Hammer & Sear Angles

[Old Fuff]

Jammer:

Before you do any more stoning on ANY hammer hooks I want you to take a good hard look at some of the pictures I posted. The reason for those radiuses in the bottom corner is because someone tried to polish the hooks, or make them bear evenly on both sides. As the stone advanced the hooks it left the radius.

If you are setting up a service pistol (read that to mean a personal pistol that is carried as, or intended to be otherwise used as a weapon) stoning the hooks on a standard Colt or USGI hammer can be counter productive. The procedures and methods that are used to make the "ideal" trigger pull on a target or combat game guns are different. Service pistol armorers never altered hammers and sears in the maner perscribed for MTU (bullseye) match gun builders. The 90 degrees hooks/break-away angled sears systems were originally developed during the late 1950/early 1960 by the military match armorers, and remain the basis for what is generally used today on most custom 1911 pistols. It is interesting to note that during this early period the military match gun builders had a special "match grade sear" but no match grade hammers. Instead they used regular service hammers and altered them for their own use. It was emphasized that it was absolutely necessary to maintain the 90 degree angle with a sharp corner in the bottom, and they were very careful to be sure that was done.

 

[1911Tuner]

Modesty

Howdy CCW. Not bein' modest at all...and nope again. I don't do 3-pound triggers. Not even on slow-fire Bullseye guns...which I don't fool with too much either. Just not my interest. The lathe blanks...bot square and ground undersquare...are used for smoothing up the surface a little. I leave the hooks long, the breakaway is very small, the primary is wide, and the trigger pull stays above 5 pounds. The thing is, that if the trigger pull is smooth, the finger thinks 4 pounds while the gauge reads 5 or 6. Think of it as more of a well-seasoned stock trigger without havin' to shoot the gun loose to get it.
Makes for a nice, serviceable trigger that doesn't require concentration to keep from touchin' off a shot before you really want it to.

Also...a sharp corner at the bottom of the hooks isn't what I like to see either. Sharp corners lead to cracks. A tiny radius or fillet in the corner takes care of that.

Oh! BillZ...Don't knock the denim trick 'til ya give it a chance. Use your finger to work in a tiny bit of J&B or 5 micron lap and buff briskly...til you cause heat from the friction. If ya had a tiny little head, you could see your reflection in it.

Cheers all!

 

[Jammer Six]

I only see a radius on the top of the hooks in the bottom picture.

Do you guys mean a radius on the back of the hooks? I don't see how that can affect anything, except that on the bottom picture, I think I see a radius from the engagement surface of the hooks to the top of the hooks.

This is the first time I've seen or heard of such a radius. It's not in any of the books I've read.

If I'm seeing it correctly, it looks tiny.

 

[Wichaka]

Anymore if you get a good quality matched sear/hammer set, you won't have this problem.

I match up Browns Hardcore barstock hammer with either their perfection sear or Nowlind pro match. The same with using Nowlin hammers, use a Nowlin sear, and very little fitting is needed............

As for the sear.........I'm off to put on my 800 grit blue jeans!

 

[1911Tuner]

Square Deal

Sorry for not being more specific, Jammer.

Sharp, square corners at the bottom of the hooks isn't good. You always want a slight fillet to prevent stress-risers and cracks.

 

[CougarRed]

The interesting thing to me about this thread is not the debate about how to properly square hammer hooks.

It's that we have someone who apparently wants gunsmithing work admitting he sends his hammers halfway across the country to have the hooks squared.

 

[Bill Z]

The interesting thing to me about this thread is not the debate about how to properly square hammer hooks.

It's that we have someone who apparently wants gunsmithing work admitting he sends his hammers halfway across the country to have the hooks squared.

Then you've missed the point of an entire thread, and you are mistaken about me. Batting zero sucks, doesn't it?

I have never trolled for work, I have more than I can finish in a timely manner and don't need the work to make a living. I reccomend out more work to other smiths than anyone I know and never ask for any business, what I get seeks me out, and it will always be that way. I do this for profit and fun money, not butter and egg money.

Do I send my mill work out? Yes, of course I do, and only to the best in the business, and it's not cheap, but you would be surprised to know who else in the business does and who they use, I'm one of the few that will admit it though and let the customer know up front. I see no sense in buying 50K worth of equipment to turn out a couple of full customs and a handful of work every year.

