Hammer & Sear Angles

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I'm tired tonight, prolly not the correct time to try and attempt to express my thoughts.
But.....I'm too darn busy and my best hours are spent earning a living for my family.
That being said, allow me to move on.
Where to start......
Ok. .005" max fillet radius as found on the RIA prints means zero to .005" max fillet radius in the hammer hook root. So ZERO radius is within print.
The nominal hook height is .030" but a hook height of .027 is indeed within specification.
The print indicates a radius on top of the hooks to suit. A very moderate radius of .006" leaves us with an effective hook height of .021". Just what the hi-performance hammers offer. Not too far from what we might have found from the Colt custom shop of the 30's.
Just as modern automobiles have superior brakes, today's 1911's can have superior triggers. With no ill effects if set-up by a competent pistolsmith.
A very nice trigger is superior to an adequate trigger. Todays technicians have indeed improved on the original, as issued, 1911's.
When we 'improve' on a mechanical assembly we normally refine materials and techniques, in any industry.
True, a poorly smithed 5 1/2lb trigger is inherently safer than a poorly smithed 4 lb trigger.
BUT, a 4lb trigger from an experienced and time proven smith, is a thing of beauty and joy!
I saw in a local rag today an ad for 4 NEW TIRES for $100!.
Maybe on your wife's car.....not on mine. I'm a simple man but I like quality tires and clean triggers.
I don't want to fire 10k rds to smooth out a trigger, my customers do not want that either.
There is an alternative, a competent trigger job by an experienced and wise 1911 smith. Please do not get so wrapped up in one line of thought, to deny the existance of this.
 
Fine Triggers

Hey Raja!

No argument on those points. A fine triggered pistol is a wonder to behold and a joy to shoot. I've handled a couple of Abernathy's pistols with his special treatment, 2-pound triggers...and they're righteous. A carry gun with usch a trigger would be a mite ticklish, though. The effects of an adrenalin surge is hard to predict, and would vary a lot from situation to situation, and
from shooter to shooter. It would be a little like a cop cocking a double-action revolver during a potentially hostile entry.

Just my own viewpoint, understand...but I don't want a gun that only requires a "baby's breath" on the trigger to drop the hammer...For a target pistol, I do appreciate a really light, crisp trigger, but men who are both skilled and disciplined enough to be efficient with such a gun on the street are few and far between. I'm not knocking such trigger work...just trying to
point out the fact that just because so much is made of it, that many will
believe that a 3.5 or 4 pound trigger is just what they need...for a defensive pistol...and find out too late that it's a liability rather than an asset. Simply put...just another aspect to ponder on before making a choice. Such things should be carefully considered before making that choice.

Again...A civilian/citizen defensive action with a sidearm is more likely to occur at less than 10 feet in about 3 seconds from start to finish. There probably won't be time for more than a flash sight picture assuming that there's enough light to even see the sights...much less align them perfectly...
so the difference between a 4-pound trigger and a 6-pound trigger isn't going to make a whit of difference on the outcome. It could...as noted in the near-killing experience that I had not long ago...it could very well mean the difference between a man dying and going home to sleep it off. He probably doesn't have the slightest idea of just how close he came...but I do. We both won that one...If my pistol's trigger had been a pound lighter, there would have been no way in hell's creation that I could have gotten off of it before the hammer fell.

Just FWIW...Unless there are serious issues with the pin holes...it doesn't take 10,000 rounds for a lightly prepped trigger group to settle in and smooth out. Uneven hooks generally equalize with 3-4 light boosts and 500 rounds.
One of our other moderators...P95Carry can attest to that fact. Ask him about the trigger on his Sistema. I spent all of 30 minutes prepping his parts. :cool:
 
The attached images show one method of adjusting trigger pulls that used to be used at Colt, and also by U.S. military armorers, judging by a note on an Army blueprint (D5503839) of the 1911-A1 pistol’s hammer. The note reads, “break corner to obtain required trigger pull†with an arrow pointing to the hook’s upper corner when the hammer is held upside down.

As can be seen in the illustrations the hooks were radiused or beveled along the leading edge to facilitate the sear’s early release. In the process the sear is kicked forward and so clears the half-cock notch. Within limits the amount of bevel or radius determines how much of the sear is engaged, and the sear nose has little or no break-away angle. The images show a hammer I removed from a gun after its owner went a bit too far. However it makes it easier to show what was done.

