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Gunstore Owner Defends Against Armed Intruders

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Good Ol' Boy, Mar 30, 2022.

  1. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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  2. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    That was interesting. The guy behind the desk was quick as a cat. I wonder if he knew the two bad guys and that a hit was coming? Good guy got off at least 7 shots. ***EDIT: 12 shot*** He did not have a good grip with his weak hand when he fired the first shot and I wouldn’t be surprised if he injured that hand. The bad guy that started the shooting missed at least twice from 3 yards, partly because his target ducked and moved and partly because his form sucked. That’s an ugly situation to be in and I can’t see what the store owner could have done better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
  3. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    After watching again, the good guy ran dry. Slide locked back and it was a good thing it was all over. It was hard to tell the exact number of times he shot but it was all he had.
     
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  4. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    Store owner did well.
    If he had only 5-6 rounds capacity it would have been deficient, but that is likely deemed inapplicable by some because they don't work in a store.
     
  5. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    Desk dude was extraordinarily well prepared; it's a rare IPSC or IDPA competitor who acquits himself that handily, and those targets aren't shooting back.

    He came very close to shooting his left hand, but he won an uphill gunfight anyway.
     
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  6. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    This was a remarkable display of calm composure by the man seated behind the desk.
    It also seems the coffee thermos may have been a factor and was hit multiple times.
    Criminals thankfully ran in "all crazy like" which provided employees another half-second of awareness.
     
  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    The citizen who has not taken realistic defensive training will likely be surprised by several aspects of the event:
    • How quickly the situation unfolded; that would also be expected in a parking lot or in your driveway. It necessitated very quick thinking, a decisive reaction, and a fast draw that pants pocket carry would likely not support. And had the defender's firearm not been in his holster, these fellows' geese would have been plucked, cleaned, and cooked.
    • The shooting speed necessitated by the fast-moving targets; it is not like what people practice in target shooting, and it takes practice to develop the ability.
    • The number of shots needed--and there were only two attackers.
    This happened in a retail establishment, where the door had to remain unlocked. The way it happened reminds us that keeping our doors locked during the day at home might be a very good idea.
     
  8. starnbar

    starnbar Member

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    That looked like a hit the owner and his partner were very lucky.
     
  9. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Administrator Staff Member

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    I count at least eleven shots from the guy behind the desk.

    I'm very impressed with his response.

    1. As he draws, he moves/ducks to one side enough to cause a miss by the guy who ran into the store but while still managing to return accurate fire.
    2. He immediately identifies the accomplice as a threat and instantly transitions to shooting at him when the primary attacker goes down.

    Found another source that indicates he was shot in the arm during the exchange but you can't tell it from his shooting. It does look like he grabs his right shoulder after his gun runs dry.

    https://www.newswars.com/incredible...hoot-two-armed-robbers-before-they-shoot-him/

    I don't know how he could have done any better. Which is great because I think if he hadn't been so very nearly perfect in his response he and the guy talking with him would almost certainly be dead.
     
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  10. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    My gut feeling on the whole situation, it was a hit and the store owner had a good idea that it was coming. The two dummies did a terrible job and the good guy did a great job. Not to take anything away from the good guy but had the hit men not been totally stupid, the good guy would have dead meat. I believe the first bad guy gave away what was coming and the good guy picked up on the clues. Unfortunately this is a good training video for the mob on how not to be hit men.
     
  11. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    Bad guys always have the initiative. Defenders are always reacting. This is core to our laws, and our social contract with each other.

    A teacher demonstrated how this relationship affects a defender's response time.

    He had me point a finger gun at his head. My job was to say "Bang!" when I saw him raise his finger gun from his side and "fire" at me.

    I knew his "attack" was coming. I was watching his hands carefully. Yet, every time, because he had the initiative, he could raise his finger gun and "fire" at me before I could see his hands move, process what I saw, and decide to say "Bang!"

    Try this with a friend. You'll experience "initiative deficit" firsthand.

    Lessons:

    1) No amount of "situational awareness" can overcome this "initiative deficit."

    2) Initiative deficit is one reason why cops are trained to exert "control" (to maintain the initiative) as much as possible. (Soldiers and fighter pilots, too). And why domestic violence calls (where this is difficult) are so dangerous for them.

    3) Defenders practice hard to get from a "Go!" decision to an on-target "Bang" as quickly as possible. So that when an attacker yields the initiative, even for just an instant, the defender can overcome his ever-present initiative deficit and prevail in an armed attack.

    Watch an example of this principle here:



    4) The initiative deficit, combined with time to first shot, is the basis for Tueller's so-called "21-foot rule".

    5) Simulators, videos, and real field experience help defenders get from observed bad guy behavior to a "GO!" decision more quickly, but cannot eliminate the advantage of having the initiative.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
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  12. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Random Guy

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    So much for NEVER draw on a drawn gun.

    “Never” is a big word that gets thrown around a lot.
     
  13. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I am guessing that we are missing some critical audio from the attack that might provide insightful for how the events went down. Sure enough, in reading JohnKSa's link, the robber's "gave a voice" (announced) of the robbery. I assume it was the 2nd robber that did so.
    According to police, two thieves arrived at the establishment and gave a voice of robbery, but the owner reacted.

    That is one of the problems of absolutist statements as there are undoubtedly going to be exceptions. The statement should be to "Never draw on a drawn gun when it isn't prudent/timely/etc." There are times when drawing on a drawn gun are bad. There are times when drawing on a drawn gun are necessary. There are times when drawing on a drawn gun is done or can be done because the gunman is otherwise distracted. There are times when doing so are NOT prudent as well. It is a very situational issue.
     
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