make the shot challenging by awkward positions, lack of time and unknown distance.

 

[armoredman]

This has been interesting. I am very happy to hear from someone who actually knew Col. Cooper, and was an active part of his life, kind of like when my stepfather talked of meeting General Patton when the Third Army was racing for Bastogne. Well, OK, not QUITE as neat as that, but still
I realize my own contribution is much remarked upon,

Armoredman, that's a very nice rifle. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it's a beauty. The second mag in the stock is a nice addition. Lose the pistol grip and add a scope and you would be onto something. Why? You've likely doubled the time needed to cycle the bolt compared to the correct method. There's no way to use the "salute-flick" bolt cycle that puts a second shot on target in less than a second, as done by trained riflemen using a conventionally stocked boltgun, who never unshoulder the rifle and never lose sight picture. This is what we end up with when measured performance in the hands of experts is not part of the design of rifles. So, beautiful rifle, but it's going to be very slow against the stopwatch.

Ain't it just, though? Nobody else is quite sure what to call it, either. What's funny is the number of people who try it out and exclaim that it is extremely easy to use. I don't worry about the bolt guns "fast second shot" trick - so far the only thing it has hunted is a steel target. My own shooting history is far less than many here, only starting back in the late 70s. I was never into bolt action rifles until I met this little CZ, and just been having a ball with it. It took years to realize accurate rifles really ARE more interesting.

I seem to recall Col Cooper showing an interest in detachable magazines, with a spare in a well in the butt stock, as seen on that pistol gripped oddity...

Thanks, Jim. The weird thing is how well it works for me, and the stock designer suggested the grip - I was going to go with just a spare mag in the stock. BTW, I've had scopes on it before, and I haven't found a scope that will let me acquire a target as easily as I can with irons.

Back to the original discussion - I think the Scout rifle is what it means to be, light practical field rifle. I can't ascribe any great insight, as 1), I wasn't there, or even born yet for that matter, I think, and 2) I have VERY little time behind a bolt action rifle, other than my 527, some Mosins, an odd Enfield or two, and the Springfield 1903A3s in JROTC and ROTC. Heck, I didn't even start HUNTING until after I hit age 44! Couldn't find anyone to teach me how until recently. So I just look at the rifle shown as the original Scout and say, yep, I'd take that into the field. Whether or not I could DO anything with it or not is another story.

Keep on keeping on, sir, and thank you again for bringing that wonderful piece of history out for us to see.

 

[Nom de Forum]

The Scout never had any military use seriously envisioned, no matter how articulate the attempt to use what I've written to say otherwise. It was and is a modern version of a foragers and woodsmans rifle, great at some things, adequate at others, and very rarely inadequate at anything. Cooper, like most of us, were and are hunters, not soldiers. The concept was optimized to suit us. The mission was what we wanted, and we wanted a generally universal rifle for uses exactly like my 6 month Cessna-Safari's. I dunno what else to say.
.

You are right Cooper was not a soldier, he was a Marine and never stopped thinking like one. His Firearms career has very little to do with hunting. He was not much of a hunter in comparison to self-defense tactics instructor. It stretches the bounds of credibility for you to still insist that a rifle conceived by Cooper, with input from others, that is chambered in 7.62x51 with the capability to be loaded by stripper clip "never had any military use seriously envisioned". Civilians using their "general purpose" forager/woodsman rifles as partisan fighters against foreign invaders and domestic tyrants was the type of military use definitely on Cooper's mind. Who purposely designs a new hunting rifle to use stripper clips?

 

[JRH6856]

armoredman, I wouldn't worry about the fast second shot. After all, it is not a part of the Honest Scout rifle spec:

"a general-purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target."

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ This, 10X


"It stretches the bounds of credibility for you to still insist that a rifle conceived by Cooper, with input from others, that is chambered in 7.62x51 with the capability to be loaded by stripper clip "never had any military use seriously envisioned".

I was there. You were not. You suppose. I know. Upon these facts I rest this sub-debate.


"He was not much of a hunter in comparison to self-defense tactics instructor."

He was a polymath, and although his hunting came second to his self defense tactics instruction, he was a capable and skilled hunter. He was also a pretty good sports car driver, had an academic background in history, a photographic memory, appreciated lyric poetry, and rode a mean 4 wheeler. Being expert at one thing need not diminish expertise in other things. Note also again another error in your logic: He didn't know everything, but he was smart enough to surround himself with people who were dedicated experts in areas of knowlage that intertwined with his. This is why there were Scout Rifle Conferences, to bring together experts in a variety of areas of riflery in a synergy that has not been duplicated since. Think about simple production of what the end product was supposed to be: He was not a tool and diemaker, but we had several in attendance to stand up and say "yeah, that's a great idea... try building it", upon which discussion would devolve to that for a while and then proceed on to other thoughts. Being a good instructor in anything means also being a good student. Cooper was just as good a student as he was a teacher. He was confident in himself, yet not arrogant. Easy with a smile and a joke, self depreciating, unwavering in his expectation of excellence, and loyal to those in his tribe. Those attributes are ones to admire.