While this resulted in some improvement over an unmodified hook/sear set-up, and was something that could be done quickly, the resulting trigger pull was not up to target standards, and in fact it wasn’t met to be. It may have been the only modification that armorers and arsenal workers were permitted to make on one of Uncle Sam’s pistols. It is unclear if this system originated at Colt or within the military services, but is was probably the first system that was employed other then simply polishing the bearing surfaces.
 
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Thank You!

I've been busy, but I wanted to write this post right.

I want to say a genuine Thank You! to you guys, in particular Chuck Rogers, 'Tuner and Old Fuff.

I've paid attention to everything everyone said, and I learned something from all of you.

Now, in the "Above And Beyond" category, I want to say Thank You! specifically to Chuck Rogers.

Two days ago, I sent an email to Chuck, asking a couple questions, and he sent me one answer- he said "call me."

So I did, and he graciously spent a half an hour taking me step by step through the process he uses to prep hammers and sears.

It is indeed a skill, and a touch/feel/experience issue, and there is still only one way to get the skill, but halfway through his explanation, the light came on, and I recognized at least one mistake I was making, and when we were done I was confident of the method. Now the only thing that remains is practice, and I'll let you know in twenty years how that's turning out.

I returned to the basement, and used what Chuck taught me to straighten out my existing hammer and sear, and it now functions correctly. It passes all safety checks, and the original problem, following when dropping the slide from lock, is gone.

That said, the pull is very heavy. I have no idea what it is, I only have the 4-3/4 pound weight set, but it's more than that.
So I'm going to sacrifice this set to the gods of practice, and when I'm confident I can do so, replace them with a new set, polished in with Chuck's method.

'Fuff, those are great pictures- I was completely unaware of the break on hammer tips, or of the break between the primary and secondary angles, until Chuck told me about them, and I can see how you could adjust the pull that way.

Since I now have a couple sets of junk to play around with, I'm going to do some experimenting.

This has been a great project, and the help I've received so far has opened my eyes in more ways than one.

If you really want to know how to set up a 1911 trigger, my advice is to call Chuck and post here- you'll get everything you need to know, complete with pictures.

Thanks again, guys!
 
Phone Tweak

Excellent! Congratulations and good on ya, Raja! I've got some takeoff sears
around here. If ya want a few to practice on, let me know. I THINK I've got a stainless Colt Series 80 rowel hammer with .026 hooks too. It was in an XSE...If I can locate it, I'll donate it to your continuing education.
 
That would be great!

More practice is better!

For the future, because I can predict how this is going to go...

I'm going to do a bunch of practice runs on trashed hammers and sears. Then I'll buy a Real Hammer and Real Sear- original geometry, the correct hardness, everything.

Then I'll do that set very carefully, and put it in my beloved milspec, and pet everything until everything likes everybody and plays together nicely.

Then I'll go shooting. And because I bought good parts, I'll be able to shoot for a long time. Years. Long enough to forget all of this.

So just think, ten years from now, we get to do all of this all over again!

One of the advantages of such a short memory is that you get to watch good movies over and over again. :D
 
Tuner!

'Tuner, you're giving me hives! :cuss:

I have my Beloved Milspec back together, and it passes all the tests.

It doesn't follow anymore, which was the original problem.

You can see reflections in the primary sear angle and the hammer hooks.

The hooks are a nice, conservative .023.

It passes all the tests listed in Kuhnhausen.

My brand new dial indicator says the hammer doesn't move when pressure is applied to the trigger with the thumb safety locked on.

Time to leave for the range, right?

Oh, no, not yet. :banghead:

There's one more test, the S.A.M. (Super Anal Marine) test, and it fails that. :fire:

The dial indicator says the hammer uncocks by just over a thousandth before it fires. :cuss:

I checked this set straight out of the package, before I touched anything, and it uncocked by just under a thousandth when it was brand new- it wasn't straight, then, either.

Then I screwed around with it, and when I got it nice and pretty, it didn't follow, but it would uncock by almost five thousandths before it fired. :banghead:

That was a long time ago, and I've done it six or seven times since then, and I got it back to where it was when I bought it, but it's polished, now.

If I had learned from SOMEONE ELSE, and I didn't know about your damned dial indicator test, I'd be done now! I shoot bullets, not dial indicators! :scrutiny:

But no. I had to come here, and learn from you guys, so I'm not done. I know, I know, some noise about just because it's working doesn't mean it's working right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. :fire:

I'll play with it tomorrow. If I have to break it down one more time tonight, I'm going to melt it into a puddle, take the puddle to the range, hang it down range, rent a Glock, and blow holes in it. :cuss:

I swear, between Bragg and this happy dance, I wish I'd never heard of North Carolina.

