Hand To Hand Training

[Sox]

My two cents, don't underestimate conditioning. In my KM class, when the new guys start out, you can really see how the lack of conditioning effects them. The technique and especially power falls apart after the first 3 or 4 minutes of intense kicking etc. Granted the typical real encounter is brief, but the more conditioned one is the more clearly he is able to think, maintain balance, focus etc. I started off boxing, really enjoyed that, but felt too constrained by the "rules." Seeking something with more dimension, I wound up in KM. My instructor, fortunately has a good background in the other arts and real fighting experience. I love it all, so much so, it is difficult to fit it all in to my schedule. Muay Thai, BJJ, and KM, with the focus on the KM.

 

[strambo]

Here is a perfect and timely example that self defense isn't a competition. Check out this thread in the general forum: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=329753

She probably didn't have any training...a well executed 2 day seminar would have very likely given her a better ability to end this sooner and with less risk to herself.

You don't need to "win" by any measure of the term...you just need to injure them enough so that they either are no longer a threat at all or impaired enough that you can escape.

 

[OAKTOWN]

My two cents, don't underestimate conditioning. In my KM class, when the new guys start out, you can really see how the lack of conditioning effects them.

Some times evidenced by a quick exit for a quick

WWII commandos were sent behind enemy lines to conduct raids and assassinations with only about 14 hours of H2H training.

I somewhat suspect they were planning on using the gun-fu more than the kung-fu

How many Krav Maga classes do you have to take before you have the skills to defend yourself?

A fair amount. The same with any other fighting skill. I simply think people should be realistic about what they are getting. Can you learn useful things in a seminar? Yes. If you are serious about learning to defend yourself with your hands, is it a substitute for long term training and conditioning, I don't think so. Let me put it this way: We take two people, one gets $300 worth of self defense seminars, the other gets $300 worth of boxing, (muay thai, jui jitsu, judo etc...) Given equal opponents in scrap, I know who my money would be on.

 

[Byron Quick]

I've trained in Tae Kwon Do, a bit of aikido, and jujutsu. Most martial art schools don't train students in combining their hand to hand techniques with a handgun. I am not aware of any that teach retention techniques. Retention techniques and drills are absolutely mandatory if you get in a hand to hand fight while armed with a handgun.

You might want to look at the force on force classes held by many shooting schools.

I haven't take one yet so I can't give a recommendation.

A story that illustrates the mindset of many martial arts schools:

A Brazilian jujutsu student once made this claim to me,"Brazilian jujutsu is the best one on one unarmed fighting system in the world."
I pondered this claim for a while and then replied,"That could well be so but it leaves you with two problems...finding me alone and finding me unarmed."

The most effective way longterm for someone who does not want to train regularly in a school is to study anatomy to learn the body's weak points. Basically, if something bends only in a certain direction, forcing it violently in the other direction will cause injury. One warning...many people advocate groin strikes. And they are effective...if they connect. However, if your opponent has ever been hit in the groin before, you will find that he protects that area very effectively. I don't tell people to go for the groin as a primary target but rather to strike the groin after another blow has gotten through good enough to momentarily degrade the opponent's guard.

 

[Tim Burke]

I know this because I spend a lot of time training with people who are better, bigger, stronger, faster than me. Self defense seminars can impart some useful tricks and help impart the correct mindset.

Well, the mindset is critical. A lot of fights have been won solely on the basis of having the correct mindset.
You will recall that the original poster (OP) specifically stated that

I don’t want to study a formal martial art.....I want to learn to fight off an attacker long enough to run away or employ my firearm....

So what does he need? He needs the correct mindset, and a plan. He doesn't need to know 14 different ways of handling a problem, and the ability to decide which one is the best in a particular situation. He needs a default response that will handle most of the scenarios that he is likely to face; a response that he can employ quickly, without dithering. He needs to drill it enough times that it feels natural; and he needs to learn to initiate it reflexively. If you limit the course to a handful of scenarios, with 1 response per scenario, this can be largely accomplished in 2 days.
No one is suggesting that that this is as good as a long formal course of study, nor is anyone suggesting that this prepares one for the next UFC event. The basic response in the InSights course would get you DQed in any sport out there, including the UFC. However, it does accomplish the goal of the OP.
InSights offers many shooting courses; their unarmed course is designed to dovetail into their handgun retention and disarming course. The idea of transitioning to a firearm is a natural part of their curriculum.

