Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I just finished Primary Carbine at Tac-Pro Shooting Center near Mingus, TX with Bill Davison instructing. I am going to do my best to relate a "just the facts" observation of what I saw and learned.
First, the shooters and their gear:
Shooter 1:
Bushmaster 16" 1/9 HBAR A3 w/y-comp. Optics were NCStar clone of OKO red dot with factory mount. Didn't catch what the secondary weapon was. LBE was USGI LBV. Rifle had around 5,000 rounds on it prior to class.
Shooter 2:
Rock River lower w/ JARD single stage trigger and POF gas-piston upper. Optics were TA31F ACOG in TA51 mount. Secondary was Glock 9mm. LBE was older Blackhawk vest. Rifle had ~30 rounds on it prior to class.
Shooter 3:
Bushmaster/parts gun built by owner. 16" 1/9 M4 barrel. Optic was Aimpoint Comp M2 in GG&G mount. Secondary was Glock 9mm. LBE was combo of belt pouches, pockets and Blackhawk SAW pouch. Rifle had less than 100 rounds on it.
Shooter 4:
Colt Match Target HBAR 20" 1/7 A2. No optics. Secondary was Glock 9mm. LBE was pockets and belt holster/pistol mag pouches. Owner had never fired rifle previously.
Shooter 5:
Bushmaster/parts gun. 16" 1/9 HBAR barrel. Optic was TA11 ACOG. Secondary was Browning Hi-Power. LBE was Blackhawk Commando Recon (Rhodesian) chest rig. Rifle had 7,800 rounds on it.
Shooter 6:
Armalite M15A4 16" 1/9 HBAR. Optic was Leupold 1-4x shotgun scope. Secondary was Glock 34. LBE was shooter's vest, SOTech drop leg and pockets. Rifle had ~1,500 rounds on it.
Day 1
Most of morning and afternoon spent in class. We cover role of carbine, wound ballistics, maintenance, pluses and minuses of AR15 system. Instructor is not a fan of AR15 system, though unlike most critics has a considerable base of experience (including multiple tests to destruction) with the system. Instructor also evaluates LBE and other gear to assure it meets safety criteria. Slings are evaluated based on whether they allow you to tuck the rifle under weakside arm, will not allow gun to be pointed back at user while attached to sling, and whether sling can be used as a choke. All slings pass (GI Nylon, Specter Gear MOUT, Blackhawk SWIFT, and improvised single points that attach at stock). Finally we begin to zero and the problems start:
Shooter 4 notes that the instructor's zero is different from Colt zero. In order to teach the point effectively, instructor has students zero according to Colt 25m zero procedure (Shooter 5 declines). All students are 7-9" high at 100yds and almost off the 12x12 paper at 300yds, except for me (S5) as I already had my zero at those ranges. In addition, we experience the following problems:
Shooter 1 - NCstar clone gets removed within first few initial zeroing shots. S1 reports NCstar would not hold zero and was loose on factory mount. Carry handle is installed.
Shooter 2 - JARD trigger has 3 light primer strikes that fail to fire. Minor trouble zeroing irons (fixed detachable front and Troy rear) due to higher rail on POF system.
Shooter 3 - Can't see target at all at 300yds due to 4MOA dot. Some trouble with consistent groups but odd shifts of groups after every 2-3 shots. S3 later attributes the problem to operator error.
Shooter 4 - Front sight base on Colt Match Target is canted. Much windage required.
Day 1 ran about 2 hours past schedule and we fired less than 50 rounds apiece; but we did get the treat of seeing some seriously unusual and fun experimental weaponry at the 100yd line. Most of the delay was due to gear issues with guns and gear that had not been tried prior to class. I declined to clean my rifle despite encouragement from the instructor to do so.
Day 2
We reconfirmed zero in the morning and then went to class to discuss the principles of basic marksmanship and general use of the carbine. We began working on positional shooting (standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone). During the positional shooting S2 suffered several more light strikes with the JARD match trigger.
In the afternoon we begin to practice moving and shooting. First by walking in place and then by advancing, retreating, and lateral movement. Round counts began to pick up during these drills and as heat increased so did the problems. S1 saw several doublefeeds as his gun would extract but fail to eject the spent cartridge as it got hot. S2 began to cuss his rifle as the POF gas piston upper began to choke as well. Vltor stock on S2's rifle became non-functional temporarily; but was fixed. S2 also ditched the Trijicon TA31F ACOG in favor of a Nightforce 2.5-10x24 mildot reticle scope.
Yours truly, who has often commented that they had never seen a stoppage attributed solely to fouling within less than 800 round, was treated to that experience as the SLIP2000 Gun Lubricant choked and dried up around 400rds. Suffered 1 stoppage on a mag and then 3 stoppages on the next mag. Next break I relubed the BCG rails and the bolt and problem disappeared again.