++++++++++++++


"If you are elderly or invalid, I would be happy to share some links to youtube videos"

If you think you can cut it, bring your pink-ass, a flightsuit, and two gloves to the base sometime and I'll bring you out in a fighter and show you how we old invalids do things, make a Youtube video of you passing out, and then we can post it right up for all your friends to see. Two gloves give you an opportunity to puke twice before anyone notices: Peel 'em off and have at it. Suggestion? Banannas: They taste the same coming up as going down. You want to feel good during your intermittant periods of conciousness...

"Eldery or Invalid..." Kids these days.


"A specialized hunting rifle is the subject"

At least we made some progress today, though we sure took the scenic route


You made progress in your education, young cricket. Kicking and screaming, to be sure.

The old geriatric and feeble Scout Rifle Conferees knew this all along....


Seriously:

This disconnect has been the source of most of the misunderstanding of the Scout in recent times, and as I have said many times, the truly unfortunate choice of the name "Scout" with its general military associations has not helped. It's resulted in inappropriate rifles being built and sold, and inappropriate comparisons being made. It's perverted the essential rightness of the design when used as intended in the role for which it was developed. Were off the shelf "Honest Scouts" available today, they would sell to a far wider range of buyers than the Abortion Scouts that we are confronted with. The funny thing is that they are so stupidly simple to build that it's almost laughable. As Armoredman points out, take a Ruger Hawkeye, stick on a scope, add a third swivel, and you have a far better Scout than the RAS (Ruger Abortion Scout) for far less money.



+++++++++++++++++

"Who purposely designs a new hunting rifle to use stripper clips?"

To stripper clips, which many people have obsessed over the years: They were a "Cloud 9 dream" part of the list of things that a rifle "might" include. On a scale of 1-10 of desirable features, the desire for rapid charging of the magazine with frozen fingers, or from rounds extracted with gloves from a pocket, was rated about a 3. Stripper clips were actually a VERY low priority interest to most of us. The Krag's loading port system was rated higher, as it can be topped off with single rounds with sights maintained on a target and the action closed and able to be fired, unlike a stripper clip (open action) or box magazine (Try "shoot one, top off one using a box magazine compared to a Krag loading port.). In the end the Steyr got a box magazine, noting that it's a flush mounted one.

Ratings for loading system on a 1-10 scale for the role envisioned for the Scout:

Krag: 9

Box Magazine: 5

Stripper clips: 5

The entire stripper clip "thing" was dropped very early from the program.


++++++++++++

"Civilians using their "general purpose" forager/woodsman rifles as partisan fighters against foreign invaders and domestic tyrants was the type of military use definitely on Cooper's mind."

For which a Model 94 Winchester or Pappy's old Model 70 works just as well. As I said, any tool useful for slowly hunting animals works just as well for slowly hunting men... Assymetric warfare and hunting whitetail deer have a lot in common, as the Redcoats found out at a bridge in Massachusetts long ago.


+++++++++++++++++++++=

The end product envisioned has never been manufactured, even as a prototype. The rifle would have a number of things included that have never been found in one spot at a time, ever. The Steyr was not really what we envisioned, and in the end I think that Cooper realized that it was "this or nothing" within his lifetime. If anyone would like to hear what we wanted as the final end rifle, incorporating recent advances in latter years, I'll be delighted to continue.


Willie

.

 

[Nom de Forum]

^^ This, 10X


"It stretches the bounds of credibility for you to still insist that a rifle conceived by Cooper, with input from others, that is chambered in 7.62x51 with the capability to be loaded by stripper clip "never had any military use seriously envisioned".

I was there. You were not. You suppose. I know. Upon these facts I rest this sub-debate.


"He was not much of a hunter in comparison to self-defense tactics instructor."