We take two people, one gets $300 worth of self defense seminars, the other gets $300 worth of boxing, (muay thai, jui jitsu, judo etc...) Given equal opponents in scrap, I know who my money would be on.

Yeah, me too. However, if the guy who took the InSights class spends the same amount of time practicing the techniques he learned as the traditional martial artists spends practicing his, I think you'd be surprised by the outcome.

 

[strambo]

If it is one of the better seminars (proven instructors, not just any hack) and it was a true life or death self defense situation...I'd bet on the seminar one. Martial Arts have a much longer learning curve and $300 would only get 3 months.

If "scrap" is defined as "bar fight", "sparring" or any sort of competition...then I'd bet on the one who got the boxing, MT, Judo and/or jujitsu training.

Tim Burke also raises the good point that you just don't have to take the seminar and stop. Ideally, and to make an accurate comparison, the seminar student would then come home and train 2-3 times/week with a willing partner (free) for the remaining 2 months and 28 days until the person taking the martial arts time runs out...then they have the hypothetical meeting.

If I knew I had to fight for my life and had 3 months and $300, and knew nothing...I wouldn't go to someone who's mission statement is to teach boxing (sport), Judo (sport), jujitsu (sport) or Muay Thai (sport). I'd find someone who's mission is to teach people how to survive violent situations period, learn the info, then drill it relentlessly until D-Day.

The hypothetical of course doesn't matter, your life or death crisis can happen any time between in the next minute and never. If it happens, there will likely be multiple options to handle it, not just H2H, depending on the person's preparations and the situation.

None of that is to say that boxing, etc. don't have anything to offer in terms of self defense, they do. It just isn't the most efficient way if your only consideration is self defense. You don't go to a race car driving course to learn counter-ambush driving. You go to a counter-ambush driving course.

 

[Rshooter]

WWII commandos were sent behind enemy lines to conduct raids and assassinations with only about 14 hours of H2H training.

And a lot of them died.

I agree that many martial arts training programs do not prepare you for street fighting and protection. I will also emphatically say that a one or two hour or day course in street fighting does not prepare you to take care of yourself. Most street punks have lived their whole lives fighting in the streets and know what hurts and what works. We learn that in the DoJo. I cut my teeth on the striking arts when blood did not necessarily stop a fight. I have trained but I have trained hard before it was fashionable. I have also studied Judo and some lesser known arts. In my humble opinion it is necessary to build on a solid foundation or it is sending highly trained amateurs off to do battle with animals.

Case in point......One day a guest instructor at our DoJo handed me a knife and asked me to attack him. He looked at me and laughed. He said "If anyone holds a knife that way I advise you to run". Then he asked me to hold the knife like a street punk would and we began the lesson.

 

[Timthinker]

JCook, there are many opinions on the subject of unarmed fighting techniques as this thread demonstrates. Please permit me to make the following suggestion. Go online and research W.E. Fairbairn, Rex Applegate and Charles Nelson. These men were experts in unarmed fighting. Next, read about Carl Cestari, who popularized the fighting techniques of those gentlemen until his untimely passing last July. I believe that this suggested research may benefit you in your search for effective unarmed fighting skills. Whatever you decide, please make your decision upon informed research rather than the passions of contributors such as myself. This cautionary advice applies to other topics discussed at THR as well. Good luck and keep us informed.


Timthinker

 

[Tim Burke]

One day a guest instructor at our DoJo handed me a knife and asked me to attack him. He looked at me and laughed. He said "If anyone holds a knife that way I advise you to run". Then he asked me to hold the knife like a street punk would and we began the lesson.

If running were an option, wouldn't that be better than going unarmed against a knife, regardless of how it is held? Did they ever get around to telling you what to do if the guy holds the knife like he knows what he's doing, and running isn't an option?

 

[MostlyGenius]

This thread has started to read like the SD threads on the martial arts forums. "My Style!" "No My Style!"

I don't think anyone is arguing that the dedicated study of martial arts is bad, or inferior to seminar training. It is a different approach. Martial Arts are development process, while the seminar format is all about direct application.

 

[Byron Quick]

Did they ever get around to telling you what to do if the guy holds the knife like he knows what he's doing, and running isn't an option?