All the other guns ran fine. We broke class with an admonishment to be ready to shoot in the morning. I had my revenge on the Breakfree shooters as while they were cleaning a gummy nasty mess, I was done in short order with a quick wipedown. Tried the "Wipeout" bore cleaner on my bore though and spend a long time patching out all the crud it found. I also binned my Blackhawk M4/Pistol holster (soon to be on the EE) for a Bladetech Tactical Chest Rig modified to fit a Hi-Power as a straight drop MOLLE rig. At least that is what I ordered and what the BladeTech invoice indicated. What I received was their standard TCR modified to fit the Hi-Power. As a straight-drop rig it sucked big time. The MALICE clips allowed a lot of floppage and gave an extra 3-4" of drawstroke before the holster stopped moving with the pistol. I bought a Blackhawk CQC/Serpa MOLLE mount plate and Bill Davison drilled holes in it to accomodate the BladeTech rig. The result was an amazingly fast and well thought out (except for the MOLLE attachment part) Kydex rig that was much more secure.
Day 3
We met to discuss stoppage and immediate action drills and were advised to bring 2 empty AR mags, 1 empty pistol mag and a rifle and pistol to the classroom for practice. No live ammo allowed naturally. I was wearing a pistol on the chest rig (first time to do carbine this way) and had loaded up the chest rig with full mags the night before. Rather than unload all those mags, I decided to leave the chest rig on the firing line and just use my concealed carry rig with an empty mag and the rifle. Train how you fight and all that; but let's not be ridiculous about it right? We train using drill rounds for a bit and then progress to the range where we are instructed to mix 4 drill rounds into our partner's mags in whatever innovative ways our evil heart's desire.
On my first live fire stoppage, I drop to one knee and transition to pistol - not the loaded pistol in my chest rig mind you; but the empty pistol in my concealed carry rig. My embarrasment is used as a teaching point for the rest of the class and I rack up 25 pushups (given in 5 pushup increments) in the incident as incentive not to repeat it. Next time I draw my chestrig pistol; but not until after my hand had once again tried to betray me by going for the CCW piece. Something to be said for muscle memory...
In addition, saw the following problems:
S1's carbine rolled over and died. Many, many stoppages all day long. Tried to assist by changing extractor spring. Carbine still failed to function when hot. S1 couldn't finish final drill due to carbine choking every round in magazine midway through drill. Since the final drill involved moving to cover whenever stoppage occurred, S1 could never advance from cover. My diagnosis was bad ejector spring; but don't know what the problem was.
S2's carbine began to run with no issues despite no cleaning or tweaking the night before. Nobody knows why. I attribute it to "new gun tightness".
S4 - one stoppage.
S5 - one stoppage, mag fed two rounds at once. Drilled the snot out of 2 innocent bystanders during final drill due to combo of movement and limited field of view of magnified scope (shot one 12 times thinking it was my target). Both bystanders and targets looked identical, thus the confusion as I didn't realize I had "bounced" my sights over to a new target.
We finished the day with a quick review and policing of the range. Most of us feeling worn out by the final drill which had the odd effect of making you feel incredibly out of breath even though it seemed like you were moving at a snail's pace. Total round count for three days was between 900-1,100 (rough estimate among the six students).
My own thoughts:
You are paying your money to learn. The more things you take care of BEFORE you come to class, the more you can learn new things (provided of course that all of your fellow students share that outlook).
At the very least, please, please, please don't bring brand spanking new gear to class and waste everyone else's time trying to get it squared away. ESPECIALLY do not abandon your brand new gear mid-class for newer gear that requires the rest of the class to hold up while you apply and work your new gear. While I'm sure the range owner loves the purchase, the rest of us didn't pay money to watch you reconfigure your rifle. Sometimes changes are necessary; but after class or lunch on YOUR time is the right place to implement them.
The dirty secret of Rhodesian style rigs is that carrying 20lbs of gear high up on your chest makes for a very sore back if you aren't accustomed to it. It was a very convenient rig and widely appreciated throughout the class as well as being fast and practical; but it is like slinging on one of those pregnant suits. My total gear weight with rifle, pistols and chest rig was just over 30lbs.
Used Hatch kneepads and appreciated them alot once I figured out how to adjust them correctly. With Columbia ROC pants, the pads would slide down over time. With Wranglers the pads were more comfortable and never shifted. The Hatch elbow pads were only good with a long-sleeved shirt. Otherwise the velcro straps rubbed your arms raw. Elbow pads did not survive the pre-class evaluation before they were ditched for discomfort.
Out of all the different sights and optics, the best scores did not follow gear at all; but experience. The more experience shooters had in rifles, the better they shot, regardless of their gear. Having said that, variable scopes did very well once you accounted for experience.
