"Gussying Up the Gun Show Lie"

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gunsmith

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wow,sometimes the media tells the truth!
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=5158
"Gussying Up the Gun Show Lie"

Posted by Jan Ireland
Monday, December 01, 2003


What do you do if everything you stand for is a lie, and that gets found out? Anti-gun organizations often just rename themselves, and declare they’re mainstream. They appear reasonable, and use cheery language. They choose one target--say, gun show loophole--and hint that fixing that one problem would by golly, fix America. Trouble is, the gun show loophole is a gussied-up lie. It doesn’t exist. So just why would anti-gunners go after it so often? Three reasons.

I have to wonder if the people who hate guns have ever been around them. It’s hard to picture them walking up and down aisles with every kind of gun imaginable. I have to admit I mentally see them brandishing a cross to ward off the evil. But then, a cross is probably the last thing an anti-gunner would have.

The vast majority of gun owners I have known over the years have been God fearing and decidedly patriotic. The kind of people who would revere crosses, not try to expunge them from public sight as many anti-gunners do. And the kind of people that criminals and terrorists would stick out from, like proverbial sore thumbs. And that brings up the first lie about gun shows.

Anti-gunners claim that terrorists and criminals flock to gun shows to buy guns, because security is lax and there are no background checks on the weekends. Wrong. Way wrong.

As anti-gunners well know but won’t tell you, federal, state and local laws don’t take the weekend off. Federal Firearms Licensees must abide by all of them to keep their licenses. And, apparently while anti-gunners weren’t looking, America has progressed to telephone access right there at the booth. The same lines that run your credit card purchase, are used for NCIC background checks.

If the main premise is a lie, what keeps bringing up gun show loophole so often? Lie number two is caused by Granny. Or, Sonny. Or, Sis. They’re the ''unlicensed dealers'' anti-gunners disparage. Family members who want to sell the guns they inherited or can no longer use, but who are not gun dealers. Who do not plan to be in business.

Americans as ordinary people are allowed to sell their property, person to person, without a Federal license. And ordinary people exercising their Second Amendment rights directly, American to American, upsets gun control zealots even more than a business selling guns. That’s the animus behind the gussying up of the second lie.

In the same way that we don’t require individuals to get a federal license to have an estate sale after a family member dies, or to get a state permit to hold a garage sale after spring cleaning, we do not require inordinate regulation for the disposal of personal property. And that leads to the third lie.

Despite outlandish percentages you might have seen, less than 2% of guns used by criminals come from gun shows. (Source: NRA ILA report of BJS and NIJ statistics.) If you were a terrorist or criminal, would you willingly enter a place where so many law-abiding, gun-savvy citizens were congregated?

When examined, the lies of gun-hating zealots fall apart. Guns provide a means of personal and family protection; sports and recreation; and long term value. The styling and efficiency of guns is beauty in motion. Rejecting them outright as instruments of evil, is like rejecting Botticelli paintings as vile and morally bankrupt.

Gun control zealots don’t believe in the Second Amendment guaranteed to us by the Constitution. They want every gun out of the hands of Americans. They’ll use anything to try to achieve their goals incrementally, since they’ve been unsuccessful with a frontal assault. The ''gun show loophole'' doesn’t exist. The next time you hear someone use that phrase, ask them if their name is Gussy.

Jan Ireland is a freelance writer and former teacher who resides in Texas. She receives e-mail at: [email protected]
 
I think there are many honest journalists out there. But there just aren't that many places for them to get published.

Biased owners, publishers and managing editors are the ones that keep the truth from being heard.

Just another advantage of electronic media. More and more voices of truth can be heard.
 
Please excuse my ignorance but would somebody pleas give me a clear unbiased non fanatical definition of the gun show loop hole, where this premise comes from, and why it does not exist.
I've heard this topic thrown around alot lately and do not understand it enough to talk intelligently about it when cornered.
 
except in PRK... where "legally" I cant sell my legally owned property to another non-prohibited person. must have the help of a FFL and pay 20 DROS fees and wait 10 days.

otherwise good article
 
The vast majority of gun owners I have known over the years have been God fearing.… The kind of people who would revere crosses, not try to expunge them from public sight as many anti-gunners do.…

“The state shouldn’t touch my guns, but it should damn well impose my religion on everyone else.â€

And we wonder why we lose … :(

~G. Fink
 
Please excuse my ignorance but would somebody pleas give me a clear unbiased non fanatical definition of the gun show loop hole, where this premise comes from, and why it does not exist.

Some folks falsely believe that all you have to do is walk into a gun show and pay for a gun and it is yours. They concentrate on the ability of a normal, non-dealer, private citizens ability to get a table at a gun show and sell their private collection of firearms. Just as they could if they put an ad in the paper and you went to their home to buy a gun from them. They miss the fact that all Laws still apply in a gun show. All FFL dealers must perform a background check and the required paperwork. Just as they would if you went to their shop and bought from them. The gun show is nothing more than dealers and private citizens brought together under one roof. No “loopholes†I can find.