Guess what, I contract out refinishing too for the most part.

 

[Jammer Six]

It's cheap, easy, and works every time.

Yes, of course I do, and only to the best in the business, and it's not cheap,

Okay, if you say so. Now the only question I have for you is which one of your sayin' so you want me to listen to.

I see no sense in buying 50K worth of equipment to turn out a couple of full customs and a handful of work every year.

Neither do I. It's just that we've arrived at different solutions for that problem. It also surprises me that if you don't do this "...for butter and egg money..." that you don't understand why I'm willing to spend more doing my trigger in my basement than I would at a gunsmith.

I mean, if you don't do this professionally, and you don't do it to make money, why are so opposed to my desire to do the same thing?

You're right, of course, Bill. This thread isn't about you. (Unless, of course, you want to make it about you, but that seems like it would be a poor choice.)

Listen, Bill, I want to learn how to square the hooks on my hammers. I want to learn how to do it with hand tools, in my basement. Are you the gunsmith that can teach me? Is that you? Can you help me?

So far, I'm grateful to all who have participated.

I've learned how to recognize good work on hammer hooks, and I've developed at least one litmus test for choosing gunsmiths, if I ever throw up my hands in despair, and abandon this quest.

Thanks to all of you.

 

[CCW1911]

Tuner, sounds like you do some mighty fine trigger work, did you know that Cylinder and Slide sells a kit that consists of basically a lathe blank and some very very fine paper to hone with? They call it their Micro-Hone kit. I got one from Bill at the Shot show but i hate to admit I haven't tried it yet.

Ross

 

[Old Fuff]

Jammer:

The 1911 pistol has been with us for about 94 years. I’m not sure who did the first trigger pull “adjustment.†But I’m sure it happened shortly after the pistol’s introduction.

From that time on, ‘smiths at Colt did it they’re way, and later others did it differently. In examining a large number of pistols – new and old – and including several original pre-war Colt National Match pistols I have identified a least 5 different methods and variations. The most common one today was originally developed at Springfield Armory (the government one, not the current company) during the late 1950’s and early 60’s for the purpose of tuning the pull on bullseye target pistols, and at that time the technique had nothing to do with pistols carried or used as weapons.

At Colt, excluding the target pistols of the 1930’s, trigger pulls were usually done on the basis of special requests from customers buying what were presumed would be service pistols. Those guns were done following the general outline of what I will call the “Tuner Method.†The results were appropriate for pistols that were carried rather then shot at targets. However by the middle 1960’s and thereafter they followed the “Springfield Method†on target pistols such as the Gold Cup in its original version, but used a different way on setting the pulls on production guns.

All of this has led you into a morass of confusion of conflicting views about what should or shouldn’t be done, and/or how to do it. Unfortunately a sense of what happened and why, isn’t something one learns overnight. It comes from study and experience over a long time.

There is no one “best way†that covers any and all situations. You have to decide from the outset, what are you trying too accomplish, for what purpose (target, combat game, personal weapon, etc.) and what are your expectations?

If I wanted a weapon I would follow Tuner’s advice. He knows the 1911 pistol as a weapon, both from an armorer’s and user’s perspective. He has been there and done that, and in his field he is unsurpassed.

If I were interested in participating in any number of various and interesting shooting games I would listen to BillZ and CCW1911 as well as others. From what I have seen they are well versed in doing trigger pull adjustments for those and other similar purposes.

While the 1911 pistol has proved to be very adaptable, it was originally designed to be a military service pistol. When it is adapted to be something else the adaptations should match the purpose, and that includes the way, or procedure, by which the trigger pull is set up.

Clear as mud???

 

[1911Tuner]

Drawin' Blanks

CCW said:

>>Did you know that Cylinder and Slide sells a kit that consists of basically a lathe blank and some very very fine paper to hone with?<<
*******************

For real? Didn't know that. My uncle showed me that little trick in 1965 or '66...Can't remember exactly. He told me that he had been using it since
about the time Battaan fell...when he signed on with the Navy...so I'd say that it's been around for awhile. The undersquared blank was my own idea,
and I use it more than the square one.

