Primary Carbine At Tac-Pro Shooting Center

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Bartholomew,

A fellow THR member and I are looking to enroll in a beginning carbine course come October '05.

Your observations give me more insight into what we'll be looking forward to.

You mentioned Slip2000 in your dialogue.

I have been inadvertently changing between Slip2000 and FP-10 in my clean/lube regiment for most of my M4gery upper's life.

Needless to say, I was a bit surprised to read that the Slip2000 "burnt up" during a ~400rd count. With that being said, did you relube periodically throughout the rest of the course? For example, between ~400rd intervals?

Thanks in advance,
-Jim

BTW, I agree with you wholeheartedly about "figure out your gear prior to class".
We've been labeling and keeping tabs of magazines to see which ones work.

Holdover and all that jazz have already been considered and taken into account.
 
This is pretty timely for me, as I'm about to take a carbine class from Steve Moses. I think he used to do instruction out there. I'm trying to decide if a couple of kydex belt holders for the AR mags, a Hellcat, or a full-up vest (MESA) is the way to go for the class. I'm leaning towards the Hellcat, since 2 AR mags and 3 pistol mags make for a lot of bat-gear on just a belt. The vest might be overkill, but it has a hydro carrier.

For the class I took, the chest-rig was overkill. I went out of my way to have my mags and gear in good working order before the class began so that I could get in the maximum amount of shooting. Unfortunately, you can only move at the pace of the slowest and least-equipped class member most of the time. Having 19 loaded mags with 9 on you (+2 pistol mags) does little good if everyone else can only carry four mags. It does insure you won't be the guy holding everyone else up though.

I liked the chest rig a lot and it would be my top choice out of the other rigs I saw in that class (and in fact, several people in the class were in the shop buying MOLLE-based rigs by the end of the class); but it wasn't necessary for the class. I think a Hellcat would be a decent rig if you like the internal mag pouches. I would definitely recommend a collared shirt (keeps the straps off your neck) and I would recommend using the hydro carrier if for no other reason than to balance out the weight. My back started to get pretty sore from having about 20lbs of chest rig hanging up front and high off the belt.

You can get by without the Hellcat if the budget doesn't allow it; but it is a nice and useful piece of gear that leaves plenty of room to expand and mod in the future. As for the MESA vest, it will certainly get the job done. I haven't used the MESA but based on my chest rig experience I would guess it would get a little hotter. That is mainly a personal preference thing though. The chest rig did build up heat between the torso and the nylon; but I had it rigged fairly snug (snug enough that I used the interior of the chest rig as extra stuff space for empty mags after the SAW pouch filled up on one drill).

I couldn't find the BT holster on their website.

It is their Tactical Chest Rig. Unless you want to mount crossdraw on a Hellcat bib, I wouldn't bother with the Bladetech product. The Blackhawk SERPA stuff mounts better and has more options at a cheaper price (though the Bladetech holster is a bit nicer). I only went with Bladetech because they would do a Hi-Power holster for me when nobody else would.

Needless to say, I was a bit surprised to read that the Slip2000 "burnt up" during a ~400rd count. With that being said, did you relube periodically throughout the rest of the course? For example, between ~400rd intervals?

Well to be absolutely precise, it was clear by 400rds that there was not enough lube on the bolt carrier to allow it to function correctly. Just cycling the action by hand, you could feel the difference. I'm not 100% on what the cause of that was; but the same rifle had gone 800rds with no problems using Breakfree CLP.

I did relube periodically throughout the rest of the course - once during the second day after the problem initially appeared and a quick shot to the bolt carrier rails and bolt right before a heavy firing drill on the third day. Since I only went about 900rds for all three days, that and the cleaning at the end of the second day was enough to keep it running using SLIP 2000 Gun Lubricant.

The SLIP 2000 Gun Lube did make cleaning easy at the end of the day; but 400rds is way to early to choke up in my view. I'm going to try applying it a little heavier than I do Breakfree and see if that changes anything.
 
You can get by without the Hellcat if the budget doesn't allow it; but it is a nice and useful piece of gear that leaves plenty of room to expand and mod in the future.
I already have the 3 rigs I mentioned. The only one I don't have squared away is the belt rig. The Hellcat and MESA vest have seen a fair amount of use.
 