Sure, you were taught various techniques to use unarmed. various techniques to use when armed with specific weapons including your own knife, and you were taught to expect to get cut. The winner of a knife fight is the one who gets out of the trauma unit and rehabilitation hospital. The fantasy of defending yourself knife on knife or knife/unarmed is just that...a fantasy.

I would not give most of the martial art styles I've seen very high marks if my goal was to learn how to fend someone off while I draw a handgun. Most styles' mindsets, philosophies, or techniques do not encompass handguns. When you introduce a handgun into a hand to hand fight, there are circumstances that have never been considered by the practitioners of a particular style. Get a boxing instructor, karate instructor, judo instructor, whatever instructor together. Ask them this question:"You're in a fight on the street and your opponent goes for your drawn handgun. What retention techniques would you employ to retain control of the weapon?"

I've seen a total of two schools in over thirty years involvement where the instructors could demonstrate said techniques...the Bujinkan and the Jinenkan. They are also the only schools of which I'm aware where black belt candidates are required to demonstrate basic gun handling and using skills(even here not advanced by any means).

Putting a handgun into a hand to hand fight totally changes the dynamics of that fight. Your opponent's main goal will be to get that gun away from you and shoot you with it. Your main goal will be to retain control of the gun and shoot him with it. You might be forced to take strikes that could be avoided otherwise in order to retain that control. Handgun retention techniques become paramount in that situation. Taking a handgun into close quarters combat without training in retention is begging to be shot with your own gun.

 

[conw]

Here's what I'd like to do. Like to, because currently I haven't got sufficient funds (still buying first CCW and accessories).

I think Krav Maga sounds great. You practice weapon disarmament and it's very intuitive. And you know no instructor will try to get you to learn a running flying dragon kick or anything like that...it's all down and dirty.

Personally I'd like to learn a touch of Kali, since I think a knife makes a good backup if learned properly.

After getting basic instruction in these, I'd like a good friend who's fit to practice with, and one of those torso or full body punching dummies to practice weak point strikes, etc, on.

I'm like you, I don't want to test my mettle - just strike, run, and shoot if necessary.

Seems to me like the best thing to do would be get a friend who has similar interests to practice with you and just practice, say, 4 or 5 different things. Like strike, kick, shoot; strike, kick, run; strike, run, shoot...

Like others mentioned conditioning is underrated, especially in an escape situation. So is mindset...if you already know the way out, running's easier. De-escalation is the best mindset, also. Anyway, if you practice gun fighting with hand to hand (safely, of course) you could really benefit doing it on your own.

If you want, google "Hammer Down Strength" and "Hammer Down Endurance" by Chad Waterbury for a couple of great conditioning programs, and also try sprinting after sparring or lifting weights for short distances (50-150 meters)...read up on Litvinovs.

Priorities, for me, would be:

1) Some seminars or training
2) Practice with a friend specific to my individual needs
3) Specific conditioning

 

[reppondj]

The first thing the Army teaches us in Combatitives is that the winner is the one whose buddy shows up with a gun first!

 

[Shadowangel]

I'd love to learn Krav Maga, but there doesn't seem to be any instructors in Oklahoma City or anywhere near it. I'd have to commute about 2 hours to Tulsa and back per class, and that's a bit much.

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

Krav Maga is fine, but the instructors buy into the hype that surrounds any system and it quickly stops being about real self-defense and they start getting into the complex moves that Krav Maga is supposed to ignore.

Tae Kwon Do is good (and cheap) if you find the right dojo that teachers the old martial style, not the new Olympic style. It will conditioning, arm breaks, escapes, etc, but there is a lot that you're not interested in included.

Muay Thai teaches strong kicks and close in fighting, but its a sport and traditional muay thai will incorporate some of the history that you're not interested in.

Have you tried searching for "Self Defense Class" or "Self Defense School?"

I've been considering doing a few videos with moves I like to call "Fight Stoppers" which are geared towards mostly unarmed combat, with a gun defense or two. My background is TKD, Muay Thai, MMA, and for fun, fencing! heh. That one doesn't apply as much.

But in all my experience winning an unarmed fight comes down to this:
Speed
Power
Confidence
Transition

They all work together. You don't have to be FAST to act with speed. You dont have to be strong to hit with power. Confidence allows you to fight more aggressively in your transitions, which are moving from one method to the next. In everyone I practice with/instruct, I stress speed of transitions.