I wouldn't say that I do "Mighty Fine" trigger work, since it mainly consists of
smoothing up engagement surfaces instead of altering them...and getting both hooks onto the sear. The results have been pretty good, though Jim Tosco acts like it strains his hand to make the hammer fall on my pistols.
Jim's been spoiled by Abernathy's 2.5-pound triggers...I leave that sort of work to the masters of the craft.

I like Chuck's radius at the top of the hooks, since it looks like it would make for a nice rollout break...especially if used in conjunction with a light breakaway at 40-45 degrees to the primary. I remember seeing an old-timer's
variation to that with a sort of "escape" angle on the hooks that appeared to be at about 20 degrees, with the top edges stoned flat and just touched with a stone to dress any burrs that might have been kicked up.
__________________________

Yo Fuff! Thanks for the good words...but "Unsurpassed" is a little strong. Some of the best armorers that have ever taken a breath will never be heard of, since very few used their skill in civilian life. Many of'em did their work for 30 years, retired, and fished for the remainder of their days...never even touchin' another pistol.

 

[Jammer Six]

Yup, muddy clear.

Actually, things are starting to take shape.

I already know how to use a credit card and the postal service, I wouldn't pay very much for someone to teach me that. Professionally, I run a long list of subcontractors, I'm very good at it, and quite frankly, it bores me.

What I'm after is skill, and I agree, skill is the most expensive thing you can buy, because there's only one coin that will buy it.

It turns out that there aren't very many people who are qualified to teach what I'm seeking, but the very act of seeking it out has been extremely instructive. I've been able to eliminate a couple posers at our range, based on what I've learned in this quest to date, and that has merely been a by-product of the (extremely small) accumulation of knowledge I've developed so far.

Extremely small, but genuine. It'll do, for tonight. Tomorrow, I'll begin again.

I just wish it weren't triggers.

The people who really know what I'm seeking are fairly reluctant to talk about them, witness 'Tuner and his famous views on liability. I'm not particularly surprised, I just wish the liability were lower, so people would be more willing to discuss it.

Speaking of discussing it, my squaring file showed up today, and after my first run at my hammer with it, I'm going to have to figure out a new way. That file simply won't work with the jig I have, at least not in my hands. There's no support for the file, and there's no way to make sure I'm holding it parallel to the pin holes. In fact, there's no way to tell if the pin holes are parallel to the jig other than shimming, and that's a trial & error process at best.

I may end up building a jig of my own, while I see that this is clearly a skilled issue, I also don't see how even the most skilled hand could hold steady enough to polish hooks without some kind of jig.

 

[Old Fuff]

>> Yo Fuff! Thanks for the good words...but "Unsurpassed" is a little strong. <<

Da Fuff calls um' the way he sees um.

>> Some of the best armorers that have ever taken a breath will never be heard of, since very few used their skill in civilian life. Many of'em did their work for 30 years, retired, and fished for the remainder of their days...never even touchin' another pistol. <<

Yup, and I've known some of them. The same can be said of old-timers that worked at Colt. The trouble is when they went fishing their knowledge, for all practical purposes, became a moot point because they didn't pass anything on. You are an exception to the rule.

I first noticed the practice of putting an angle or radius at the top of the hooks (hammer upside down) on Colt "adjusted" trigger pulls. Few know it today, but they also did something similar on double-action revolver hammers when adjusting the pulls. In both cases it lessened the area of contact between the sear or trigger and hammer as they rotated out of contact with each other. In the case of 1911 pistols it also served to "kick" the sear clear of the half-cock notch.

 

[19112XS]

OK, I'll say it. Tuner does "Mighty Fine" trigger work. He's smoothed out creepy, long pulls and brought reason to "baby's breath" pulls. He's also fixed other "pistolsmith's" mistakes. I still don't know how he can make a 5 lb pull feel like 4 lb tho......but it works.

 

[Jammer Six]

Oh, and 'Fuff, I forgot- this is going to be a weapon.

It will go to the range, but it's a weapon. Always has been, always will be. I'll never own a game gun.

At any rate, I was already playing with the idea that .020 was thin- I've been listening to 'Tuner preach it, and Kuhnhausen says that .018 -.020 is for match guns, while service weapons should be .025 -.030.

I'm coming to see that there's a lot more to be gained in the land of Smooth, than in simply chopping down the hooks.