He was a polymath, and although his hunting came second to his self defense tactics instruction, he was a capable and skilled hunter. He was also a pretty good sports car driver, had an academic background in history, a photographic memory, appreciated lyric poetry, and rode a mean 4 wheeler. Being expert at one thing need not diminish expertise in other things. Note also again another error in your logic: He didn't know everything, but he was smart enouigh to surround himself with people who were dedicated experts in areas of knowlage that intertwined with his. This is why there were Scout Rifle Conferences, to bring together experts in a variety of areas of riflery in a synergy that has not been duplicated since. Think about simple production of what the end product was supposed to be: He was not a tool and diemaker, but we had several in attendance to stand up and say "yeah, that's a great idea... try building it", upon which discussion would devolve to that for a while and then proceed on to other thoughts. Being a good instructor in anything means also being a good student. Cooper was just as good a student as he was a teacher. He was confident in himself, yet not arrogant. Easy with a smile and a joke, self depreciating, unwavering in his expectation of excellence, and loyal to those in his tribe. Those attributes are ones to admire.


++++++++++++++


"A specialized hunting rifle is the subject"

At least we made some progress today, though we sure took the scenic route


You made progress in your education, young cricket.

The old geriatric and feeble Scout Rifle Conferees knew this all along....


Seriously:

This disconnect has been the source of most of the misunderstanding of the Scout in recent times, and as I have said many times, the truly unfortunate choice of the name "Scout" with its general military associations has not helped. It's resulted in inappropriate rifles being built and sold, and inappropriate comparisons being made. It's perverted the essential rightness of the design when used as intended in the role for which it was developed. Were off the shelf "Honest Scouts" available today, they would sell to a far wider range of buyers than the Aportion Scouts that we are confronted with. The funny thing is that they are so stupidly simple to build that it's almost laughable. As Armoredman points out, take a Ruger Hawkeye, stick on a scope, add a third swivel, and you have a far better Scout than the RAS (Ruger Abortion Scout) for far less money.



+++++++++++++++++

To stripper clips, which many people have obsessed over the years: They were a "Cloud 9 dream" part of the list of things that a rifle "might" include. On a scale of 1-10 of desirable features, the desire for rapid charging of the magazine with frozen fingers, or from rounds extracted with gloves from a pocket, was rated about a 3. Stripper clips were actually a VERY low priority interest to most of us. The Krag's loading port system was rated higher, as it can be topped off with single rounds with sights maintained on a target and the action closed and able to be fired, unlike a stripper clip (open action) or box magazine (Try "shoot one, top off one using a box magazine compared to a Krag loading port.). In the end the Steyr got a box magazine, noting that it's a flush mounted one.

Ratings for loading system on a 1-10 scale for the role envisioned for the Scout:

Krag: 9

Box Magazine: 5

Stripper clips: 5

The entire stripper clip "thing" was dropped very early from the program.


++++++++++++

The end product envisioned has never been manufactured, even as a prototype. The rifle would have a number of things included that have never been found in one spot at a time, ever. The Steyr was not really what we envisioned, and in the end I think that Cooper realized that it was "this or nothing" within his lifetime. If anyone would like to hear what we wanted as the final end rifle, incorporating recent advances in latter years, I'll be delighted to continue.


Willie

.

Of course we would all like you to continue. How else are we going to thoroughly evaluate you recounting of history in comparison to what we have learned from Jeff Cooper's statements. I have no doubt you were there, but my recalling Cooper's comments is not the same as supposing. No serious student of history relies on the accuracy of one witness account of an event. Eye witnesses are well known to have widely varying degrees of accurate recall.

No doubt Cooper was a polymath. His less than full satisfaction with the Steyr was evident to anyone paying attention to the nuance of his comments about it. You are one of the few people (perhaps only person) who had personal experience with Cooper that I have spoken to or corresponded with that has denied that Cooper was not at least sometimes very arrogant. Despite that very human failing that we can all suffer from occasionally, he did indeed have many admirable qualities.

Willie you have posted many extraordinary comments about your life experiences and accomplishments in various threads. Now you are posting about a Rifle that has been controversial from inception. You should expect some of us to be applying close scrutiny to you and your comments to determine if embellishment and omission is occurring. As accomplished as you are in life you should not be surprised, defensive, or offended.

I am still smiling Willie.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"You are one of the few people (perhaps only person) who had personal experience with Cooper that I have spoken to or corresponded with that has denied that Cooper was not at least sometimes very arrogant"


I recognize the difference between earned self confidence, based on knowlage of ones own strengths and weaknesses, and tempered with honest assessment of self, and unearned arrogance. Simple self confidence, expressed in word and deed, can easially be mistaken for arrogance, when in fact it's just a simple recitation of the way things are.

Within ones own self, Arrogance a vice. Self confidence is a virtue. The two are inexorably intertwined.

The differences are not always obvious from the external view of others though. Tellingly, the less secure the observer, the more likley that observer is to ascribe arrogance to expert competence and it's associated confidence to others.