First, the shooters and their gear:
Shooter 1:
Bushmaster 16" 1/9 HBAR A3 w/y-comp. Optics were NCStar clone of OKO red dot with factory mount. Didn't catch what the secondary weapon was. LBE was USGI LBV. Rifle had around 5,000 rounds on it prior to class.
Shooter 2:
Rock River lower w/ JARD single stage trigger and POF gas-piston upper. Optics were TA31F ACOG in TA51 mount. Secondary was Glock 9mm. LBE was older Blackhawk vest. Rifle had ~30 rounds on it prior to class.
Shooter 3:
Bushmaster/parts gun built by owner. 16" 1/9 M4 barrel. Optic was Aimpoint Comp M2 in GG&G mount. Secondary was Glock 9mm. LBE was combo of belt pouches, pockets and Blackhawk SAW pouch. Rifle had less than 100 rounds on it.
Shooter 4:
Colt Match Target HBAR 20" 1/7 A2. No optics. Secondary was Glock 9mm. LBE was pockets and belt holster/pistol mag pouches. Owner had never fired rifle previously.
Shooter 5:
Bushmaster/parts gun. 16" 1/9 HBAR barrel. Optic was TA11 ACOG. Secondary was Browning Hi-Power. LBE was Blackhawk Commando Recon (Rhodesian) chest rig. Rifle had 7,800 rounds on it.
Shooter 6:
Armalite M15A4 16" 1/9 HBAR. Optic was Leupold 1-4x shotgun scope. Secondary was Glock 34. LBE was shooter's vest, SOTech drop leg and pockets. Rifle had ~1,500 rounds on it.
Day 1
Most of morning and afternoon spent in class. We cover role of carbine, wound ballistics, maintenance, pluses and minuses of AR15 system. Instructor is not a fan of AR15 system, though unlike most critics has a considerable base of experience (including multiple tests to destruction) with the system. Instructor also evaluates LBE and other gear to assure it meets safety criteria. Slings are evaluated based on whether they allow you to tuck the rifle under weakside arm, will not allow gun to be pointed back at user while attached to sling, and whether sling can be used as a choke. All slings pass (GI Nylon, Specter Gear MOUT, Blackhawk SWIFT, and improvised single points that attach at stock). Finally we begin to zero and the problems start:
Shooter 4 notes that the instructor's zero is different from Colt zero. In order to teach the point effectively, instructor has students zero according to Colt 25m zero procedure (Shooter 5 declines). All students are 7-9" high at 100yds and almost off the 12x12 paper at 300yds, except for me (S5) as I already had my zero at those ranges. In addition, we experience the following problems:
Shooter 1 - NCstar clone gets removed within first few initial zeroing shots. S1 reports NCstar would not hold zero and was loose on factory mount. Carry handle is installed.
Shooter 2 - JARD trigger has 3 light primer strikes that fail to fire. Minor trouble zeroing irons (fixed detachable front and Troy rear) due to higher rail on POF system.
Shooter 3 - Can't see target at all at 300yds due to 4MOA dot. Some trouble with consistent groups but odd shifts of groups after every 2-3 shots. S3 later attributes the problem to operator error.
Shooter 4 - Front sight base on Colt Match Target is canted. Much windage required.
Day 1 ran about 2 hours past schedule and we fired less than 50 rounds apiece; but we did get the treat of seeing some seriously unusual and fun experimental weaponry at the 100yd line. Most of the delay was due to gear issues with guns and gear that had not been tried prior to class. I declined to clean my rifle despite encouragement from the instructor to do so.
Day 2
We reconfirmed zero in the morning and then went to class to discuss the principles of basic marksmanship and general use of the carbine. We began working on positional shooting (standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone). During the positional shooting S2 suffered several more light strikes with the JARD match trigger.
In the afternoon we begin to practice moving and shooting. First by walking in place and then by advancing, retreating, and lateral movement. Round counts began to pick up during these drills and as heat increased so did the problems. S1 saw several doublefeeds as his gun would extract but fail to eject the spent cartridge as it got hot. S2 began to cuss his rifle as the POF gas piston upper began to choke as well. Vltor stock on S2's rifle became non-functional temporarily; but was fixed. S2 also ditched the Trijicon TA31F ACOG in favor of a Nightforce 2.5-10x24 mildot reticle scope.
Yours truly, who has often commented that they had never seen a stoppage attributed solely to fouling within less than 800 round, was treated to that experience as the SLIP2000 Gun Lubricant choked and dried up around 400rds. Suffered 1 stoppage on a mag and then 3 stoppages on the next mag. Next break I relubed the BCG rails and the bolt and problem disappeared again.