At any rate, what I'm driving at is this: the hammers I've seen so far come with hooks that are about .020 or .022 high. I haven't seen anything more than that.

Does one start grinding away on that base, to make the hooks higher? Doesn't that alter the geometry?

And when you guys are talking about that radius, are you talking about that little, tiny, barely present radius at the top of the hooks? The one where it's more of a really dull edge than a radius?

 

[Old Fuff]

USGI and older (regular spur and original Commander) Colt Commercial hammers had hook depths of around .027-.030" I just checked one I had at about .028" to .029" (give or take a half mile).

The new "Elongated Commander" hammers that are made to match up with duck-butt grip safety's generally have shallow hooks because the gamers want light, crisp trigger pulls above all else.

Generally, you shouldn't start grinding, filing or whatever at the base. That what you locate and work off of, and if you change that surface you have no way to keep the hooks at 90 degrees (or undercut as the case may be.) in relation to that flat.

I'll try to post another picture tomorrow that shows the radius or angle on the top of the hooks.

 

[1911Tuner]

Tips, etc.

Jammer...The secret is to use a light touch and to go s-l-o-w...
Keep in mind that keeping parallel to the pin hole is an exercise in futility
unless the holes in the frame are drilled perfectly straight...which few are.
The goal is to get both hooks bearing squarely and evenly on the sear...
which usually requires that one hook be adjusted independently of the other.
Not sure how far you want to go to pick up the skills, but a suggestion is to enroll in a machinist's course. Most community colleges offer an evening
class that offers just the Machine Shop Theory and Practice part of the
course without having to take on the whole vocational diploma stuff.
Explain what you want to get from it, and the instructor will likely work with you to that end. What you want to gain is a few basic toolmaking skills.

Also...Most aftermarket hammers have those shortened hooks...by reason of supply and demand. So much has been made of match-grade triggers, that it's come to be expected. The shooting public demands it, and the manufacturers will supply it...Simple as that. I'm not completely sure...since I've never used a Cylinder & Slide prepped hammer...but I believe they're
offered with .023 hooks. About the only option that you have if you want'em longer is to special order or search for unaltered USGI or Colt hammers. If you can find pre-Series 80 take-offs, you're good to go. Otherwise, Series 80 hammers don't have the captive half-cock notch that I like, but they're
workable if you can live without that. There is a drawback if you plan on carrying the gun cocked and locked without the Series 80 safety parts.
More on that later.
*******************

2XS is butterin' me up because he's after my blond Colt...
*******************

Fuff...I tried fishin'. Not my cuppa tea. 'Druther mess with pistols. My uncle
hated fishin' too....so I got lucky. Back in the dear, dead days before the '68 GCA, he was makin' himself a nice chunk of change by buyin' up old GI pistols
and resellin'em after the rework. A former Forsyth County (NC) Sheriff bought one from him back in '66...at a gun show...in the parkin' lot! Lord!
Those were the days...
***********************

A little trick that'll tell you whether both hooks are on the sear is to boost the
hammer lightly by inserting the tip of a medium-sized screwdriver between the hammer and grip safety tang. Don't exert pressure on the tool, but let just its weight apply the levering force. Pick a screwdriver that's long enough to depress the grip safety. Pull the trigger. If the force needed to
drop the hammer is more than just a tiny bit heavier that the normal trigger pull....maybe a half pound heavier...you've only got one hook on the sear.

Luck!

 

[Bill Z]

Well Lyle, I thought I was trying to help. Getting the hammer hooks suae on a hammer is relativly cheap when compared to the amount of money you spend on jigs, sears and fiiles, and then find out that there isn't a stone made that will hold a true 90* square for long if it's doing the cutting. Other machine work isn't cheap.

Just because I don't do it for butter and egg money doesn't mean I don't do it professionally. In get paid for my work, paid well for it, I just don't make my living at it, it would be too much work and too many hours of it trying to support three kids, one in college, and another household. It's a snap with my 'regular' job.

Like I stated in an early post

You've got a point. It's all business with me and I have my 'fun' doing it right the first time the easy way. Sorry I butted in, I thought Lyle wanted the quick and easy solution. Many times I forget that the journey is more important than the destination, no matter how expensive or complicated it is.

But I suppose you convieniently missed that. An explanation of my thought process and an apology.