I will say that I'm starting to see how you have to hold your mouth when you stone the hooks, though...
 
Hives

Now ya understand why I...don't...do...TRIGGERJOBS! :neener:
I can be happy as a duck with about 6 pounds as long as it's smooth.

Go shoot it. That .001 inch of motion may be due to the tips of the hooks
if you put Chuck's radius on'em. If the hammer doesn't follow and the gun don't go burp...you're probably good to go. Remember to load a few mags with two rounds for the test-fire.

Don't get me started on Bragg. I gotta lotta memories of Hay Street and most of'em are a blur... :D
 
I don't remember having all of these problems ...

If you are still working with the original hammer the hooks by now may be advanced forward enough to give you what you're getting. Same thing with lowering the sear nose while "correcting" the primary angle. The hook's 90 degree angle (more or less) changes in relationship to the sear because both are pivoting from fixed points. If you are satisfied with the trigger pull, the safety lock's function isn't compromised, and the hammer isn't following down I wouldn't worry about the rest.

The trick is not to have a 4 pound pull. It's to have a 6 pound one that feels like four ...
 
Oh, no, Fuff, this isn't the original set.

That would have been way too CHEAP!

This is like the third set. Or something. I lost track.

Back from the range, after succesfully separating 100 bullets from their brass.

No malfunctions.

Field stripped and cleaned, of course, but I'm too tired to detail strip it tonight- I'll leave that for tomorrow, and I'll examine the hammer and sear then.

The pull measures between four and a quarter and four and a half, and I like it a lot.

What I really like about it, of course, is that I could probably do it again. :evil:
 
Post Cleaning Notes

Notes after detail stripping and cleaning following 100 rounds.

Pre-testing pull: Between 4 lbs. and 4.25 lbs.

Post-testing, pre-cleaning pull: Between 3.75 lbs. and 4 lbs.

Post cleaning pull: between 4 lbs. and 4.25 lbs.

The smoke on the sear and the hammer show clearly that both hooks are bearing evenly, however, it also shows that the half cock notch is striking the sear. As the hammer is a McCormick, the half cock notch is only striking the center of the sear, but it shouldn’t be striking the sear at all.

On the dial indicator, locking the thumb safety on overcocks the hammer by three thousandths, and unlocking it de-cocks it by three thousandths. This has changed, it wasn’t the case before going to the range.

Pulling the trigger slowly on the dial indicator, there is now two thousandths movement before the hammer drops- twice what there was before the range.

Dropping the slide from slide lock, it follows once or twice out of ten times.

The lesson I learned was that the angles only work in the weapon- they don’t work on any of the jigs. The hammer and sear need to be judged on pins or installed. Cutting them to the jig just doesn’t work.

Of course, now I get to do it all again... :banghead:
 
Pins and Jigs and Sears, oh my!

>>The lesson I learned was that the angles only work in the weapon- they don’t work on any of the jigs. The hammer and sear need to be judged on pins or installed. Cutting them to the jig just doesn’t work.<<
*******************

Get the frame pin set from Brownells so you can mount your hammer and sear on the outside of the frame... :p
 
Great lesson and even better suggessstion.

Either that, or you could call some semi-retired has been that says he can cut drop in's for a Springfield and only charge you 500.00 for the set and instructions to install it. I wouldn't suggest that though.

eprice_1842_47700707


Sorry Paul, I know you'll be getting the insane calls over this one. :rolleyes:

John, PM me and I'll 'splain myself. I'm going to go stand in a corner now.
 
Retired Cutter

>>Either that, or you could call some semi-retired has been that says he can cut drop in's for a Springfield and only charge you 500.00 for the set and instructions to install it.<<
********************

Ain't but one man that could be...but, nahhhh! I heard he quit smithin' and opened up a little jewelry shop down El Paso way... :D :D

He still rantin' and ravin'? :rolleyes: I figgered that his vocal chords woulda gone up in smoke by now...
 
I think it has to be the negative angle. It's the only thing that wasn't right when I left for the range.

'Tuner, that pin set is the only way I got it done- the hammer and sear don't go together on any jig, but they fit right together on those pins, and that brings up another question- if the holes weren't square, isn't that exactly the way it would show up? You'd need an angle that matched the holes in the frame, right?

He still rantin' and ravin'?
Click to expand...
Yeah, he hurts.