All the other guns ran fine. We broke class with an admonishment to be ready to shoot in the morning. I had my revenge on the Breakfree shooters as while they were cleaning a gummy nasty mess, I was done in short order with a quick wipedown. Tried the "Wipeout" bore cleaner on my bore though and spend a long time patching out all the crud it found. I also binned my Blackhawk M4/Pistol holster (soon to be on the EE) for a Bladetech Tactical Chest Rig modified to fit a Hi-Power as a straight drop MOLLE rig. At least that is what I ordered and what the BladeTech invoice indicated. What I received was their standard TCR modified to fit the Hi-Power. As a straight-drop rig it sucked big time. The MALICE clips allowed a lot of floppage and gave an extra 3-4" of drawstroke before the holster stopped moving with the pistol. I bought a Blackhawk CQC/Serpa MOLLE mount plate and Bill Davison drilled holes in it to accomodate the BladeTech rig. The result was an amazingly fast and well thought out (except for the MOLLE attachment part) Kydex rig that was much more secure.
Day 3
We met to discuss stoppage and immediate action drills and were advised to bring 2 empty AR mags, 1 empty pistol mag and a rifle and pistol to the classroom for practice. No live ammo allowed naturally. I was wearing a pistol on the chest rig (first time to do carbine this way) and had loaded up the chest rig with full mags the night before. Rather than unload all those mags, I decided to leave the chest rig on the firing line and just use my concealed carry rig with an empty mag and the rifle. Train how you fight and all that; but let's not be ridiculous about it right? We train using drill rounds for a bit and then progress to the range where we are instructed to mix 4 drill rounds into our partner's mags in whatever innovative ways our evil heart's desire.
On my first live fire stoppage, I drop to one knee and transition to pistol - not the loaded pistol in my chest rig mind you; but the empty pistol in my concealed carry rig. My embarrasment is used as a teaching point for the rest of the class and I rack up 25 pushups (given in 5 pushup increments) in the incident as incentive not to repeat it. Next time I draw my chestrig pistol; but not until after my hand had once again tried to betray me by going for the CCW piece. Something to be said for muscle memory...
In addition, saw the following problems:
S1's carbine rolled over and died. Many, many stoppages all day long. Tried to assist by changing extractor spring. Carbine still failed to function when hot. S1 couldn't finish final drill due to carbine choking every round in magazine midway through drill. Since the final drill involved moving to cover whenever stoppage occurred, S1 could never advance from cover. My diagnosis was bad ejector spring; but don't know what the problem was.
S2's carbine began to run with no issues despite no cleaning or tweaking the night before. Nobody knows why. I attribute it to "new gun tightness".
S4 - one stoppage.
S5 - one stoppage, mag fed two rounds at once. Drilled the snot out of 2 innocent bystanders during final drill due to combo of movement and limited field of view of magnified scope (shot one 12 times thinking it was my target). Both bystanders and targets looked identical, thus the confusion as I didn't realize I had "bounced" my sights over to a new target.
We finished the day with a quick review and policing of the range. Most of us feeling worn out by the final drill which had the odd effect of making you feel incredibly out of breath even though it seemed like you were moving at a snail's pace. Total round count for three days was between 900-1,100 (rough estimate among the six students).
My own thoughts:
You are paying your money to learn. The more things you take care of BEFORE you come to class, the more you can learn new things (provided of course that all of your fellow students share that outlook).
At the very least, please, please, please don't bring brand spanking new gear to class and waste everyone else's time trying to get it squared away. ESPECIALLY do not abandon your brand new gear mid-class for newer gear that requires the rest of the class to hold up while you apply and work your new gear. While I'm sure the range owner loves the purchase, the rest of us didn't pay money to watch you reconfigure your rifle. Sometimes changes are necessary; but after class or lunch on YOUR time is the right place to implement them.
The dirty secret of Rhodesian style rigs is that carrying 20lbs of gear high up on your chest makes for a very sore back if you aren't accustomed to it. It was a very convenient rig and widely appreciated throughout the class as well as being fast and practical; but it is like slinging on one of those pregnant suits. My total gear weight with rifle, pistols and chest rig was just over 30lbs.
Used Hatch kneepads and appreciated them alot once I figured out how to adjust them correctly. With Columbia ROC pants, the pads would slide down over time. With Wranglers the pads were more comfortable and never shifted. The Hatch elbow pads were only good with a long-sleeved shirt. Otherwise the velcro straps rubbed your arms raw. Elbow pads did not survive the pre-class evaluation before they were ditched for discomfort.
Out of all the different sights and optics, the best scores did not follow gear at all; but experience. The more experience shooters had in rifles, the better they shot, regardless of their gear. Having said that, variable scopes did very well once you accounted for experience.