Once again, sorry for trying to point you in a direction that I thought would save you time and money and give you a solid foundation for you to perfect your sear work to begin with,(There is a lesson in there somewhere), but you must have also somehow missed this post by me somehow.

You've got a point. It's all business with me and I have my 'fun' doing it right the first time the easy way. Sorry I butted in, I thought Lyle wanted the quick and easy solution. Many times I forget that the journey is more important than the destination, no matter how expensive or complicated it is.

Oh, wait a second, that was the same post when I replied to Salty's post

Yeah, but lookit all the fun he is having.

How more gracious could I have been backing out of your thread? I even acknowledged your comment of

Bill, now I see why you send your hammers out.

in a gracious manner.

Hope you find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow Lyle.

 

[1911Tuner]

Theories

This one brings me back to a couple of theories and conclusions that I've made mention of in the past...and drew some heavy fire. For reasons of a different perspective, I'll go back out on the same limb and see if any of it makes sense to anybody except me.

I've often said if one studies a design long enough, that he can determine the intent of the designer...or at least come up with some viable reasons for
WHY something was designed that way.

Bear this in mind while contemplating the post:

Browning, in his infinite wisdom and understanding of the mass-production process...knew that perfectly square hammer hooks and perfectly matching sear primary angles would be coincidental rather than the norm.

He designed the hooks to be long enough to maintain contact with the sear in the event of an oversquare hook engagement...one in which the mainspring tension on the hammer would tend to kick the sear out of engagement or in the event that dulled tooling wouldn't let the sear engage the bottoms of the
hooks for full depth of engagement.

The long hooks are also a hedge against the oft-mentioned "bounce" and the resulting hammer followdown. There's enough length to recapture the sear
before it escapes from the hooks. Actually, the hammer bounces very little, if any..assuming that the mainspring has adequate tension to keep the hammer in contact with the sear. The hammer bounce isn't the primary reason for hammer follow anyway...The main culprit is the trigger nudging the disconnect. What little the hammer actually bounces only makes a followdown more likely because it reduces load on the sear and makes full use of the trigger's "nudge."

These shortened hooks are done mainly for the elimination of creep...or discernable trigger movement between the beginning of pressure on the trigger to the break. Highly desirable in a match gun, but unnecessary
or even undesireable in a service pistol. In a gunfight, we won't be taking a helluva lotta time to get the perfect sight picture. Minute of thorax is generally the rule there.

When we shorten the hammer hooks below allowable tolerances, everything becomes more critical. Hook geometry (squareness)...Sear spring tension...
Mainspring tension...Sear primary angle agreement with the hooks...Everything becomes more critical over just a few thousandths of material.

I don't even believe that both hammer hooks bearing evenly on the sear is a critical point except with a match-type trigger job...in which the hooks are shortened beyond those design parameters...and it may even be detrimental.

With only one hook bearing the load..only one hook is being worn while the other is loafing. By the time the primary wears enough to allow equalization of both hooks to begin, the trigger pull is getting pretty smooth. At this point, the secondary hook is starting to make contact, and is beginning a smoothing process of its own under very light pressure...making its influence
go largely unnoticed. Its "polishing" is a gradual step. As the primary hook
allows more engagement, the secondary hook gets smoother...gradually...
and they eventually equalize. Now you have a very smooth trigger pull, and one that is still unlikely to produce a hammer followdown because the secondary hook geometry largely unaltered...Only the engagement surface is
smoothed through the light wear that it was subjected to. In time...both hooks are sitting evenly on the sear, but because of the self-polishing effect
of the two parts engaging one another...the trigger has become what we know as "sweet." Any Smith & Wesson wheelgun buff can describe how sweet the trigger action gets with use, and it explains why very old, original
1911s have such surprisingly smooth triggers. Yes...There's a bit of trigger creep in those old, well-used guns...but it's so smooth that it feels like it was done purposely...like Chuck's "Rollout Break."

Even if the hook to sear geometry isn't precisely done...the trigger action can be pretty sweet with just a little prep, if one isn't overly concerned with an action in which no trigger movement is felt between the pressure and the break. A tiny bit of creep...as long as it's smooth...won't have any practical
effect on the serviceability of the gun that is carried as a defensive tool.

