Hammer & Sear Angles

[Old Fuff]

You have another problem??? Well I just knew you would ...

My first thought is that the bottom/back of the hammer spur is hitting the the grip safety. Remove the grip safety and then see if the slide cycles O.K. If so, reinstall the grip safety, and then smoke the tang to see where the hammer is hitting. Once you know you can decide how to fix it.

 

[Jammer Six]

Cool!

Thanks, 'Fuff!

It cycles without the grip safety. So next I'll mark everything up, and try to figure out where it's hitting.

I'm not sure how I'll do that, the 337 is a Commander style hammer, and the grip safety is a beavertail, but I'll look it over, and try to see where it looks like it MIGHT be hitting.

Right now, though, it's Wednesday night, and I have to go shoot in one of the leagues I belong to.

It's so HARD when you HAVE to shoot as much as I do...

 

[Old Fuff]

That's your whole trouble ...

You go out and shoot guns.

The gun that's never fired will never jam ...

The gun that's never fired will never fail to feed or eject.

The gun that's never fired will be perfectly accurate (how would anyone know otherwise?)

If the gun is never fired it's unlikely the cheap MIM or cast parts will ever fail.

So lock all of your guns in the safe, sell your tools and fixtures, and retire.

Your troubles will be solved ...

My consultation bill will be in the mail tomorrow.


Seriously: Put a little grease on the bottom/back of the hammer spur and cock the hammer by hand if the slide won't cycle. A grease smear on the grip safety will tell all. I think you may end up modifying the hammer spur, but you can't come up with a solution until you define what's causing the problem.

 

[bountyhunter]

My best friend for finding the spot where two pieces are unhappily rubbing together is a Sharpie pen. Mark up the suspect areas, assemble and go for it. You can usually see pretty clearly where it has been rubbed.

 

[Jammer Six]

Okay, I put a very light coat of grease on the inside of the "cup" in the grip safety, and ran the slide back.

There was no evidence of grease on the hammer.

Furthermore, removing the slide and attempting to overcock the hammer with my thumb also didn't put any grease on the hammer.

My conclusion is that the hammer simply isn't touching the grip safety, after all.

I ran these tests with the thumb safety pin through the hole, but with the thumb safety hanging behind the grip, because I haven't fit it yet, and it binds, and is very difficult to remove once you get it in.

Something inside is hanging up, but it's the grip safety, because without the grip safety, the hammer over-cocks happily.

What's the next step?

 

[Old Fuff]

I think you're going to have to fit the grip safety to the frame before you can go any further. Depending on the particular safety (Beavertail, Duck-butt, what?) you probably will have to recontour the back of the frame, and the best way too do this is with a little guide/fixture that (of course) Brownells sell. Remove all of the lockwork, and determine from the safety's manufacturer's instructions if any frame alterations are necessary.

Just for grins, reinstall the original grip safety and see if you get any interference with the hammer. If not you know the problem is in the new safety. (I suppose you know this anyway). Compare the two safeties and see if you notice any obvious differences (besides the shape at the back).

See Kuhnhausen's Manual, Book II, p. 151 for more information.

Brownells/Ed Brown Beavertail Jig = #087 145 886
Brownells/Wilson Beavertail Jig = #965 402 000

You want the Jig that matches your particular brand of safety.

 

[Old Fuff]

Another thought: Are you sure the hammer isn't hitting the grip safety at the base of the spur where the bottom/rear of the hammer is curves out into a radius?

Take out the pin and pull the grip safety straight back about .060" and then see if the hammer will cock.

 

[Jammer Six]

I already did all the filing to fit the beavertail to the frame, 'Fuff.

I wrote all about it here.

I noticed that the parkerizing is marked at the bottom of the spur, but I watched it very carefully, and it doesn't touch the beavertail.

I'll try pulling the beavertail straight back some, but the hammer isn't hitting the beavertail anywhere that I can see.

 

[BluesBear]

OK Jammer, where in the hell are you? You can't be that far away from me.
I have a bit of free time this week. Especially Tuesday & Wednesday.
If you want I'll be glad to drop by to take a look and see if my eyes can help you out.

Besides I never put strangers in my will.

 

[Old Fuff]

I admit that Blues Bear is closer to you then I am, and a different set of eyes might spot something.