Cooper was secure in his own expertise, tolerated fools badly, tolerated lack of intelligence badly, had infinite curiousity, and knew his limits as well as anyone possibly can. What he projected as his ethos is probably about the same as I project in my area of professional expertise (which is not firearms, this is merely a hobby). It's hard to be *really* good in a world of mediocrity and not be noticed and criticized by those of lesser talent. If you become carried away reading your own press clippings, you can fall victim to hubris of your own making. In the end those who achieve great things also fail, since failure is the feedback loop telling us to change directions. It's easy to recite the failures of others, far too easy in fact, while ignoring the tapestry of life within which those failures must be measured. Jeff had plenty of failings, but I don't think that arrogance was one of those failings. I am sure that he never believed his own press: I sincerely think that he simply didn't care about the opinions of those who he dismissed out of the box as fools. The fool to equal ratio was definately balanced against the fools, but if you earned his respect it was given without reservation.

We see this all the time with fighter pilots. It's said that "any fighter pilot that doesn't think he's the best in the business is in the wrong business", and self confidence there can win the fight but arrogance will kill you so fast you never know it's happened. Knowing the difference is key, and it's a tightrope walk with an abyss on one side. The difference between unearned arrogance and earned confidence is in training, experience, and knowing your own limits. I earn my living teaching that exact subject, much to the dismay of some meeting me at the merge.


"You should expect some of us to be applying close scrutiny to you and your comments to determine if embellishment and omission is occurring. As accomplished as you are in life you should not be surprised, defensive, or offended"

You can't cause me offense at all, and logic and reasoning are the only defenses I ever use. Reminds me of this exchange between an old man and a young human resources manager where the old man was applying for a job:

Human Resources Manager: "What is your greatest weakness?"

Old Man : "Honesty."

Human Resources Manager: "I don't think honesty is a weakness."

Old Man : "I don't really give a **** what you think."


Really, I prefer to play the ball and not the man. The ball is a rifle design and concept, not the personal attributes of Jeff Cooper, or of you, or of me.


Willie

.

 

[200Apples]

.

The differences are not always obvious from the external view of others though. Tellingly, the less secure the observer, the more likley that observer is to ascribe arrogance to expert competence and it's associated confidence to others.

Well said, sir.

If I may yank on the steering wheel another time, I'd like to hear opinions, please, on the usefulness of the 7.62 X 39 vs the ...30-30. Granted, the two rounds posess similar velocities, muzzle energy and energy @ 200 yds, depending on bullet weight, with the 170 gr bullet in .30-30 having the edge.

But that's comparing to mil-grade X 39 w/ 39,000-ish p.s.i. pressures. Handloaded, the CZ 527 action is claimed to handle 50,000 psi loads. Then again, one could up the ante w/ a .30-30 custom load. I don't reload, yet.

I bring this up because somewhere in this thread someone said that Cooper didn't approve of the ".30 short Commie" in this case for use as a scout rifle cartridge...

 

[taliv]

I was there. You were not. You suppose. I know. Upon these facts I rest this sub-debate.

That would be great if you didn't have such a credibility issue. The way your story keeps changing makes it seems like you're exaggerating or just outright fabricating much of it.

You made progress in your education, young cricket. Kicking and screaming, to be sure.

The old geriatric and feeble Scout Rifle Conferees knew this all along....

for someone who knew this all along, you sure seem to have changed your tune in the past few days...

a general-purpose rifle

There is no more effective general purpose rifle than a real Scout

It was envisioned as a jack of all trades rifle, mainly for highly mobile hunting, for taking shots at fleeting game. Other possible uses were, naturally, contemplated by all, but in the main it's a general purpose hunting / plinking / guide type rifle, designed to be carried a lot, shot a little

it's a general purpose hunting rifle
(military use) comprises zero percent of the intended use of the "Honest Scout"

It was and is a modern version of a foragers and woodsmans rifle, great at some things, adequate at others, and very rarely inadequate at anything. Cooper, like most of us, were and are hunters, not soldiers.

A specialized hunting rifle is the subject.

why have you gone from "it can do everything", to "it can do most things", to "it can do 85% of North American game", to it's a "specialized hunting rifle"?

the obvious reason is you know you can't defend the indefensible. the configuration is not more than adequate for anything, and it's less than adequate for many things. So why even try? maybe if you invite someone to go fly with you, it will distract them from the inconsistencies in your story.

 

[Sam1911]

It looks like we've gone about as far as we can go and still retain some semblance of civility, and we've wandered quite a bit from the original idea of appreciating Willie's "snapshot in steel."

-fin-