The fact that most of the tables at the shows are FFL holders with on or two “private†sellers escapes these folks.

The “GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE†is a sound byte for politicians and lobbyists to get on the six o’clock news.

Just my$.02
 
semf

Let me try.

A gun show loophloe does not exist. All rules and regs apply to everyone, everyday, everywhere. The term is used to label private party sales by individuals to individuals. The person to person sale that takes place in a home, in a vehicle, in the field is supposedly a loophole if it takes place at a gun show. In other words, the sale is either legal or it is not, no matter where or when it takes place. An illegal sale at a gun show is an illegal sale, not a loophole.

Does that help?

Marshall
 
To further complicate matters, there are many people that believe that you can buy ANY kind of firearm at a gun show; like it's some kind of bazaar where you can pick up Kalashnikovs, MG42s, grenades, RPGs, mines, etc. They honestly believe that at "gun shows" federal firearms laws don't apply.

Mr. Fink, I fail to see how the author stating with approval that many gun owners he's met are religious people constitutes "forcing" his religion on you.
 
I'm OK with closing the "hole"...

I might take a little flak for this one... but I'm skittish about sellilng firearms without the aid of an FFL. No FFL dealer means no NICS check and I've been asked by people before to sell them a longarm of mine... when I'm not too sure that they can own one. I've never sold a firearm and I don't really plan on it. If I get a junker SKS or something someday I could probably pass it off (at no profit) to people I know personally that dig that sorta thing though.

Ideally, we'd just open up NICS to the general public for the good of the people and let us background check people before we sell to them. Not enforced, as there would be no Yellow Form in my plan. It still leaves the "loophole" but I'd imagine a large percentage of people selling to the general (firearm owning) public would run a background check just as a CYA procedure. With no Yellow Form though there's really no proof that you did a check though. I can't think of a way to keep the seller totally in the clear though without a form identifying the purchaser though. Maybe some brainstorming needs to be done here.

Or... just create a new FFL that permits mailing of firearms to you and allows you access to NICS but make it a "non dealer" license. Sort of like a C&R, but with NICS access and more firearms available to you. I'd get one.

The Clinton push to make FFLs harder to get just doesn't make any sense to me... and that's the same crowd that shouts "gun show loophole" over and over again. When you put the two arguments together coming from the same person it's obvious that they just want to end firearm ownership.
 
in florida you can go to a gun show with a florida driver's license, cash in hand, and walk out 5 minutes later a couple hand guns and a rifle in tow.

no background checks, no forms to fill out, nothing. is that a good idea? you can decide for youself, but the fact is, it can be Much easier to get a gun at a gun show than through a dealer.
 
What I find amusing is that many newspapers-including the local paper here "The Tennessean"(otherwise known as "Pravda on the Cumberland River") have or had a "guns for sale" section in their own classifieds. I guess that means when a firearm is exchanged via their forum that act is protected as "freedom of the press" and not actually "an unregulated firearm transaction." That they would continue to falsely perpetuate the "gun show loophole" that doesn't exist is not surprising. Self serving hypocrisy on behalf of the media and their minions is nothing new.
 
guns ahoy

In Florida if you're carrying concealed without a permit and get caught
you get a felony.
If your a felon with a gun you get a felony.
Criminals really don't go to gunshows,most criminals buy stolen guns.
If you sell your gun to a felon you can go to jail.
 
in florida you can go to a gun show with a florida driver's license, cash in hand, and walk out 5 minutes later a couple hand guns and a rifle in tow.

no background checks, no forms to fill out, nothing. is that a good idea? you can decide for youself, but the fact is, it can be Much easier to get a gun at a gun show than through a dealer.

Don't they use the D/L to do the check?
 
790.065 Sale and delivery of firearms.--

(1) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer may not sell or deliver from her or his inventory at her or his licensed premises any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, until she or he has:

(a) Obtained a completed form from the potential buyer or transferee, which form shall have been promulgated by the Department of Law Enforcement and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, which shall include the name, date of birth, gender, race, and social security number or other identification number of such potential buyer or transferee and has inspected proper identification including an identification containing a photograph of the potential buyer or transferee.

(b) Collected a fee from the potential buyer for processing the criminal history check of the potential buyer. The fee shall be established by the Department of Law Enforcement and may not exceed $8 per transaction. The Department of Law Enforcement may reduce, or suspend collection of, the fee to reflect payment received from the Federal Government applied to the cost of maintaining the criminal history check system established by this section as a means of facilitating or supplementing the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. The Department of Law Enforcement shall, by rule, establish procedures for the fees to be transmitted by the licensee to the Department of Law Enforcement. All such fees shall be deposited into the Department of Law Enforcement Operating Trust Fund, but shall be segregated from all other funds deposited into such trust fund and must be accounted for separately. Such segregated funds must not be used for any purpose other than the operation of the criminal history checks required by this section. The Department of Law Enforcement, each year prior to February 1, shall make a full accounting of all receipts and expenditures of such funds to the President of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the majority and minority leaders of each house of the Legislature, and the chairs of the appropriations committees of each house of the Legislature. In the event that the cumulative amount of funds collected exceeds the cumulative amount of expenditures by more than $2.5 million, excess funds may be used for the purpose of purchasing soft body armor for law enforcement officers.