Try another trick: Remove the recoil spring, safety lock (manual safety) and grip safety. Pull the slide back far enough to over-cock the hammer. Then see if you can assemble the grip safety by slipping it back in while going straight forward. Maybe it will go far enough to give you a hint about where it is hitting.

If that won't work coat the entire hammer with dye and then reassemble everything. Then cock the hammer as far as it will go, 15 or 20 times and then disassemble it and look for marks in the dye - anywhere. Something has to show up.

 

[MutantCO]

1911 Hammer & Sear.

O.K. New guy on block.
Name Muntantco.
Grad. C.S.T. Denver, Co. 7-18-02.
Up and coming hammer and grinder of firearms.
Only $15.000 for ed. and 3.7 gpa.
I hear the word YAVAPAI possable Ref. TO Prescott Az. G.S. School?
Any one of you hear of a guy name of "Jolly" or Mr Dunlop?
Serving as Padawan. To Mr. "J" as I write this. In Az. Northcentral High Desert.
I am alway's, listening to "old dog's" for new info and action's on G.S. work.
My hope of one day to be 1.5 of Mr."j" or any of those out there!
New and up and coming. Hope to speak to all of you sometime.
C.O. N.Cen.Az.

 

[RogersPrecision]

Jeff,
Sure sounds like a hammer strut or mainspring problem.

Mutant,
Sure we know Jeff Jolly!
What's he up to these days?

 

[Jammer Six]

BluesBear was over this afternoon, with his Old Lady, Lady 45.

He took one look, and pointed out where the Wilson hammer was hitting the S&A grip safety.

[sigh]

'Bear, you could have at least made it LOOK difficult...

I filed it down, and now it appears to cycle correctly.

More later, and thank you, BluesBear!

 

[Old Fuff]

Ah, but think of all the free advise you got ...

 

[BluesBear]

My pleasure. It was great to finally meet you.

It did have me baffled for a little while. It was just one of those subtle things that's easy to miss.

We need to go convert some cash into noise someday soon.

Hey I learned something today to. I learned that some Wilson hammers don't like some S&A grip safeties.

And at least now your hammer struts are out of danger.


And let me know if you want to shop hop tomorrow. I should be free about noon.

 

[Jammer Six]

Okay, another question.

If you have a hammer that has hooks that are right at .020, how would you go about making them higher by hand?

What happens if you lay a file with a safe edge on the large flat, and take it down, increasing the height of the hooks to where you want it?

How can you make the hooks .023 or .025 by hand?

 

[Old Fuff]

What!!! You again .....

You will probably get a radius in the corner because the file is only cutting on one face. However if you go for less then .003" or so, it may not matter.

 

[BluesBear]

increasing the height of the hooks to where you want it?

May I ask a question also please?

As I understand it that would work just fine.
However the sear would then rotate just a little more to achieve full engagement.
This could lead to a little slop in the sear/safety alignment.
Which means that if the trigger is pulled with the safety on you would probably get some noticable sear movement,
since the sear would actually be moving the .003"-.005" you increased the hooks.

But the bright side is that it would decrease some the take up on the trigger pull.

Oh yeah I was gonna ask a question.
It my understanding correct?

 

[Jammer Six]

Bear, I think you got it.

I think you're right, too, the thumb safety would need to be re-fit.

 

[navyretired 1]

Do these neutral angles follow? I always make my hammer shelfs slight positive so jarring from firing doesn't cause the sear bouncing of the sear shelf. Yes it does move the hammer slightly further into cocked position but doesn't bounce out. Mirror surfaces, positive engagement, correct relief on sear and correct breakaway angles are the secret of not following. 4.5 lb trigger is a great trigger 5 lb is better and less is an accident waiting to happen. Properly done a customer will swear its a 2 lb trigger till you show him the trigger pull gage is at 5 lbs.
Don't forget that several other things affect trigger pull ie: trigger friction, safety rubbing on trigger, hammer rubbing on slide, sides of all components rough need polishing. pins rough need polishing without doing these things you couldn't even tell if you had improved or made unsafe.

 

[1911Tuner]

Do these neutral angles follow? I

If also used with short hammer hooks...less than .023 inch...and heavy steel triggers? Usually...sooner or later.

Like you, I much prefer a captive hammer hook angle that tends to pull the sear back in should the trigger bump the disconnect or...if for some reason the trigger is pulled with the safety engaged and the safety lug doesn't positively block all sear movement.

And, you're spot on. Correctly done, a 5-pound trigger is deceptively light.