Well, I'm ready for the big leagues! :D

I'm done screwing around with cheap practice sets, I'm going to ruin a REAL set now!

First, I'm going to re-ruin one of my trashed sets, and I bet I can convince a pair of them to "work" for a hundred rounds.

Then I'm going to follow Chuck's advice and get a Wilson 337. That way, if I screw it up, at least I'll be screwing up a REAL set. :cool:

And that reminds me: this set was a set of what Brownell's calls "Wilson Value Line", but they are identical, in every way, to McCormicks. Even the same cast marks (or whatever you call them) in the same places. The same marking everywhere, the same dimensions, everything is identical. Now that Chuck told me what to look for, angle wise, when you line them up on a hammer pin, they have exactly the same rotation back to the hammer hooks.

They call them Wilson Value Line, but they're McCormicks in a different color package. And now you know. :cool:
 
Angle of the Dangle

Yep...That's part of why I don't do trigger jobs...at least not in the conventional sense. Too dang nerve-wrackin'. I've been tryin' to eliminate stress since I retired in '91. Stress is one of those things that'll kill ya.
My trigger work now consists of a little prep and polish...and fixin' other
people's hammer follow issues.

The reason that the Value Line and the McCormick hammers look the same is probably because they ARE the same...Came from the same unknown vendor.
 
Jammy,
Sorry I missed your call. Try again, anytime. It's a pleasure to chat with a mechanically competent individual with a good ear. :)
I CANNOT get a dead crisp 4lb. pull using ANY of the 'altered geometry' hammers that will not result in the ocassional 'hammer fall' on a 'slide drop'.
'roll type', yes. 5lb, yes. But neither are what my customers want.
I think you are making too much about the indicator results. I would disregard anything less than .004" or so, but there are other ways of evaluating a trigger job.
I prefer stock Colt or 'premium' Wilson hammers. I use a sear angle identical to a current Colt sear.
I'd recommend trying the above combo and boosting the hammer with finger strength only. You'll notice an increase in pull weight while you boost, but it seems to 'level out' at mebbe 2lbs heavier during the boost. :) The true weight is usually unchanged by the boosting.
It's a 'touchy/feely' thing.
That 'feel' is what I look for. Of course along with equal contact on sear to hammer hooks.
After that point, I incrementally increase the break-away sear angle until the trigger is acceptably crisp.
Then the sear spring is adjusted for both take-up pressure and final pull weight. I usually like about 20oz of take-up weight minimum for a positive trigger reset.
Now for the brutality. 6 minimum, hard as you can do it, slide drops. With no hammer follow. :scrutiny: I flinch each time as this is no good for the gun!
I like the Wolff sear springs as they require a good effort to adjust. This buys room with heavy-handed customers when they strip their guns. Less likely to alter the adjustment inadvertently.
This is a decent thread due to the professionalism of those involved.
 
Roll out...The Hammer

I'd be an easy customer for ya, Raja...I like a 5 and a half or 6 pound rollout break. Now, a crisp 3-pound trigger on a bolt-rifle is my cuppa tea...and 2 pounds'll do if I don't anticipate havin' to work the bolt fast and hard.

Jammer...I found a couple Colt hammers and 4 or 5 sears for ya...Origin unknown. Some are MIM and some are steel. I THINK I've got an old stock pre-Series 80 Gold Cup hammer here somewhere. That one oughta give ya what you're lookin' for if I can find it. I should be able to have it on the way tomorrow...Gotta meet with the fence man at the new digs so he can get it up by mid-May. If I don't get it sent tomorrow, it'll probably be Thursday. Gotta go hook up with ulflyer to figger out why his Colt shoots groups like a load of buckshot in a scattergun.
 
So, for us "mentally challenged", a rolling trigger pull might be one with a sear with no secondary angle cut, that you can 'feel' move away from the hammer hooks? As opposed to the quicker "break" of the "crisp" trigger?

I think mine is a rolling trigger type and not by design. :)
 
Update

Okay, after practicing on 'Tuner's takeoffs, (Thanks, 'Tuner!) my Wilson 337 and A2 sear arrived today.

I also replaced the sear pin and hammer pin, and smoked up the hammer and sear, and dry fired it a few times.

I have a new problem. (You just KNEW that was coming, didn't you?)

The hammer appears to be bearing on both hooks, it looks pretty good under magnification, but the hammer won't over-cock far enough to let the slide cycle.

What should I look at now?
 
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