(c) Requested, by means of a toll-free telephone call, the Department of Law Enforcement to conduct a check of the information as reported and reflected in the Florida Crime Information Center and National Crime Information Center systems as of the date of the request.

(d) Received a unique approval number for that inquiry from the Department of Law Enforcement, and recorded the date and such number on the consent form.

Straight from Florida's Website
 
this is based on personal experience from a couple of gun shows in florida.

one of them was in bradenton, fl. it was at the civic center, next to the police station. (we actually parked in the same lot as a lot of the cops :p )

anyway, you could go up to a table with a drivers license and cash. ask to buy a handgun, then agree on the price..ect. at which point the dealer would as for your Florida drivers license, you show it to him, he looks it over to make sure it seems legit, then sells you the gun for cash. no paperwork or anything like that. walk out the door with your gun and wave to the cops in the parking lot.

(it's really quite funny to see a bunch of people walking out of a civic center with rifles on shoulders and handgun cases in hand, while police are going in and out of the building next to you :D )
 
Highland Ranger:

They do it by name, DOB, social security number, etc...

D/L does have a space on the yellow form but its usually used as a refrence to positive ID for the dealer to show they checked it rather than a de facto item in the call in.
 
In Florida if you're carrying concealed without a permit and get caught
you get a felony.
If your a felon with a gun you get a felony.

um, ok ... im not sure how that's relevant to buying a gun at a gun show :confused:

Criminals really don't go to gunshows,most criminals buy stolen guns.
If you sell your gun to a felon you can go to jail.

i wasn't saying that criminals get a majority of guns from gun shows, i was just pointing out that it is much easier to get a gun from a gun show in florida, than from a gun shop in florida.
 
I have a hard time beliving this. Did this "dealer" have a copy of his FFL posted on the table?

I do the gun shows frequently as an exhibitor in FL, and I will agree that there is a larger portion of the tables taken up by private collectors that are looking to get rid of stuff from their safe. I'd say that about 25-35% of the entire show consists of dealers.
 
I have a hard time beliving this. Did this "dealer" have a copy of his FFL posted on the table?

I do the gun shows frequently as an exhibitor in FL, and I will agree that there is a larger portion of the tables taken up by private collectors that are looking to get rid of stuff from their safe. I'd say that about 25-35% of the entire show consists of dealers.

i may have used the term 'dealer' too loosely ... i was just using it to refer to a guy selling guns from a booth, not a 'dealer' in the FFL holding sense.

i cant say if he had his FFL posted on the table. it could have been a 'private collector' ... but that would have been in name only. at this particular table there was probobly 7 sigs NIB, 5 glocks that looked to be in excellent to NIB condition, and a selection of revolvers.

ill freely admit im not well versed on the florida laws concerning gun shows. but there was, in fact, just about any hand gun or rifle availbe from 'private collectors' (if that is the right term, legally) for cash and a simple drivers license scan
 
Thank you. Thats all I needed to know.

The thing about the gun shows here in FL is that you have to remember that there are retired folk by the dozen down here that have huge collections of WWII and military memorabilia that go to these shows to sell off part of their collections. I've met fellows who collected nothing but garands, nothing but old colts, nothing BUT colts, nothing but stainless S&W's et al.

Next time use the term "exhibitor" rather than "dealer"

I will admit that it can get confusing.
 
Thank you. Thats all I needed to know.

The thing about the gun shows here in FL is that you have to remember that there are retired folk by the dozen down here that have huge collections of WWII and military memorabilia that go to these shows to think out their collections. I've met fellows who collected nothing but garands, nothing but old colts, nothing BUT colts, nothing but stainless S&W's et al.

Next time use the term "exhibitor" rather than "dealer"

I will admit that it can get confusing.

no problem... now that we have the genesis of it clear, my original point still holds ... it's VERY easy to get guns from gun shows.
 
Just as a parallel line of thought...

I live in People's Democratic Socialist Republic of California. I cannot sell one of my personal firearms to anyone without the State getting into the act.

However, I can sell a car to just about anyone. I am not required to inquire if the buyer has a license; if the buyer has a drinking problem; if the buyer has insurance; if the buyer is going to use the vehicle for an illegal purpose. I do have to send the state a notice that I am no longer the owner of said vehicle.

Any doubt as to which device kills more people?
 
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