See to the rough surfaces...Keep your hooks at a reasonable length...Keep your escape angle a reasonable width...no more than a third of the width of the primary angle instead of the "Half-and-Half" stuff. Forget the "Match Grade" mentality that seems to have taken over the scene, and you won't have to be anal-retentive over perfectly square hooks and perfectly mated sear engagement angles.

Flame suit on....

 

[Bill Z]

Hmmmm, I have always fouind that when the sear and the hooks don't bear the load together that there is a great difficulty in boosting the hammer. It readly shows itself and one or two passes with the stone remedy it. I've just never began so far off that even considering leaving the hooks and sear bearing uneven pressure has been contemplated. I guess that must be okay though since that is what most factory triggers are like out of the box, of course, that's what I get called upon to correct and it's what Lyle is attempting to improve on.

Could this new tecchnique you are describing be called a 'stealth' triggerjob? You know, where you do a trigger job, but it just doesn't really feel like it?

 

[45auto]

My Colt had one hammer hook bearing @90% of the load when new.
Now it appears to be @60% on one and 40% on the other hammer hook.

The trigger pull is better than you might expect, but not match grade. Put a little grease on the hooks and it might surprise you on how good it feels for target use.

 

[Old Fuff]

I know this is a radical thing too do, but the Old Fuff lacking adult guidance and supervision has gone and looked at the blueprint …

To be specific, “Hammer; Drawing No. D5503838, Department of the Army, Rock Island Arsenal.

In the usual convoluted Army way they dimension the depth of the hooks by measuring from the center of the hammer-pin hole to:

Base of the hooks = .268†+0/-003â€
Top of the hooks = .298†+0/-003

So the nominal hook depth would be .030â€.

They also call for a radius in the bottom (sharp) corner = .005†(max).

Last but not least, there is an interesting note that reads, “Break corner to obtain required trigger pull,†with an arrow pointing to the top corner of the hooks.

Now this means absolutely nothing when it comes to the current crop of aftermarket hammers, “drop-in†or otherwise. As Tuner previously pointed out they are made to entirely different specifications and dimensions for today’s gun builders - both individual and professional who have a different way of doing things. However it is better to go back to the beginning and come forward then to start in the middle. Also, as Tuner has pointed out before, the Army/Colt way may be better when it comes to weapons, then what has become today’s common practice.

Oh, and if anyone wants to see what Browning really thought a good hook/sear engagement should be go look at a hammer from a 1903 Colt Pocket Automatic …

More will be coming later …

 

[Bill Z]

I have a pre 70 series spur hammer, out of a commercial, that the hooks are at .032! I couldn't believe it, but there certainly wasn't much chance of it doubling or anything, in fact, the trigger pull was 'kid proof'. On another note, I just took in a 38 Super Commander and they were .21 from the factory and rough as a cobb, but had a decent trigger pull, go figure.

I think one thing we can all agree on is that there is a certain amount of 'feel' for this work, and for every job that goes easy there are ten, that even if you do everything right, will give you a fit and eat up your time before you get it right.

When it's all said and done, the hammer and sear relationship is just the beginning of the entire job, not the end of it. Sometimes it's the easiest part of the job, but once it's done, there are a dozen other surfaces that need attention to finish the job.

 

[1911Tuner]

New Technique

Bill asked:

>Could this new tecchnique you are describing be called a 'stealth' triggerjob? You know, where you do a trigger job, but it just doesn't really feel like it?<
************************

Nothin' "new" about it...or at least not any newer than the design itself.
It's called: "Let the parts wear in and square themselves up." It's worked for
a long time. 'Course, that assumes that the pin holes are drilled straight...
and for the 437th time, I...don't...do...trigger jobs. At least, not by today's
custom standards.

For me, A Colt .45 Auto with .018 hammer hooks and a 3-pound trigger pull is like a '65 389 Tri-Power GTO...All engine and little-bitty brakes.

 

[19112XS]

Aw shucks. Me? Butter anyone up over a pistol? Even an attractive blonde? Never!

Seriously, that blonde handled Colt, one of Tuner’s “range beaters†was one of the sweetest 1911(A1’s) I’ve ever handled. I shot it for a while and didn’t miss once! It’s an example of the parts wearing together to perfection, better than new.

I’ve seen hammer/sear engagement surfaces polished on blue jeans and even brown paper grocery bags. Smooth is the key. Short is not.