Often in street fights you'll see guys grabbing onto each other and swinging, or kicking, or holding each other, and they do that for a long period of time, which is mostly ineffective. My personal keys are about applying one method and then quickly moving to the next with confidence, speed, and power.

I was going to give an example, but there are so many I always feel like I'm leaving something out. But a simple one that is often effective is when two guys are clinching/grabbing each other close, if you can get the dominant hold position (your arms are on top of his, or above his) it becomes easier for you to strike, pull the head down, etc, but importantly its also easy for you to transition around his body and take his back. From there, it's choke out time.

 

[Brian@ITC]

Good post Byron Quick! I have trained in both the Bujinkan and the Jinenkan and under good instructors I might add!!!

 

[Byron Quick]

The 'best' all around school I've seen is Kashima Shin-ryu. One of the handful of places it is taught in US is in Athens, Georgia at the University of Georgia by Karl Friday who is also a professor of Japanese history at UGA. Dr. Friday is menkyo kaiden in Kashma Shin-ryu. Menkyo kaiden is part of the Japanese certification process prevalent in Japanese martial arts before the belt system became prevalent. It has two meanings. The first is that you have reached a point in that system where you can self direct your future development in that system and do not need further instruction from anyone in that system. The second meaning is that you are authorized to teach that system. It is possible to have one without the other. It's meaning today has been described as similar to an academic PhD level of achievement.

Kashima Shin-ryu is a koryu which means it existed as a formal system prior to 1868...unlike judo and karate. Also, it is a total martial art. The curriculum includes jujutsu, kenjutsu (sword), tantojutsu(knife), naginatajutsu(halberd), bojutsu(staff), battojutsu(drawing the sword and cutting with one movement), and otherr components such as strategy and tactics. But part of what makes it attain best in my view is cost. At UGA about five years ago, the price of training was $5.00 bucks a session, all of which went to the University to pay for the training area which was top notch. None went to Dr. Friday or any other Kashima Shin-ryu instructor anywhere in the world. If you find a Kashima Shin-ryu instructor who is profiting from teaching...he's not a genuine Kashima Shin-ryu instructor.

It's not a system that incorporates firearms and I certainly don't advocate anyone training in the system that plans to enter hand to hand combat while armed with a pistol. For someone who wants continuous training in a traditional system with a history spanning centuries AND who is willing to add force on force training with firearms from reputable instructors it's a good bet. Certainly can't beat the price.

William Boddiford is menkyo kaiden and teaches, I believe, at UCLA in California. Like Friday, he's an academic professor and holds a PhD. Not sure if he's also a history professor. Google the Kashima Shin-ryu Federation if interested.

The fantasy of defending yourself knife on knife or knife/unarmed is just that...a fantasy.

I left out something I meant to say in that sentence. What I meant to say is: The fantasy of defending yourself knife on knife or knife/unarmed without getting cut yourself is just that...a fantasy. The Japanese term escapes me at the moment but when two Japanese swordsmen met in mutual combat, the outcome was very often mutual destruction. Often enough, that there is a specific Japanese word for the event.

 

[Jayman]

A few people touched on this, but I'm going to hammer it home, CONDITIONING IS KING. Sox first mentioned this.

Give me two guys that are roughly equal in terms of size, but one is a technique animal and the other is a conditioning freak. Put them toe-to-toe and I'll bet on the conditioned guy every time.

Yes, some fights are over quickly. But some are not. Much like many fights are settled with 3 shots. How many of you carry a 3 shot gun because "that is all you will need?"

If something bad happens, you will do what you have been trained to do until you run out of the juice to keep doing it. Do yourself a favor and learn solid pressure tested techniques, and get enough conditioning under your belt to where you can keep doing them. The Ninja Death Touch might be awesome, but if the first attempt doesn't work, and subsequent attempts get you busted in the mouth a few times, you better have enough conditioning to keep going, and perhaps a Plan B....

Not to mention, my favorite defense of all time, the heel-and-toe-express, requires some fortitude to make it happen. I've seen some "martial artists" who couldn't run 300 yards without an oxygen tank. (Heck, I've seen a lot of gun guys like that too.) It is a pain to go to the gym 3 times a week and push yourself, but the end result might just save your life. (Via altercation or reduced risk of heart disease, diabetes, etc.)