Bartholomew,

Gotcha.

The SLIP 2000 Gun Lube did make cleaning easy at the end of the day; but 400rds is way to early to choke up in my view. I'm going to try applying it a little heavier than I do Breakfree and see if that changes anything.

I agree with you, ~400rds is too soon to dry up, unless you folks were putting your carbines through some serious paces.

I'm also in the same conondrum as TechBrute as I'm in the midst of trying to figure out my first/second line gear.

Right now, the Tactical Tailor MAV goes wherever the carbine goes and it does get used when I practice, both live and dry fire. This pretty much means that the chest rig resides in the same case as the carbine. However, I've been contemplating the purchase of Safariland or Blade-Tech magazine pouches. AR-15 magazines along with spare pistol magazines and a dump pouch seems to be a lot of "kit" for a belt.

-Jim
 
A lot of gear issues are personal preference; but my personal belief is that the chest rigs and vests are vastly superior to the belt rigs in almost every way. Ease of wear, amount of equipment, modularity, weight distribution, value - pretty much the chest rigs and vests win on all these counts. About the only place I find belt rigs superior is in cooling.

If you decide to go the belt rig route, you'll absolutely need a quality rigger's belt like the Wilderness Instructor Belt or Blackhawk belt. Your regular JCPenney's belt will absolutely not suffice and many purpose-built gunbelts won't hack it either. 4 AR mags + 2 pistol mags + pistol + dump pouch will make most belts sag pretty badly and you'll end up bearing a lot of weight on the side of each hip.

If I already owned a Hellcat, MESA or MAV there is no way I would consider running a belt rig for a class. I see the belt rig as mostly a budget option and with gear like the Eagle Universal Chest Harness out, it really doesn't even make a good budget solution anymore.

I think the main reason vests and chest rigs don't catch on more is because people are self-conscious about looking too "Rambo-like". I predict they will catch on though because they offer a competitive advantage and they make training easier. They also let you train more in the same amount of time by minimizing the administrative time you spend recovering mags, reloading pouches, etc.
 
As far as budgetary concerns, I don't think that the belt rigs are any cheaper than the chest rigs, as you pointed out.

Wilderness belt - $40
2 Comp-tac AR15 mag holders - $70
Total - $110

SOTech Hellcat MKI - $105

The first rig only holds 2 mags, the second rig holds 6!

You are spot on with the self-concious comment. I showed up to a carbine class with TJ, and I brought the chest rig. No-one else had any gear at all (some didn't even have slings and others had USGI slings), and I decided to go without the rig so that I didn't stand out. Well, I really think I would have gotten more out of it if I wasn't distracted by trying to figure out which pocket I had jammed my extra mag(s) into. Sigh...

After that, I bought 2 Comp-tac mag holders. Haven't used them yet, and since their default width is only 1.5", I had to send them back and have them remade to fit my Wilderness Belt.

The good news is that this class I'm taking at the end of the month is with 3 fellow High Roaders that I know pretty well. They already think I'm over the top, anyway, so the chest rig won't bother them. :D
 
Hey, thanks for your two cents. They're greatly appreciated.

The belt issue has already been addressed with my CR Speed.

As far as being self-conscious of what others think of me, I'm not too worried. I'm going to have fun and learn.

I've already impressed my fiance many many moons ago so no need for the smell-good or nice hair, especially for a bunch of dudes.

My friend is letting me use his Safariland belt pouches this weekend, so I'll more than likely make up my mind about the first/second line gear at that time.

Thanks again,
Jim
 
A totally off the wall question. How much hotter does the chest rig make you feel? I haven't had the chance to take a carbine class (yet) but usually they are in the heat of summer which in NC means highs in the 90's and humidity the same. I was just wondering how much cooling air it blocks.
 
A totally off the wall question. How much hotter does the chest rig make you feel?

Well, it is pretty subjective. It was warm enough that when it was still chilly in the morning with a short sleeve shirt on, the chest rig made it just comfortable enough to bear it. Temperature was in the high 50s-low 60s for this.

At the high end temperatures I have used it at (80-85F) the body parts covered by the rig would sweat; but not enough to soak through the shirt I was wearing. Just a light sweat.

Humidity was probably in the 30-40% range for most of my use.
 
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